Chapomis_imp
Road warrior
Crap, didn't know that. I bought a big bottle last fall thinking it would last a while. What happens to it after a year ? Is it still good say at 11 or 13 months ? 
Ethanol vs. Your Engine
- Thread starter fiscy_imp
- Start date
ClassicVW_imp
Road warrior
It is possible for it to last 13 months but you'd have to store it in a very specific way.
the Ferret
Road warrior
The question that concerns us as CB 1100 owners is, will it harm our bikes?
According to Mother Honda who built them and sets the guidelines for what we could or should not use in our bikes, we CAN use up to 10% ethanol without doing harm to our bikes. They are made to run on it. Plain and simple, black and white. It's in the manual, and has been for years. It's not an airplane, or a boat or a lawn mower, it's a motorcycle, and Honda designed it to run on this stuff. In some areas you can't buy "real gas" anymore. In some areas you can't even buy premium anymore, even WITH corn squeezins in it. Many stations around here are now 87 octane 10% ethanol only. Luckily that works in my CB 1100.
Whether it gets better or worse gas mileage, whether it costs more or less to produce, whether it's good for the environment, farmers or the governments bottom line could be argued here indefinitely with no resolution. In fact there is no resolution for the general public. There is nothing we can do about it. Certainly ranting on an internet motorcycle forum isn't going to accomplish anything.
I can't say whether I like it or not. I'm not a mechanical engineer. I'm not a chemist, and I'm not an environmental engineer. I get pretty good mileage on my bike. My bike doesn't stumble or miss on the gas I put in it. It's smooth and quiet and quite powerful actually. It works just fine for me. I neither like it or dislike it. I just use it.
I'm thankful I'm not in California or (gasp) Europe where gas is prohibitively expensive. I'm glad I'm not in post war Italy or Japan where there was such a fuel shortage that they ran their motors on pine resin fuel.I'm glad it's not ww2 era U.S. where you got tickets allowing you to buy limited amounts of fuel. I'm glad that it's not the 1970s anymore when you had to fill up on some days if your lic plate had even numbers and other days if your plate had odd numbers and there were lines around the block waiting for gas. I'm thankful I can freely buy SOMETHING, and as much of that something that I can afford, to put in my tank which my motorcycle will run on.
I know I will never see gas at 25 cents a gallon again. Hope to never see it at $5.00 a gallon again, but not betting against that happening, and I'm betting Europeans would throw a party if their gas went DOWN to $5 a gallon.
I know for sure, at a soon to be 65, I'm not going waste mental energy worrying about whether I'm going to get 3% less mileage with ethanol in my bike (according to Chip Beck, the only one here who actually owns a fuel station I think, and who seems to be a pretty knowledgeable fella). So I only get 204 miles out of a tank instead of 210. Are you kidding? I'm just glad to still be riding. :biker:
According to Mother Honda who built them and sets the guidelines for what we could or should not use in our bikes, we CAN use up to 10% ethanol without doing harm to our bikes. They are made to run on it. Plain and simple, black and white. It's in the manual, and has been for years. It's not an airplane, or a boat or a lawn mower, it's a motorcycle, and Honda designed it to run on this stuff. In some areas you can't buy "real gas" anymore. In some areas you can't even buy premium anymore, even WITH corn squeezins in it. Many stations around here are now 87 octane 10% ethanol only. Luckily that works in my CB 1100.
Whether it gets better or worse gas mileage, whether it costs more or less to produce, whether it's good for the environment, farmers or the governments bottom line could be argued here indefinitely with no resolution. In fact there is no resolution for the general public. There is nothing we can do about it. Certainly ranting on an internet motorcycle forum isn't going to accomplish anything.
I can't say whether I like it or not. I'm not a mechanical engineer. I'm not a chemist, and I'm not an environmental engineer. I get pretty good mileage on my bike. My bike doesn't stumble or miss on the gas I put in it. It's smooth and quiet and quite powerful actually. It works just fine for me. I neither like it or dislike it. I just use it.
