I did mention Lemming Corner. Didn't I? Rant alert.

[Pterodactyl_imp]

Over the last week I have ridden 2700kms, mostly in the company of the esteemed Cormanus, a gentleman I met through this forum and whose friendship I have come to value. We went our separate ways on Thursday; Cormanus back home to Pomona, QLD, and me on to Sydney. I happened to mention to him that on my way I intended to ride the Wollombi, one of my favourite roads. Cormanus has not ridden that road but did recall that I had posted on this forum regarding a particular corner on the Wollombi called Lemming Corner
(see: Chill-out at Fingal Bay ).

In that thread Cormanus posted:
And The ferret posted

So before coming to the point of this post let me show you what I was greeted with as I swung into the entrance to Lemmings, heading southbound. (Those of you who drive on the "right" side of the road need to make some head adjustment).

To keep my own hide intact I didn't stop right there but continued another 100m or so to pull over on the right side next to the visibly distressed riding companion of the rider of the bike pictured above. Lemmings is in a remote area of the Wollombi. There is no mobile network coverage but a fairly constant, if sparse, stream of traffic. A motorist took the rider, injured but he will live, to the next town, Kulnurra, while I spent some time with his companion. Shock is an involuntary, and somewhat interesting, bodily reaction. If you have just seen your younger brother low side into ARMCO it can be expected. It can often trigger a denial type syndrome where, amongst other things, inconsequential detail becomes important to the sufferer. You know, needs to talk about my CB rather than next steps. I had to talk him through it. First though we moved the tail of the bike as close to the ARMCO as possible and recovered stuff like tank and tail bags from the other side of the ARMCO. We spoke for about 45 mins or so until I felt he was in a better place. The previously mentioned motorist was to arrange for a recovery vehicle and advise the police of the incident. I went on my way.

As I rode my mind was occupied with "Why Lemmings?", and that is the point of this post. First lets take a look:

What the rider saw seconds before losing it:

OK, it's a Honda 650, but check out the battering the ARMCO and its support posts have taken. This young lad wasn't the first Lemming:

Let me ask y'all (thanks Ridem). Is regulation and signage the solution to Lemmings or the many other similar corners that make life interesting for the worldwide motorcycling brotherhood? I suppose you might call them Death or Glory corners. This road has enough motorcycle specific warning signs, speed advisory signs, curve arrows, large red REDUCE SPEED signs, and other miscellaneous signage to almost equal the trees in the surrounding bush land. The speed limit is reduced to 80kph for most twisty sections. The Highway Patrol take an interest in this road, especially on weekends. My only conclusion is NO. Regulation and signage is ineffective. The wreckage proves it.

So where do we go next? Often to drink copiously from the comforting and drought free well of self pity: "Decreasing radius got me". "That gravel should not have been there". "The road was wet, doesn't drain well". "The cats eyes/road paint caused the rear to slide out". "That bloke should have head checked before changing lanes". "He didn't indicate". "Diesel spill". And on and on and on it goes. I've heard them all. Maybe even been guilty myself. Sorry old mates, it is nauseating self delusion. IT'S OUR OWN FAULT!!! ALWAYS! EVERYTIME! Perhaps the only valid excuse was offered up by Bill Cosby - "It was the Devil that made me do it". At least it got a laugh.

I look in the mirror and what do I see (apart from a passing resemblance to Clark Gable)? I see a bloke who sees an advisory sign as a challenge, a speed limit as Stalinist, road safety campaigns as childish, ineffectual and even Orwellian. I see a bloke who loves the scream of a revving engine and the adrenalin rush as the bike tips in. I've often felt heavy regret as I realise I have entered and exited too slowly and then marked that corner down for next time. I'll tame you I mutter darkly. My chicken strips fill me with feelings of disgust and self loathing. I'd rather wear a clown suit than reflector gear (sorry ferret). Signage, regulation, advanced riding courses, they won't help me. Furthermore, bugger the Brake Light Initiative - is the man mad?

It's in all good and true bikers. Is it in you? Have a good look at yourself. Tell me I am wrong. Go on.

