Some valve adjustment tips and tricks.

[PowerDubs_imp]

I bought a hotshims kit- but then discovered once I was mid job that the jump between sizes in the kit was greater than from the Honda factory.

So I ended up having to order some Honda shims anyway to get the valves where I wanted them.

If I had to do it again- I would just open her up, do your measurements, and then order the shims you need once you move things around.

 

[Lord Popgun]

Thanks for the advice PD. I’ll do that.

 

[Ben70_imp]

The kits will leave you with a bunch you don't need, and often not enough of the ones you do need. Shims are expensive, even for a Lord!
If you end up needing to adjust, for me the hardest part was wanking around in the limited space with the adjuster. No need to touch it if you don't adjust. Be sure to torque the cams to recheck adjustment. Don't just snug them a bit.
I ended up just removing the adjuster completely, performing the adjustment. then winding the adjuster in and securing it with a zip tie through one of the mounting holes using my ground off Allen wrench adjusting tool.

Then install the adjuster and secure it with the one screw, leaving just enough play to slide the zip tie out. Cut and remove the zip tie, the adjuster will pop out. secure the remaining screw and tighten both. Then I wound the adjuster out a few turns and released it again to reset it.
This may sound clumsy, but I got frustrated with my tool releasing unintentionally.
Don't forget to rotate the crank a few times to check your cam timing.
I had to try a few places locally for shims, had good luck with the Yamasaki dealer.

Ben

 

[max]

From the Honda service manual;



Made mine from 1 mm. copper, worked fine; find the slot inside the tensioner, wind clockwise till the stop and return until the wider part of the tool lines up with the four outer slots and push the tool in those slots to lock the unit.

 

[PowerDubs_imp]

Yea- I made one from thin scrap I had lying around. Real easy- as it doesn't take much to turn it so the metal can be just about anything.

 

[dave]

Be sure to torque the cams to recheck adjustment. Don't just snug them a bit.
Hi Ben, can you please explain why you suggest to torque the cams (I assume you mean the cam holders) as opposed to just snugging them up prior to inspecting the clearances? I understand that if they are loose the adjustment will not be accurate, but do you believe that snugging them to say 50% of the required torque will make a difference? I'm not sure about the CB1100, but my shop manual for my VFR800 states that the cam holder bolts should be replaced whenever they are removed. This leads me to believe that tightening the bolts to their full torque causes the bolts to stretch beyond their elastic limit, therefore requiring them to be replaced ever time they are fully tightened. Thank you.

 

[LakeWylieJoe_imp]

I'm sure he meant the cam holders need to be torqued.

Also, per the Honda service manual for the CB1100, the cam holder bolts do not need replacing once removed.

Be sure to torque the cams to recheck adjustment. Don't just snug them a bit.
Hi Ben, can you please explain why you suggest to torque the cams (I assume you mean the cam holders) as opposed to just snugging them up prior to inspecting the clearances? I understand that if they are loose the adjustment will not be accurate, but do you believe that snugging them to say 50% of the required torque will make a difference? I'm not sure about the CB1100, but my shop manual for my VFR800 states that the cam holder bolts should be replaced whenever they are removed. This leads me to believe that tightening the bolts to their full torque causes the bolts to stretch beyond their elastic limit, therefore requiring them to be replaced ever time they are fully tightened. Thank you.

 

[max]

Just a video from " zams channel", very similar to our engine but at 16 min. into the clip he loosens the cam chain tensioner and the chain loses sync? and makes the job more difficult.

Otherwise a very good technical guy but he makes the odd mistake which we can learn from.

Valve clearances at 105.000 km. since 30.000 km. at 24 min's.
I'm fairly sure it's 70.000 km. since the valves have been checked, Zams channel Marty replies;

"Wenn es nicht schon seit 70 Tkm funktioniert hätte, wäre ich auch nicht entspannt. Aber "so" sehe ich das eher als Feature als als Fail. Ansonsten habe ich von LKM noch nichts dubioses gehört. Vielleicht "höre" ich an den falschen Stellen. "

Hopefully my german was good enough to translate his findings correctly.
Thanks Joe for pointing out NOT to release the tension of the cam chain, i have not done so as well because i could not see a clear reason for it.

He also notices the camshafts for in and ex are swapped ( tuned? ) at 26 min. someone comments about this and he replies; bought secondhand at 30.000 km.

