I did mention Lemming Corner. Didn't I? Rant alert.

[furious_blue_imp]

Now *that* I agree with.. sometimes things just do happen (that really aren't the 'fault' of the motorcyclist, or bicycle rider or pedestrian, etc).. we are doing a risky thing in a risky environment and I hope never to be caught letting my guard drift at that *one* time...

 

[Pterodactyl_imp]

^^^^^. +1. Sounds reasonable to me. Glad you gave your views, I like a challenge. Good forum.

Cheers

 

[emptysea]

Don't confuse "fault" with "responsibility"

 

[Cormanus]

First of all, thanks Pterodactyl for your original post. It's a great topic to discuss. Thanks, too, for the kind words. I've also really enjoyed meeting you through the forum and hope we get to travel many more kilometres together.

I've been troubled about some of what you had to say. EmptySea's post helped me clarify one of my concerns.

Don't confuse "fault" with "responsibility"

Thanks, Matt. I think that important distinction might be what's been troubling me about this discussion. I agree we all have to take responsibility for our decision to ride motorcycles and whatever transpires as a result of that. I'm not at all sure that everything that transpires is necessarily our fault.

Over the last week I have ridden 2700kms, mostly in the company of the esteemed Cormanus, a gentleman I met through this forum and whose friendship I have come to value. We went our separate ways on Thursday; Cormanus back home to Pomona, QLD, and me on to Sydney. I happened to mention to him that on my way I intended to ride the Wollombi, one of my favourite roads. Cormanus has not ridden that road but did recall that I had posted on this forum regarding a particular corner on the Wollombi called Lemming Corner
(see: Chill-out at Fingal Bay ).

In that thread Cormanus posted:
And The ferret posted

So before coming to the point of this post let me show you what I was greeted with as I swung into the entrance to Lemmings, heading southbound. (Those of you who drive on the "right" side of the road need to make some head adjustment).

To keep my own hide intact I didn't stop right there but continued another 100m or so to pull over on the right side next to the visibly distressed riding companion of the rider of the bike pictured above. Lemmings is in a remote area of the Wollombi. There is no mobile network coverage but a fairly constant, if sparse, stream of traffic. A motorist took the rider, injured but he will live, to the next town, Kulnurra, while I spent some time with his companion. Shock is an involuntary, and somewhat interesting, bodily reaction. If you have just seen your younger brother low side into ARMCO it can be expected. It can often trigger a denial type syndrome where, amongst other things, inconsequential detail becomes important to the sufferer. You know, needs to talk about my CB rather than next steps. I had to talk him through it. First though we moved the tail of the bike as close to the ARMCO as possible and recovered stuff like tank and tail bags from the other side of the ARMCO. We spoke for about 45 mins or so until I felt he was in a better place. The previously mentioned motorist was to arrange for a recovery vehicle and advise the police of the incident. I went on my way.

As I rode my mind was occupied with "Why Lemmings?", and that is the point of this post. First lets take a look:

What the rider saw seconds before losing it:

OK, it's a Honda 650, but check out the battering the ARMCO and its support posts have taken. This young lad wasn't the first Lemming:

Let me ask y'all (thanks Ridem). Is regulation and signage the solution to Lemmings or the many other similar corners that make life interesting for the worldwide motorcycling brotherhood? I suppose you might call them Death or Glory corners. This road has enough motorcycle specific warning signs, speed advisory signs, curve arrows, large red REDUCE SPEED signs, and other miscellaneous signage to almost equal the trees in the surrounding bush land. The speed limit is reduced to 80kph for most twisty sections. The Highway Patrol take an interest in this road, especially on weekends. My only conclusion is NO. Regulation and signage is ineffective. The wreckage proves it.

So where do we go next? Often to drink copiously from the comforting and drought free well of self pity: "Decreasing radius got me". "That gravel should not have been there". "The road was wet, doesn't drain well". "The cats eyes/road paint caused the rear to slide out". "That bloke should have head checked before changing lanes". "He didn't indicate". "Diesel spill". And on and on and on it goes. I've heard them all. Maybe even been guilty myself. Sorry old mates, it is nauseating self delusion. IT'S OUR OWN FAULT!!! ALWAYS! EVERYTIME! Perhaps the only valid excuse was offered up by Bill Cosby - "It was the Devil that made me do it". At least it got a laugh.

I look in the mirror and what do I see (apart from a passing resemblance to Clark Gable)? I see a bloke who sees an advisory sign as a challenge, a speed limit as Stalinist, road safety campaigns as childish, ineffectual and even Orwellian. I see a bloke who loves the scream of a revving engine and the adrenalin rush as the bike tips in. I've often felt heavy regret as I realise I have entered and exited too slowly and then marked that corner down for next time. I'll tame you I mutter darkly. My chicken strips fill me with feelings of disgust and self loathing. I'd rather wear a clown suit than reflector gear (sorry ferret). Signage, regulation, advanced riding courses, they won't help me. Furthermore, bugger the Brake Light Initiative - is the man mad?