Cheers

 

[Novice_imp]

I look in the mirror and what do I see (apart from a passing resemblance to Clark Gable or maybe Sponge Bob)? I see a bloke who sees an advisory sign as a challenge, a speed limit as Stalinist, road safety campaigns as childish, ineffectual and even Orwellian. I see a bloke who loves the scream of a revving engine and the adrenalin rush as the bike tips in. I've often felt heavy regret as I realise I have entered and exited too slowly and then marked that corner down for next time. I'll tame you I mutter darkly. My chicken strips fill me with feelings of disgust and self loathing. I'd rather wear a clown suit than reflector gear (sorry ferret). Signage, regulation, advanced riding courses, they won't help me. Furthermore, bugger the Brake Light Initiative - is the man mad?

I agree. Thanks for the pics. Pics and Youtube videos help me reign it in.

 

[the Ferret]

Self preservation is stronger in some than in others, thus some pay attention to warning signs and don't see them as a challenge. Some realize reflective gear just may let a motorist see you in time to keep from pulling out in front of you. Plus I think for most as we age we listen to the the little atgatt guy standing on the "ride safely so we can ride another day" shoulder rather than the squid with the wife beater t shirt, shorts and flip flops on the " screw it, give it the gas and lets see if we can survive this" shoulder.

I have a friend that spends everything he makes enjoying himself. He rents rather than owns a home, he spends rather than saves. He is in his mid 50's. Because he was a farmer he always claimed no income so he didnt have to pay any taxes. He wont even be eligible for social security I dont think. When asked about the time when he gets old and has nothing to fall back on, he says " this is America, they won't let you starve and they won't let you die without putting you in a hospital with free medical care". And while that may be true, I took a more cautious approach and saved 50 years for my retirement.

Some people just approach life more cautiously and safely.

Signage helps people like that (people like me).....it wouldn't help my friend.

 

[redbirds_imp]

Excellent post Pterodactyl. So much here to think about. Takes me back to the times in my youth when I often rode as though invincible, an attitude that "it always happens to the other guy". Good on you for taking the time to stop and lend what assistance you could.

A member of the Tiger 1050 forum of which I am a member, was killed the week before the Indy Motogp. A tractor pulled in front of him and a riding buddy. His buddy received minor injuries but sadly, he was dead at the scene. We never know what life is going to suddenly throw at us and being on a motorcycle certainly increases our risk level.

Take care out there.

 

[emptysea]

Simply stated, you can't base the effectiveness of warnings and regulations on the actions of those who choose to ignore them.

 

[furious_blue_imp]

There was a time in the dim past where I was more callous about risk taking on a motorcycle.

That tendency moderated a bit over the years, probably due to seeing the chilling sight of a bike on its side and a tarp completely covering an unmoving body, too many times.

Now I have interests that not only require that I stay alive in order to be able to do them, I also have to have my extremities intact and functioning fully so the little thrills of really pushing it on a motorcycle are just not worth it to me now.

 

[Todd_K_imp]

Bikes look terrible on their sides like that.

Given the thread title, I was looking forward to a story about a fashion biker's hangout

 

[The Spaceman_imp]

It's human to look for "the solution," Ptero, but I'm afraid in some cases there isn't one. Guys are going to ride over their heads, ride too fast for conditions, or, on rare occasions, ride beyond the capabilities of their bikes.

We can't "fix" riders, but we can promote ATGATT and rider training, continue developing safety systems like ABS and TC , and improve the riding environment with better roads, signage, etc.

You're a good man to have spent the time helping that guy out.

 

[Elipten_imp]

Exactly correct Spaceman. I have slowed down now that I am older and wiser. Things just don't heal as fast or well now that I am 58.

 

[Pterodactyl_imp]

It's human to look for "the solution," Ptero, but I'm afraid in some cases there isn't one. Guys are going to ride over their heads, ride too fast for conditions, or, on rare occasions, ride beyond the capabilities of their bikes.

We can't "fix" riders, but we can promote ATGATT and rider training, continue developing safety systems like ABS and TC , and improve the riding environment with better roads, signage, etc.

You're a good man to have spent the time helping that guy out.