I'm thankful I'm not in California or (gasp) Europe where gas is prohibitively expensive. I'm glad I'm not in post war Italy or Japan where there was such a fuel shortage that they ran their motors on pine resin fuel.I'm glad it's not ww2 era U.S. where you got tickets allowing you to buy limited amounts of fuel. I'm glad that it's not the 1970s anymore when you had to fill up on some days if your lic plate had even numbers and other days if your plate had odd numbers and there were lines around the block waiting for gas. I'm thankful I can freely buy SOMETHING, and as much of that something that I can afford, to put in my tank which my motorcycle will run on.
I know I will never see gas at 25 cents a gallon again. Hope to never see it at $5.00 a gallon again, but not betting against that happening, and I'm betting Europeans would throw a party if their gas went DOWN to $5 a gallon.
I know for sure, at a soon to be 65, I'm not going waste mental energy worrying about whether I'm going to get 3% less mileage with ethanol in my bike (according to Chip Beck, the only one here who actually owns a fuel station I think, and who seems to be a pretty knowledgeable fella). So I only get 204 miles out of a tank instead of 210. Are you kidding? I'm just glad to still be riding. :biker:
Chapomis_imp
Road warrior
Well said Ferret ! And I'm glad to hear that Mother Honda approves 10% Ethanol. I still have questions about additives. I started using STA-BIL brand fuel additive a years ago to winterize all my 2 cycle motors, mowers chainsaws etc. and what a difference it made. Mowers started on the second pull after sitting for 6 months (long winters here) chainsaws, well they started easier. I added it to my bike tanks in the winter as well, but never during the season until I went into a local marine store to buy some for winterizing and I got talking to the owner and he said that the boat owners added it to every tank. I guess my question is, even after hearing myself think, is, wouldn't it be wise to add it to bikes on every fill or is it not necessary ? We have 10% here and all 3 octanes available.
Also, in an earlier post someone mentioned that the additive is only good for 12 months after its opened. I have 2 bottles of STA-BIL. One is labeled STORAGE which says "can be used for up to 2 years after opening", even has a space to write in the date of opening (thought you would like that) the other bottle I have is labeled "Fuel Stabilizer and Performance Improver" (same brand) and has no such warning as to its expiration date. On the later the instructions say that for storage use 1oz per 2.5 gallons and for "Every Day Protection" use 1oz per 5 gallons. No question here, just FYI, but comments are always appreciated.
Also, in an earlier post someone mentioned that the additive is only good for 12 months after its opened. I have 2 bottles of STA-BIL. One is labeled STORAGE which says "can be used for up to 2 years after opening", even has a space to write in the date of opening (thought you would like that) the other bottle I have is labeled "Fuel Stabilizer and Performance Improver" (same brand) and has no such warning as to its expiration date. On the later the instructions say that for storage use 1oz per 2.5 gallons and for "Every Day Protection" use 1oz per 5 gallons. No question here, just FYI, but comments are always appreciated.
I was searching Google a few minutes ago to see whether I could discover the model code for the CB1100 EX (SC65?) and came across this FAQ on the Honda Australia website.
It says E10 can be used in Honda motorcycles manufactured after 1990, but is not recommended.
Luckily I can still buy fuel without ethanol and do so when I can, but it doesn't peturb me too much if the odd drop has to go into the tank. I'm with you, Ferret.
It says E10 can be used in Honda motorcycles manufactured after 1990, but is not recommended.
Luckily I can still buy fuel without ethanol and do so when I can, but it doesn't peturb me too much if the odd drop has to go into the tank. I'm with you, Ferret.
the Ferret
Road warrior
1990? That was 25 years ago. I didn't know they had E10 ethanol 25 years ago lol
Chapomis I use Stabil randomly thru the summer, and by randomly I mean once or twice a summer 1 oz per gallon to a full tank ( 4 1/2 oz total) just to keep my injectors clean. Don't think it's necessary though.
Chapomis I use Stabil randomly thru the summer, and by randomly I mean once or twice a summer 1 oz per gallon to a full tank ( 4 1/2 oz total) just to keep my injectors clean. Don't think it's necessary though.
Chapomis_imp
Road warrior
And the plot thickens.....