It's in all good and true bikers. Is it in you? Have a good look at yourself. Tell me I am wrong. Go on.

Cheers

So, if you don't meet this characterisation, you're not "a good and true biker"?

I'm not sure that's fair. Might be true for all of at various times in our riding lives, but not always, and it may never be true for some. Does that make them less of a biker? I don't think so. Just makes them a different kind of rider.

This discussion also traverses areas that are about more than each individual rider. As has been noted elsewhere, the conversation started around behaviour on public roads. In this environment one must accept that one's actions may have consequences for others. When I tear around a blind corner, swing wide into the oncoming lane, run into some poor sod driving perfectly responsibly and kill myself, sure, it's my responsibility, but my self indulgence may well have harmed that poor driver for the rest of their life.

There's also the cost to society of cleaning up the mess: straightening the armco, scraping the blood and bits of wreckage off the road, dealing with hospitalisation and recovery costs of injured parties. So, in my view the regulators are right to do all that is reasonable to remind us of the dangers of our activities. I confess, I don't pay a lot of attention to road safety campaigns, but I often like advisory signs—particularly on strange roads. I think regulators are right to use them. If the consequence is that they are regarded as challenges by drivers or riders, so be it, but remember, it may not just be you who has to wear the consequences of your actions.

 

[Pterodactyl_imp]

Quote:So, if you don't meet this characterisation, you're not "a good and true biker"?
Allow me a little literary licence. Please. . I withdraw that and proceed.

Quote: As has been noted elsewhere, the conversation started around behaviour on public roads.
Not true. The conversation started about acceptance of fault, or responsibility if you wish, for our own choices. I did put "Rant" in the thread title and, knowingly, accept the consequences of a good rant. A hypothetical:

Despite regulation and signage a young lad runs wide and into the ARMCO. Does he say: "I took the wrong line. I froze. I didn't increase counter steering effort to attempt to change my bad line. I ran into the gravel. I collected the ARMCO. When I'm out of hospital I'm going to work on never doing that again."? No. He says (perhaps): "The rear tyre felt like it hit a bump. The rear wheel lost traction and the bike lowsided into the ARMCO." Hell and damnation, wasn't anyone driving that bike?

Another hypothetical: A car, without indication, suddenly does a u-turn and the rider, who is riding well within the law or reasonable expectations and despite best efforts, face plants it. Let the law, insurance companies or whoever sought out the detail, the fault if you wish. My point is that the rider would have been much better placed driving a Hummer and turning that car into a wafer. But if the rider chooses to swim in toothy waters then so be it. IT'S HIS CHOICE. Acceptance of risk and the consequences of that risk is required for an honest self analysis. The shark will never change it's ways. The way of the world I think it's called.

Some people find alcohol or cigarettes enjoyable but these pursuits lead to an increased death rate amongst participants and a huge cost to the public purse. Bit like biking really. Wonder if we, as a concerned and caring society, should do anything about this biking foolishness? But maybe that's fodder for another thread.

Cheers, it's not too early for a :beerchug:

 

[Cormanus]

Damn it to hell and back, Pterodactyl, if you're going to recant, where's the fun? Stick to your guns. Us wimps aren't good and true bikers. It's the stuff of a great debate.

I accept your point. In the first hypothetical the dude was riding the bike and must accept responsibility for mis-handling the corner. She can probably fairly say, "Geezalou (thanks for that expression, Ferret) I didn't expect that bloody rock/gravel/diesel to be there." But it is reasonable for her to acknowledge that she chose to ride a bike and that was a risk.

I also accept the point of the second, although, given that nothing is ever truly simple (except what oil to put in your bike) I think the second rider could be justified in being pissed off at the car driver, even if he or she must, at the same time acknowledge it was an occupational hazard.

I wouldn't encourage our 'concerned and caring' society to take this issue on any further than it has. I mean, we already have compulsory training before and after a person receives their learner's permit and restrictions on the kinds of bikes people can ride until they have an open license. That's enough. A concerned and caring society would have more people out of cages on bikes to reduce congestion and the rapid consumption of fossil fuel as part of the inevitable progression to getting us all pedalling.

Thanks for the offer of :beerchug:. Don't mind if I do.

 

[Elipten_imp]

Oh for goodness sakes, my wife will tell you everything is my fault. So I've gotten used to sucking it up. So it is my fault the cell phone using soccer mom while doing her eye makeup started changing into my lane then fine. Now where can I get that 007 license to even the score?