Thanks, but I am certain that most members of this forum would do the same. The ferret would probably have produced a cup of tea as well .

Back to the point of my post. Let me look at some of ferret's points. Signage: it's a double edged sword that plays well in the the blame game. In some remote parts of our state where the roads are very twisty, narrow and dangerous there is very little signage. These roads have a sign at either end. This sign indicates, by a black circle with a diagonal line (similar to a banned sign), that the previous speed limit is removed. Under the circle is a simple notice: Drive Carefully to Suit Conditions. These roads compare very favourably for accident stats with very well signed roads. Nothing like not knowing what awaits you to make you work hard on what you can ACTUALLY SEE. Novel idea huh? Unlike a turn with a, say, 85kph advisory; for a slow coach like me about 120 is good and for the boy racers I couldn't really say 'cause I'm eating their dust. Sadly, sometimes ambition exceeds ability.

Next, risk taking. What has surprised me is the absence of challenges to my assertion that if a motorist knocks us off in an act of callous stupidity that it is OUR FAULT. Let me explain. It's our fault, on a tactical level, for maybe not scanning, anticipating or buffering. But if we have done all those things and the worst occurs how can it be possibly our fault? And this is where the lame duck "excuses" get rolled out. "He didn't indicate" etc, etc, etc.

Does anyone in their right mind blame the shark for taking a surfer who chooses to surf in a "toothy" location? No, of course they wouldn't. You might say "What in hell has that got to do with it?" Well, good folks, now is the time to take another look in that metaphorical mirror. You have chosen to ride a vehicle with limited self righting capability. You have chosen to ride a vehicle with no protective structure, no seat belt, no air bags, no side impact protection. A vehicle with a low visual impact (apart from my clown suit that is ). Look at the environment you choose to ride in. Humans will never ever stop making stupid decisions and errors of commission or omission. Humans will never be always able to apply themselves to the task in hand without their minds wandering to the mortgage, the family problems, the incoming SMS tone, the next fix or even the more pleasant aspects of our existence. We choose to ride in close proximity and often at high speed to humans in charge of, but often not in control of, lethal weapons. Like the surfer we choose to be vulnerable in a high risk environment. So if it all goes pear shaped we must accept responsibility for being there. Agreed?

Make roads perfect no risk structures, preferably straight. Ensure humans, both riders and drivers, make no errors (that's a hard one, but in the world of SF spookily doable). Limit speed to walking pace. Put trainer wheels on to prevent the low speed drop. Compulsory ABS, traction control, limit power, make bikes bland but very very safe. Remove all risk. Isn't that the ultimate goal?

How far do we want to go down that path? I suspect that not too many on this forum want all risk removed. My view is that if ALL risk is removed then I'd rather play lawn bowls, it's closer to the bar. Or the tea room.

Cheers

 

[Henrik_imp]

Just behind where I live there is a fabulous twisty road that has since a very long time become a major hangout for motorcycle riders. I have myself ridden this road so many times that I know every bit of it by heart and could probably ride it blindfolded. I love riding up and down there just to clear my mind, but I always leave a huge margin for the unknown because this is an open road. I just have no way of knowing what will be around the next blind corner, and I can't possibly know what the opposite traffic might do.

Unfortunately far too many riders do not take enough caution on there. There is not a sunny weekend that goes by that I don't hear bikes riding up there, and at some point I then hear the sirens of an ambulance. Often I go to a small parking area we call the pit stop to talk to the young riders on their supersport bikes, and try to get them to ease off a bit. Far too often they look at me like "who is this old fart who doesn't know how to ride?" For sure, many of them know how to ride very well, and thy would no doubt score good times on a race track. But it is a race track that they should ride like they do, not on an open road with blind corners. Seriously, scraping the knee over the middle line through a blind corner will eventually end up in tears.

I have done my share of track riding over the years, and I too enjoy getting the knee down while fully committed to a corner, but I would never do that on an open road. This is also why I so like my CB1100 because I can ride this bike well within the safety margins and still fully enjoy the ride.

Unfortunately there will always be riders that think that they are invincible, and that they know exactly what they are doing. The problem is, they simply can't know what others are doing...