Can I use ethanol fuel in my Honda product?
E10 ethanol fuel can be used with Honda Marine and Power Equipment, and also motorcycles produced after 1990, although it is not recommended.
It's important to know:
1. Ethanol Fuel can damage paintwork - Take care not to spill when refuelling, and promptly wipe off any spill.
2. Rubber Fuel System Parts may become degraded more quickly.
3. Depending on weather, and the condition of the motorcycle, driveability may be adversely affected.
4. For marine applications it's best to speak to the boat builder. There will be issues with certain fuel tanks (aluminium and fibreglass) as well as hoses and other fuel line components.
Use of higher ethanol grade fuels may cause running and/or performance issues. If an engine failure occurs and a higher ethanol grade fuel has been used then repairs will not be covered by the Honda limited warranty.
Can I use ethanol fuel in my Honda product?
E10 ethanol fuel can be used with Honda Marine and Power Equipment, and also motorcycles produced after 1990, although it is not recommended.
It's important to know:
1. Ethanol Fuel can damage paintwork - Take care not to spill when refuelling, and promptly wipe off any spill.
2. Rubber Fuel System Parts may become degraded more quickly.
3. Depending on weather, and the condition of the motorcycle, driveability may be adversely affected.
4. For marine applications it's best to speak to the boat builder. There will be issues with certain fuel tanks (aluminium and fibreglass) as well as hoses and other fuel line components.
Use of higher ethanol grade fuels may cause running and/or performance issues. If an engine failure occurs and a higher ethanol grade fuel has been used then repairs will not be covered by the Honda limited warranty.
the Ferret
Road warrior
It does thicken I found this ( I'm cooking dinner now but will run out to the bike and get my owners manual after dinner)
Honda engines are certified and designed to run on regular unleaded gasoline.
Gasoline is allowed, by regulation, to contain a variety of additives. The same regulation limits how much of some additives, such as alcohol, can be included in the fuel and still be sold as gasoline. Honda engines are designed for good performance and efficient operation using gasoline containing from 0 to 10% ethanol.
E85 is an alternative fuel. It is not gasoline. It is made by combining 85% ethanol with 15% gasoline. Honda engines are not currently certified or designed to run on E85 or any other alternative fuel.
Honda engines are certified and designed to run on regular unleaded gasoline.
Gasoline is allowed, by regulation, to contain a variety of additives. The same regulation limits how much of some additives, such as alcohol, can be included in the fuel and still be sold as gasoline. Honda engines are designed for good performance and efficient operation using gasoline containing from 0 to 10% ethanol.
E85 is an alternative fuel. It is not gasoline. It is made by combining 85% ethanol with 15% gasoline. Honda engines are not currently certified or designed to run on E85 or any other alternative fuel.
the Ferret
Road warrior
Ok dinner is over and cleaned up, fetched the manual from under the seat
Page 131 under oxygenated fuels:
Bla bla bla
The following blends are EPA-approved and have been approved for use in your motorcycle
* Ethanol ( ethyl alcohol) up to 10% by volume
** Gasoline containing ethanol may be marketed under the name Gasohol.
* Methanol (methyl alcohol) up to 5% by volume. Bla bla bla
If you accidentally fill your fuel tank with an oxygenated fuel containing higher percentages you may experience performance problems bla bla bla
NOTICE Improper use of oxygenated fuel can damage metal, rubber, and plastic parts of your fuel system. oxygenated fuel can also damage paint. Damage caused by spilled fuel is not covered by warranty.
If you notice any undesirable operating symptoms or performance problems, try a different brand of gasoline.
Page 131 under oxygenated fuels:
Bla bla bla
The following blends are EPA-approved and have been approved for use in your motorcycle
* Ethanol ( ethyl alcohol) up to 10% by volume
** Gasoline containing ethanol may be marketed under the name Gasohol.
* Methanol (methyl alcohol) up to 5% by volume. Bla bla bla
If you accidentally fill your fuel tank with an oxygenated fuel containing higher percentages you may experience performance problems bla bla bla
NOTICE Improper use of oxygenated fuel can damage metal, rubber, and plastic parts of your fuel system. oxygenated fuel can also damage paint. Damage caused by spilled fuel is not covered by warranty.