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[Cormanus]

Oh for goodness sakes, my wife will tell you everything is my fault. So I've gotten used to sucking it up. So it is my fault the cell phone using soccer mom while doing her eye makeup started changing into my lane then fine. Now where can I get that 007 license to even the score?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Now you're talking!

 

[Elipten_imp]

And yes there is a sense of humor on this forum, at times.


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[Cormanus]

And yes there is a sense of humor on this forum, at times.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Hang on. Is there some suggestion that there's no humour here?

 

[the Ferret]

Well If I understand what he is saying, I guess if we accept that once we make the decision to throw a leg over the bike, ANYTHING that happens to us is our fault, then he is right. Not sure I agree with that exactly. But anything that happens to us when we get on a bike is preceeded, by us getting on the bike.

I'm just not sure what he is saying. I thought his rant was against the man for putting up warning signs and for making us wear safety gear lol

 

[emptysea]

LOL @ "The Man"

I feel like he is saying "S#%t happens, just don't go blaming others for s#%t that you made happen." Then again, I could be wrong.

 

[rboe]

Naturally the best solution would be to rebuild the corner to reduce the risk. But signs are cheaper. If riders choose to ignore the signs they do so at their peril. Unfortunately society bears the cost of those mistakes so I suspect that in the long run it would be cheaper to rebuild the corner and indeed many roads are being rebuilt and a lot of "fun" roads are not safer and less fun. Most of these old roads were built for horses and carriages with no idea faster vehicles would use them and quickly became risky and obsolete. Those that were used a lot were brought up to spec. but low traffic roads have to wait their turn.

In the mean time, you will have idgits, intent on "being free" that will kill and maim themselves doing stupid things despite all the warnings. One can only hope they have not bred and passed their seed on before offing them selves. For the rest of us that tend to do stupid things from time to time, especially when young, well good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement.

 

[Novice_imp]

I thought he was saying simply don't ride stupid because nothing, neither road signs nor riding classes, nor anything else, is enough to correct for adrenaline fueled risk taking. For that we only have ourselves to blame.

 

[furious_blue_imp]

Before reading all of this, I thought I had a good handle on the world and its ways...

Now, I'm not so sure..

I think it's time for me to ring up the shrink...

 

[Pterodactyl_imp]

LOL @ "The Man"

I feel like he is saying "S#%t happens, just don't go blaming others for s#%t that you made happen." Then again, I could be wrong.

At last. Go to the top of the class.

Cheers everyone, and thanks.

 

[Inhouse Bob]

I just got to this thread and have only one point to make. It was Flip Wilson, not Bill Cosby, that said, "The Devil made me do it!" Thank you.

 

[ClassicVW_imp]

My points to make... Rant On....

Yes, I agree that riding a motorcycle involves an amount of risk.
But a set of warning signs is not the end all solution if a road or highway exit is truly engineered wrong. Think about this. There's a defectively engineered highway exit. Once a month for three months a motorcyclist loses control , crashes, and dies. Most would assume, and it would even be written in the newspaper report of the crash that the rider must have been speeding or not paying attention to the warning sign posted showing the decreasing radius curve, whatever. Now imagine if instead of three motorcyclists, those three crashes in three months involved three loaded school buses. I bet there'd be no time wasted for everyone to point out the 'outdated' exit design, and there'd be an outcry for the state to fix it immediately.

I think it's just too easy in most people's minds to blame a crash on the motorcyclist because (a) everyone's seen at one time or another, a reckless M/C rider zoom by them, and maybe also seen a gaggle of motorcycles at the local biker bar, and (b) it's too easy to think that 'hey, motorcycling's a dangerous hobby anyway'.

Paraphrasing Rodney... We don't get much respect from the general public, whether that's intentional or subliminal.

 

[Nortoon_imp]

Enjoying the twisties on the back roads are fraught with danger if you are not alert and responsible. Wolfe Lake on the Westport Road. Stone cliffs on one side, the lake on the other.



Take on ride on it. Wolfe Lake

Take a ride on the [url=https://www.google.ca/maps/@44.4627942,-76.2916094,3a,60y,247.64h,77.01t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2p5kdNHlrcXOGmZrh7pGqw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656]Burnt Hills Road. Narrow road with no shoulders, corner or speed signs.

Take a ride on the [url=https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.032031,-76.7379554,3a,75y,90h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s4k50xMRyPdQZePnLu408Ug!2e0!7i13312!8i6656]South Lavant Road. Narrow road with no shoulders, corner or speed signs.

 

[the Ferret]

I don't like riding on lane and a half's without a centerline. People in large vehicles seems to wander over to the center of the road making curves really dangerous for oncoming motorcycles. We have plenty of them herein my county, I just try and avoid them as much as possible.