 

[Django]

Just a video from " zams channel", very similar to our engine but at 16 min. into the clip he loosens the cam chain tensioner and the chain loses sync? and makes the job more difficult.

Otherwise a very good technical guy but he makes the odd mistake which we can learn from.

Valve clearances at 105.000 km. since 30.000 km. at 24 min's.
I'm fairly sure it's 70.000 km. since the valves have been checked, Zams channel Marty replies;

"Wenn es nicht schon seit 70 Tkm funktioniert hätte, wäre ich auch nicht entspannt. Aber "so" sehe ich das eher als Feature als als Fail. Ansonsten habe ich von LKM noch nichts dubioses gehört. Vielleicht "höre" ich an den falschen Stellen. "

Hopefully my german was good enough to translate his findings correctly.
Thanks Joe for pointing out NOT to release the tension of the cam chain, i have not done so as well because i could not see a clear reason for it.

He also notices the camshafts for in and ex are swapped ( tuned? ) at 26 min. someone comments about this and he replies; bought secondhand at 30.000 km.

To release the tension of the cam chain is mandatory and also described in Honda's workshop manual. The tension would press the cam into the bearings and changes the measurement. We are talking about 1/100 of a millimeter.

 

[LakeWylieJoe_imp]

The only reason to take the tension off the chain is to facilitate removal of the cams. The valve lash measurements will not change due to releasing the cam chain tension. They are held firmly down by the 16 bolts and 4 holders. Additionally, when the engine is running, the tension is on the chain.

The step specified in the manual is not wrong; it's just in the wrong place. It should have only been printed in the cam removal section. There are rare errors in the manuals (if you want examples, I'll point some out). I'm very much by the book, but there is no articulable reason to take the tension out before taking measurements.

If you wish, you can prove it to yourself be measuring the clearances with and without chain tension. They will be exactly the same.

Just a video from " zams channel", very similar to our engine but at 16 min. into the clip he loosens the cam chain tensioner and the chain loses sync? and makes the job more difficult.

Otherwise a very good technical guy but he makes the odd mistake which we can learn from.

Valve clearances at 105.000 km. since 30.000 km. at 24 min's.
I'm fairly sure it's 70.000 km. since the valves have been checked, Zams channel Marty replies;

"Wenn es nicht schon seit 70 Tkm funktioniert hätte, wäre ich auch nicht entspannt. Aber "so" sehe ich das eher als Feature als als Fail. Ansonsten habe ich von LKM noch nichts dubioses gehört. Vielleicht "höre" ich an den falschen Stellen. "

Hopefully my german was good enough to translate his findings correctly.
Thanks Joe for pointing out NOT to release the tension of the cam chain, i have not done so as well because i could not see a clear reason for it.

He also notices the camshafts for in and ex are swapped ( tuned? ) at 26 min. someone comments about this and he replies; bought secondhand at 30.000 km.

To release the tension of the cam chain is mandatory and also described in Honda's workshop manual. The tension would press the cam into the bearings and changes the measurement. We are talking about 1/100 of a millimeter.

To release the tension of the cam chain is mandatory and also described in Honda's workshop manual. The tension would press the cam into the bearings and changes the measurement. We are talking about 1/100 of a millimeter.

 

[Django]

I'm sorry, but I guess I have to disagree. That would not be an error in the CB1100 shop manual, but also the CBF and some other Honda shop manuals I happen to know. Also the BMW K1100 shop manual I own would be wrong. All of them suggest, to loose tension for measuring the valves. For my CBF1000F there even is a special tool to release the tension during measuring. It's basic shop knowledge to do so.

However, everybody is free to make his own mista^Wdecisions. I don't count me out of that group.

 

[LakeWylieJoe_imp]

I'm an open-minded guy, and have been wrong more times than I can count. That being said, can anyone think of a plausible reason why the timing chain tension would need to be released before taking clearance measurements? There are three reasons not to:

1) The intake cam could be out of its intended timing position by as many as 3-4 teeth when you turn the crank to a TDC position to take measurements. The slack on the loose side of the chain can be taken up by the intake cam being forced forward by valve springs it is holding open, resulting in slack between the cams. You can see this happen when turning over the crank by hand--the slack goes from back to front as valve springs push on rear facing intake lobes.

2) The intake cam sprocket can jump a tooth while turning the crank. If this happens, you'll be forced to remove the cams to correct the timing, even of all your valves clearances were perfect. You'd double the work for nothing.