If you notice any undesirable operating symptoms or performance problems, try a different brand of gasoline.
gossman_imp
Been there
I run ethanol in everything I have, never a problem. As far as phase separation is concerned, fuel sits in my shed in the gas can for that long during the winter without any separation, and in my boat from November till April and no issues either. And this has been for close to 2 decades. The only thing that I have noticed is that it has less energy and things are a little herder to start. And I live in Oregon, a wet and damp climate.Scoobynut_imp said:
flynrider
Road warrior
Yep. That's when the EPA started mandating oxygenated fuels in certain metropolitan areas (Phoenix was one of them). Back then, some brands used ethanol as the oxygenate and some used MTBE (an ether compound). MTBE was phased out about 10 years ago, so if you live in an area that has the EPA mandate, you have no choice but to use E10.The ferret_imp said:
I had problems using E10 in old vehicles with fuel system components that never envisioned ethanol being added to fuel. Post 1990 vehicles, I've had no problems, as they were designed with ethanol in mind. I ride/drive all my vehicles regularly, so I haven't had the problems associated with storing a vehicle with E10 (i.e. separation, corrosion). For storage or rarely used engines, I'd definitely go out of my way to find a non-ethanol fuel.
JustPassinThru_imp
Been there
I wouldn't put too much stock in Honda's "endorsement."
Motor-vehicle manufacture and sales has become a POLITICAL business these days. It started with safety regs...which of course on the surface were non-political. Then on to EPA standards - and when mileage standards came out, it was the EPA which was administering them. Oddly, most imported/foreign-based-manufacturer cars got pretty close to the EPA Rated Mileage; whereas the American Big Three Plus AMC, were in real-life WILDLY below.
Politics.
Now we have government DEMANDING the EXCLUSIVE sale of rotgut, inferior (by any objective standard) motor fuels. And it is GOVERNMENT which can block emissions or fuel-economy test results, or launch a witch-hunt sham legal investigation (Toyota "runaway" incident, which was so obviously staged a non-driver would know it). And GOVERNMENT, with moronic and senile non-technical legislators, want this fuel sold and used and want manufacturers to endorse it.
Honda no doubt is remembering what happened to Toyota when Toyota balked.
Motor-vehicle manufacture and sales has become a POLITICAL business these days. It started with safety regs...which of course on the surface were non-political. Then on to EPA standards - and when mileage standards came out, it was the EPA which was administering them. Oddly, most imported/foreign-based-manufacturer cars got pretty close to the EPA Rated Mileage; whereas the American Big Three Plus AMC, were in real-life WILDLY below.
Politics.
Now we have government DEMANDING the EXCLUSIVE sale of rotgut, inferior (by any objective standard) motor fuels. And it is GOVERNMENT which can block emissions or fuel-economy test results, or launch a witch-hunt sham legal investigation (Toyota "runaway" incident, which was so obviously staged a non-driver would know it). And GOVERNMENT, with moronic and senile non-technical legislators, want this fuel sold and used and want manufacturers to endorse it.
Honda no doubt is remembering what happened to Toyota when Toyota balked.
DGShannon_imp
Been there
You are missing a key point. "Made to run on it" is not the same as made to be stored with it during periods of inactivity. In that scenario, it is not a Honda problem, but an ethanol problem which in and of itself has a shelf life issue. And remember, the timer on that shelf life starts ticking long before you pump it into your fuel tank.The ferret_imp said:
On a side note, I have personally experienced damage to two of my bikes, due to ethanol. First was my 1974 Montesa Cota 247, which had a fiberglass fuel tank. The ethanol attacks the resin causing fiberglass delamination. Just do a few Google searches on ethanol damage to fiberglass tanks in marine applications to get a sense of the problems. The second bike damaged was my 2008 KTM SuperDuke. Like the Honda, it was "made to run on it", but unfortunately the plastic used in the bikes fuel tank was not made to hold it. Over time, the fuel tank began to swell so much that when you removed the tank for maintenance, you would have to lever and pry on it to get the bolt holes to line up again for mounting. The exact same problem hit Harley with their XR1200 and Ducati with Monster tanks. At the extreme, tanks split and leak. Again, do a little Google digging to see what it cost them in warranty issues.