 

[Blockhead_imp]

As I read this thread while watching TV there was a story about a motorcyclist riding on I-80 in Iowa who was hit by a wheel that had come off of a trailer that was being pulled by a pickup truck -- the biker was killed.

 

[the Ferret]

Excellent point Henrik

 

[The Spaceman_imp]

Just behind where I live there is a fabulous twisty road that has since a very long time become a major hangout for motorcycle riders. I have myself ridden this road so many times that I know every bit of it by heart and could probably ride it blindfolded. I love riding up and down there just to clear my mind, but I always leave a huge margin for the unknown because this is an open road. I just have no way of knowing what will be around the next blind corner, and I can't possibly know what the opposite traffic might do.

Unfortunately far too many riders do not take enough caution on there. There is not a sunny weekend that goes by that I don't hear bikes riding up there, and at some point I then hear the sirens of an ambulance. Often I go to a small parking area we call the pit stop to talk to the young riders on their supersport bikes, and try to get them to ease off a bit. Far too often they look at me like "who is this old fart who doesn't know how to ride?" For sure, many of them know how to ride very well, and thy would no doubt score good times on a race track. But it is a race track that they should ride like they do, not on an open road with blind corners. Seriously, scraping the knee over the middle line through a blind corner will eventually end up in tears.

I have done my share of track riding over the years, and I too enjoy getting the knee down while fully committed to a corner, but I would never do that on an open road. This is also why I so like my CB1100 because I can ride this bike well within the safety margins and still fully enjoy the ride.

Unfortunately there will always be riders that think that they are invincible, and that they know exactly what they are doing. The problem is, they simply can't know what others are doing...

Which, if I may, might be Ptero's point: you don't blame the shark for biting the leg that looks like a fish. You assume the cagers are out to kill you, and if they've got a shot at you, they'll take it. I saw the old bat who drove out of a mall parking lot straight into my bike coming, and I assumed she'd stop. She didn't, as a result she made "ass-fault out of you and me."

 

[Elipten_imp]

Public roads are not places for pseudo racing. Public roads are just that and the "public" has a wide range of driving skills (young,mold, good eyes, poor eyes, very skilled, students in training, and etc). When you push the limits on a public road, the "public" is one factor you must account for. Tracks significantly reduce these and other issues.

Pseudo racing belongs on the track, for cars and motorcycles alike.

For street riding, there is always significant risk we the motorcycle rider cannot control. If unwilling to accept the risk, then park the bike. But if you push your driving reducing your risk margin, at some point the accident will occur due to changing risk conditions. So ride with enough safety margin for changing conditions.




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[Pterodactyl_imp]

Public roads are not places for pseudo racing. Public roads are just that and the "public" has a wide range of driving skills (young,mold, good eyes, poor eyes, very skilled, students in training, and etc). When you push the limits on a public road, the "public" is one factor you must account for. Tracks significantly reduce these and other issues.

Pseudo racing belongs on the track, for cars and motorcycles alike.

For street riding, there is always significant risk we the motorcycle rider cannot control. If unwilling to accept the risk, then park the bike. But if you push your driving reducing your risk margin, at some point the accident will occur due to changing risk conditions. So ride with enough safety margin for changing conditions.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Very few get the point of my post. I am sure it is because I am too obtuse or don't express my self clearly. Let me try to keep it simple. Below I use the word "you" in the generic, not personal sense.

Stopped at traffic lights you are rear ended. In traffic on the freeway you are pushed off by a sudden an un-indicated lane change. Who's fault? In the tactical sense the motorist. No use whinging about it though. Just man up and say it is my fault for riding a motorbike in an environment I cannot fully control. IT'S MY FAULT.

As for street racing. Shouldn't happen but it does (Just put "Tail of the Dragon - crashes" into Youtube if you don't believe me). If you are committed to a line because you choose to leave no margin (as some do) and, lo and behold, a motorist, for whatever reason, appears on your side of the road it's the same deal. No use whinging about it though. Just man up and say it is my fault for riding a motorbike in an environment I cannot fully control. IT'S MY FAULT.