3) Once you remove the cover bolt from the cam chain tensioner, you get to install a new washer when you replace it later. Again, if the clearances are correct, you save that step. That's a small factor compared to the others.

The chain slack does not affect the clearance measurements one iota when the cams are in the correct positions and held down by their holders, any more than a burned out headlight would. The sole function of the chain is to maintain timing between the crank and the cams. Again, one may prove this by taking measurements with and without slack. I've done several times out of curiosity and gotten the exact same result. Besides, the engine runs with no slack, so it certainly isn't hurting anything to leave it on.

The shop manual does have you releasing the tension on the chain in the cam removal section. If you follow the steps exactly as given in the valve clearance steps, you'd be releasing the tension twice.

One example of cascading shop manual errors that show up over multiple bikes (proof they copy general steps from manual to manual in order to not 'reinvent the wheel' each time):

All of the fuel injected 781cc VFRs have a vacuum activated baffle on the top of the airbox that opens and closes to optimize airflow under various running conditions. ALL of the 1998-current VFR factory shop manuals have an incorrect test procedure for that particular system. The manual says if you unplug the neutral wire switch and start the engine, the baffle will be open under some fixed rpm level (around 6,000rpms if I remember right); the default position is closed. Every VFR800 out there, including the three models I had, fail this test. Honda even got me a new ECM under warranty when I demonstrated the failure of that test to the dealer on my 2003. Later, after i tested several other local VFRs, Honda admitted the test as specified in the manual was wrong. The throttle had to be nearly full open (in addition to being in gear or neutral switch disconnected) for the baffle to open. The manuals continue to be sold with this error, even after they became aware of it in 2003. It happens. By the way, the VFR manual does not have you take tension out while making measurements. Neither do any of my cars. It's not general shop knowledge.

When installing a new chain & sprockets on my 2014, my factory manual said to remove the gear position indicator as one of the required steps. That switch was far enough away from the front sprocket that it could be left alone; there was no reason to remove it, so I didn't. The job went off perfectly.

Anyway, I'm open to logic if anyone has a reason (other than following what may be a goof in the book) for releasing the tension from the cam chain before taking measurements.

 

[Tev62]

Sounds perfectly good to me Joe. Not too long ago I did the valve shims on my 1995 Triumph, 6 of 16 needed swapping. Luckily, they were shim over bucket so no camshafts needed to come out but there is no mention of slackening the timing chain for any measurement or replacement procedure and nor would I expect there to be one. It is ludicrous to suggest the chain tensioner and its little spring has any bearing on these clearances compared to the cam journals. I have spotted glaring errors in my 2018 Triumph Tiger 1200 user manual too, not uncommon.

 

[Django]

The camshafts of the CB1100 (as in my CBF) run in sliding bearings. That are those holders. The camshafts are specifically beded in the bearings. That's the reason, why the holders are numbered and shouldn't be interchanged. Nevertheless those bearings have some play, otherwise the camshafts couldn't rotate.
When the motor runs, the rotation of the camshafts perfectly centers the camshaft in the bearings. But when it stands still and is opened for measuring the valve lash, the tension of the timing chain pulls the camshaft in its bearing at one end of the camshaft and push it up at the other end of the camshaft. That influences the measurement of the valve lash and that's the reason, why Honda suggests in the Honda workshop manual, to loose the tension before measuring.

 

[Tev62]

Well I guess the next person who likes to follow the Honda way might do us a favour and measure the valve clerances before slackening off the tensioner and then measure them again afterwards. That would answer this question quite definatively.

 

[the Ferret]

The exact reason I barely trust the dealership mechanic to fo this job correctly.... when pretty smart guys ( as far as I can tell) cant agree on how to do the job.

 

[LakeWylieJoe_imp]

I've measured both ways, with and without slack in the chain, a few times as an intellectual exercise. Same results.

My feeler gauges vary in 0.001in steps (~0.025mm). The shims also come in 0.025mm steps.

 

[max]

Two good video's with very detailed info about valve checks and adjustments.
Valve clearance check;

And valve adjustment;

Hope this helps.

 

[Tev62]

I'm not keen on the way the guy is switching back and forward between inches and mm, it could make it unnecessarily confusing for some people.

 

[Scotty_imp]

I've measured both ways, with and without slack in the chain, a few times as an intellectual exercise. Same results.

My feeler gauges vary in 0.001in steps (~0.025mm). The shims also come in 0.025mm steps.

Well, there you have it! Thank you for that bit of information and experience.