I urge anyone here doubting the evils of ethanol to spend a little time researching it on the American Motorcyclist Website <HERE>. Better yet, join and support them. They are one of our strongest lobbyist for protecting motorcyclists from the actions of the often well intended ignorance that comes out of Washington. My plea would be that folks educate themselves, move beyond "it hasn't hurt me so it must not be an issue", and get in the fight. If you sign up, the AMA website alerts you to bills, actions, etc. that affect you and allow you to send pre-written letters already properly addressed to to your given representatives. It makes is super simple to get your voice out there.
the Ferret
Road warrior
Sorry DG, but it sounds like your issues are not that it hurt the motors you ran it in, but the materials the fuel tanks were made out of by the manufacturers of those vehicles. That is simply not an issue on the CB 1100.
I just don't see it being an issue. It hasn't hurt my cars, SUV, van or truck, none of my motorcycles, lawnmowers (with plastic tanks) , weed eaters (with plastic tank) leaf blowers (with plastic tank) my chainsaw (with plastic tank), my snow blower (with plastic tank) or the plastic gas cans I store my gas in. No one I know personally, no family or friends, have had an issue with it in any vehicle I am aware of due to ethanol fuel. If we have been using it since 1990 like they say, that's 25 years with no issues. BTW my son has a Ducati Monster bought new in 2009 and although he's had oil leaks, electrical issues, brake issues, and a locked transmission, he has had no issues related to ethanol fuel, and we've had his tank off several times to replace the battery because Ducati hides it under the tank. I know Ducati has had claims against it for that, but it hasn't been an issue for my son.
I'm not saying it's the best thing since sliced bread, all I'm saying is I am not going to waste my energy worrying about it, and will continue to use it (no choice around here, but then again it just hasn't been an issue for me.) until it does become an issue with me. I don't mind if someone else searches out un-oxygenated fuel, and I don't care if they pay 50 cents more per gallon for it (as has been reported). Everyone is free to use whatever they want in their own motorcycle, be it un oxygenated gas, synthetic oil, iridium spark plugs, Fram oil filters, or nitrogen in their tires.
If the AMA thinks they are going to get the government to quit making, endorsing, promoting or selling oxygenated fuels, they are spinning their wheels and wasting their time efforts and money. That ain't going to happen.
I just don't see it being an issue. It hasn't hurt my cars, SUV, van or truck, none of my motorcycles, lawnmowers (with plastic tanks) , weed eaters (with plastic tank) leaf blowers (with plastic tank) my chainsaw (with plastic tank), my snow blower (with plastic tank) or the plastic gas cans I store my gas in. No one I know personally, no family or friends, have had an issue with it in any vehicle I am aware of due to ethanol fuel. If we have been using it since 1990 like they say, that's 25 years with no issues. BTW my son has a Ducati Monster bought new in 2009 and although he's had oil leaks, electrical issues, brake issues, and a locked transmission, he has had no issues related to ethanol fuel, and we've had his tank off several times to replace the battery because Ducati hides it under the tank. I know Ducati has had claims against it for that, but it hasn't been an issue for my son.
I'm not saying it's the best thing since sliced bread, all I'm saying is I am not going to waste my energy worrying about it, and will continue to use it (no choice around here, but then again it just hasn't been an issue for me.) until it does become an issue with me. I don't mind if someone else searches out un-oxygenated fuel, and I don't care if they pay 50 cents more per gallon for it (as has been reported). Everyone is free to use whatever they want in their own motorcycle, be it un oxygenated gas, synthetic oil, iridium spark plugs, Fram oil filters, or nitrogen in their tires.
If the AMA thinks they are going to get the government to quit making, endorsing, promoting or selling oxygenated fuels, they are spinning their wheels and wasting their time efforts and money. That ain't going to happen.
Lord Popgun
Road warrior
Ferret,
I try to keep the nitrogen in my tires as close to 78% as possible...