Even if your not racing and just tootling around a normal old corner and a head on situation occurs it's the same deal. You are poorly placed on a bike. But mate, you chose to ride. Wear it or improve your chances with a Humvee or whatever. No use whinging about it though. Just man up and say it is my fault for riding a motorbike in an environment I cannot fully control. IT'S MY FAULT.

Agreed? If not then I believe you are living in cloud cuckoo land. In conclusion I think when you, as a motorcyclist, look in the metaphorical mirror you are looking at a risk taker. Don't complain if it goes pear shaped. Just man up and say it is my fault for riding a motorbike in an environment I cannot fully control. IT'S MY FAULT.

Cheers

 

[furious_blue_imp]

Public roads are not places for pseudo racing. Public roads are just that and the "public" has a wide range of driving skills (young,mold, good eyes, poor eyes, very skilled, students in training, and etc). When you push the limits on a public road, the "public" is one factor you must account for. Tracks significantly reduce these and other issues.

Pseudo racing belongs on the track, for cars and motorcycles alike.

For street riding, there is always significant risk we the motorcycle rider cannot control. If unwilling to accept the risk, then park the bike. But if you push your driving reducing your risk margin, at some point the accident will occur due to changing risk conditions. So ride with enough safety margin for changing conditions.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Very few get the point of my post. I am sure it is because I am too obtuse or don't express my self clearly. Let me try to keep it simple. Below I use the word "you" in the generic, not personal sense.

Stopped at traffic lights you are rear ended. In traffic on the freeway you are pushed off by a sudden an un-indicated lane change. Who's fault? In the tactical sense the motorist. No use whinging about it though. Just man up and say it is my fault for riding a motorbike in an environment I cannot fully control. IT'S MY FAULT.

As for street racing. Shouldn't happen but it does (Just put "Tail of the Dragon - crashes" into Youtube if you don't believe me). If you are committed to a line because you choose to leave no margin (as some do) and, lo and behold, a motorist, for whatever reason, appears on your side of the road it's the same deal. No use whinging about it though. Just man up and say it is my fault for riding a motorbike in an environment I cannot fully control. IT'S MY FAULT.

Even if your not racing and just tootling around a normal old corner and a head on situation occurs it's the same deal. You are poorly placed on a bike. But mate, you chose to ride. Wear it or improve your chances with a Humvee or whatever. No use whinging about it though. Just man up and say it is my fault for riding a motorbike in an environment I cannot fully control. IT'S MY FAULT.

Agreed? If not then I believe you are living in cloud cuckoo land. In conclusion I think when you, as a motorcyclist, look in the metaphorical mirror you are looking at a risk taker. Don't complain if it goes pear shaped. Just man up and say it is my fault for riding a motorbike in an environment I cannot fully control. IT'S MY FAULT.

Cheers

I don't think that I agree with that idea. It kind of validates the point of view of those that say, about ANY kind of motorcycle mishap: "that's what they get for riding motorcycles"...

Applicable in some instances, but not all.

 

[Pterodactyl_imp]

Take ownership mate, it comes with the territory. It's not "They", it's "Us".

Cheers

 

[furious_blue_imp]

Take ownership mate, it comes with the territory. It's not "They", it's "Us".

Cheers

Well, if it were so true in all cases, then motorcycles would be impossible to insure against collision because the motorcyclist would have to pay in every case, and no insurance company is going to get into a game like *that*.

What I do feel is that those that try and blame some *other* factor for why they crashed, in *every* instance, are kidding themselves (e.g. "it was cold tires to blame"). But taking the complete opposite side of that is just as faulty (e.g. "it doesn't matter that that piano fell out of the sky and landed in front of you, YOU were on a motorcycle so it's your fault).

 

[Pterodactyl_imp]

Sorry, I'm not good with Tapatalk. Deserve? Definitely not. It just happens. Non motorcyclists may derive a sense of Shadenfreude, but they would feel that way about Shane McCockey. No empathy I suppose.

Cheers
The piano? In a sense yes. It's a matter of risk management. I think the day pianos fall from the sky a Hummer is the best choice of transport. But then again that's not much good when a big rig comes into play. Don't confuse fault with the legal "fault".


Cheers