I try to keep the nitrogen in my tires as close to 78% as possible...
Chapomis_imp
Road warrior
Growing up I remember my father "winterizing" the 2 cycle engines around the yard. Empty the fuel tank, start the motor, and fog the carb with mystery oil till the engine died. I assume it would have been the same if he had winterized the cars, bikes or trucks, IE: don't leave the fuel in the system if it ain't beein used. After high school I worked in a marina that hauled hundreds of boats in the fall and the process was very similar, whether it was an outboard, inboard or diesel. Old fuels, new fuels, additives.....adapt ?
JustPassinThru_imp
Been there
We haven't been using it since 1990. Only a few rotgut cut-rate gas vendors would cut their gasoline with five-percent methanol and five percent cosolvents. The major brands avoided ethanol in gas; and Shell made it a prominent part of their advertising.
It was 2007 when it was mandated and it was about mid-2008 when it started appearing everywhere. And while some users in some climates, especially dry climates, have avoided problems...recreational boaters; snowmobile users (including emergency rescue forces with snowmobiles) and users of generators, small portable pumps, Hurst Jaws of Life sets...anyone who's used small engines under harsh conditions, cold, damp, wet, rainy or snowy...has had problems.
I've lived in two areas where outdoor recreation is a big part of the regions' economies. And both places, they have had overpriced non-ethanol gas, sold as "marine fuel" or "snowmobile gasoline." Here where I'm at now, it's sold on Indian reservation stations and there is a sign that it's not to be used in automobiles in M--- County (where the Res is located). But they do make it available - because to not do it would destroy the boating and snowmobile-tourism businesses; and leave outdoorsmen as well as emergency workers subject to equipment failure from ethanol gasoline that's absorbed water.
It was 2007 when it was mandated and it was about mid-2008 when it started appearing everywhere. And while some users in some climates, especially dry climates, have avoided problems...recreational boaters; snowmobile users (including emergency rescue forces with snowmobiles) and users of generators, small portable pumps, Hurst Jaws of Life sets...anyone who's used small engines under harsh conditions, cold, damp, wet, rainy or snowy...has had problems.
I've lived in two areas where outdoor recreation is a big part of the regions' economies. And both places, they have had overpriced non-ethanol gas, sold as "marine fuel" or "snowmobile gasoline." Here where I'm at now, it's sold on Indian reservation stations and there is a sign that it's not to be used in automobiles in M--- County (where the Res is located). But they do make it available - because to not do it would destroy the boating and snowmobile-tourism businesses; and leave outdoorsmen as well as emergency workers subject to equipment failure from ethanol gasoline that's absorbed water.
the Ferret
Road warrior
Ok, a couple of points. The title of this thread is ethanol vs your engine. Up to 10% ethanol is approved for use in my motorcycle's engine. It's right there in black and white in my owners manual. If the government would mandate 20% ethanol, I would not put it in my motorcycle. It is not approved for that. It also says that right there in black and white in my owners manual. I'm pretty sure if I went out to my motorcycle right now, fired it up on the gas thats in the tank, and rode off I would run out of gas and be pushing before finding a station that carried gas without ethanol. Even if I could find it here, what chance would I have making it from Ohio all the way to North Carolina for the rally without running out of gas before finding a station that served gas without ethanol? I rode out to California last year and don't believe I stopped at a single station serving straight gas out or back. What are the chances that the government is going to back pedal, eliminate ethanol and go back to straight gas? ZERO! Absolutely zero. So like it, hate it, ambivalent about it, either way we are stuck with it. So why would I spend one nano second of my life worrying about it?
What's that saying? Give me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference?
What's that saying? Give me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference?
Chapomis_imp
Road warrior
LOL, I agree. We get what we get and don't have a lot of choice in the matter. From what I have gotten out of this thread is that Honda approves 10%, but does that make 10% okay ? I think for cars that get used every day its not so bad, but motorcycles don't get the use that cars do. As I understand ethanol attracts moisture, the moisture condensates and that's not good for any metal. Should us low-mileage users be adding something to every tank on fill up to compensate ?
