Honda dealer shop gouged my frame

[QUINTtastic_imp]

Hi all. While taking my engine out, a Honda dealer gouged up my frame big time.

I’d like to make them fix it right, such as sending the frame out. But I don’t want to lose my bike all summer. It’s my baby and the only modern bike I enjoy. Plus I don’t really trust them to reassemble it and torque everything properly.

As much as it sucks, they want to just prep and paint the affected areas. I’m thinking if it’s not to my satisfaction afterwards that I will take it to small claims court. What are your thoughts?

 

[max]

Tend to agree with your last suggestion, taking it out of the frame seems like a repeat of the first "job".

There may be an option to do this out of season and cover the area's with some protection in the mean time, wax or black electrical tape, if it was me i would quietly check all the bolts they have worked on to see if they are not loose just to be sure, nobody is perfect but two people independently checking the same job can get pretty close.
Also on pic no5 the wiring is routed behind the swingarm shaft on my bike, not in between the engine and the swingarm and ends up behind the rh sidepanel's cover, i can make a picture if you wish.

 

[Cormanus]

QUINTtastic, I'd have thought you might want to be a bit careful about allowing them to do one thing and then trying to force them to do another. Unless you are really clear at the outset that, if they do it and you're not satisfied, you'll want it redone properly. If the frame is sufficiently damaged, I'd have thought they ought to replace it. If the damage is merely cosmetic, maybe prep and painting is sufficient. However, to do that properly they will likely need to take the engine out again. However, they should do it forthwith and lend you a bike while yours is being fixed.

As for checking the torquing of the bolts, max is on the money: if you don't trust them, you'll just have to check them.

 

[GoldOxide_imp]

Tend to agree with your last suggestion, taking it out of the frame seems like a repeat of the first "job".

There may be an option to do this out of season and cover the area's with some protection in the mean time, wax or black electrical tape, if it was me i would quietly check all the bolts they have worked on to see if they are not loose just to be sure, nobody is perfect but two people independently checking the same job can get pretty close.
Also on pic no5 the wiring is routed behind the swingarm shaft on my bike, not in between the engine and the swingarm and ends up behind the rh sidepanel's cover, i can make a picture if you wish.

Good find Max. That cable looks precarious in that position - almost looks like asking to be pinched in some manner.

 

[Frulk_imp]

I’m curious why the motor had to be removed.

 

[peterbaron]

Can we have some final feedback about your engine problems??, please.

http://cb1100forum.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=13287

 

[2017EX_imp]

Kudos to Max for the good catch, noticing the improperly routed wiring. I have included a picture below of my bike showing correct routing. It looks to me like your current incorrect routing is a wire chafing problem just waiting to happen. Along with others, I am also curios to know why your engine was pulled.

Back in the day, with a lot less knowledge and tools than a supposedly professional motorcycle shop mechanic, with the help of my Father, I pulled the engine on my 1974 CB750 Four to replace the valve cover with a chrome version. Using care, and duct taping vulnerable areas on the frame, I had no cosmetic damage when the job was complete. I agree that what they did to your frame, although cosmetic, is unacceptable.

If the damage has gone through the paint to bare metal, you definitely dont want those places to rust, so if proper repairs wont be done until after riding season, those areas should be cleaned and sealed. If the shop you used did that kind of damage, I dont think I would trust them to do the restoration. In order to do it right, the engine will need to be pulled and re-installed again. So, if it was me, I would thoroughly document everything as it is now. Next I would take it to a professional custom motorcycle shop or a shop that specializes in motorcycle restorations, and get a repair estimate. Present the estimate to the shop that damaged your bike, and see if they will pay it. If they say no, I would pay to have the repair done right myself with another shop, then take the shop that damaged your bike to small claims court.

 

[QUINTtastic_imp]

Tend to agree with your last suggestion, taking it out of the frame seems like a repeat of the first "job".

There may be an option to do this out of season and cover the area's with some protection in the mean time, wax or black electrical tape, if it was me i would quietly check all the bolts they have worked on to see if they are not loose just to be sure, nobody is perfect but two people independently checking the same job can get pretty close.
Also on pic no5 the wiring is routed behind the swingarm shaft on my bike, not in between the engine and the swingarm and ends up behind the rh sidepanel's cover, i can make a picture if you wish.

Hey man thanks! A photo would help. There were a couple wiring issues I had them fix the first time. Over the course of the rebuild they kept having me come in to test ride and take home but I kept having to say hey, no, this this is still vibrating insanely. It was ridiculous.


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QUINTtastic, I'd have thought you might want to be a bit careful about allowing them to do one thing and then trying to force them to do another. Unless you are really clear at the outset that, if they do it and you're not satisfied, you'll want it redone properly. If the frame is sufficiently damaged, I'd have thought they ought to replace it. If the damage is merely cosmetic, maybe prep and painting is sufficient. However, to do that properly they will likely need to take the engine out again. However, they should do it forthwith and lend you a bike while yours is being fixed.

As for checking the torquing of the bolts, max is on the money: if you don't trust them, you'll just have to check them.

Very true. An out of season job would be ideal. I just don’t trust them. Of course it’s gonna cost them a ton and of course it’s gonna take a lot of time and be a huge pain, but they should think of that before they fail to protect a frame while an engine goes in and out..

The thing is I’m planning on moving from NY to Oregon by the years end so.. we shall see. I spoke with Honda USA again today and got someone who cared and took it seriously. So waiting for their case manager to contact me.

I told the shop hold off on the repair until I hear from Honda.


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I’m curious why the motor had to be removed.

Ugh.. I was the lucky guy who despite doing all regular preventative maintenance and caring a great deal for my bike.. at 11k miles I had MASSIVE vibration issues. Hairs standing on end.. uncomfortable to ride.. Turns out massive carbon buildup on pistons causes a valve to hit and bend which also messed up other things. They replaced pistons, honed cylinder walls, replaced valves, bearings, and other things. And the other day a fuel relay went.. I must have bought the bike made on a Friday at the Honda factory.


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Can we have some final feedback about your engine problems??, please.

http://cb1100forum.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=13287

Yes sorry! So I brought my bike in last August and couldn’t take it home in the winter, but regardless it wasn’t finished until a few weeks ago. Numerous times they had me go in to test ride it with hopes I’d pay and take it. Each time, things weren’t right. Bike still vibed so much the key ring was bouncing around, or there was a squealing sound so loud you couldn’t hear anything else. I told them about that, they gave some bull crap explanation and said it’ll go away, and a month later they hadn’t fixed it.. so I made them figure that out. Honda did pay for parts. And I paid for labor. I paid 1500. I think they only made me pay 1500 because there’s some guilt they won’t speak of. My MPG was 34 when I brought the bike in. Down from the normal 45-47. So now the rings have been getting worn in now and I’m up to 40.. but I doubt it’ll go much past that ever. I was doing my first big detail, toothbrush and all, and that’s when I noticed they gouged up my frame. They’re calling it just superficial scratches... so I’m extremely angry and trying to figure out a good recourse so I don’t get screwed. I love this bike more than any other bike and know that as time goes on, finding one will be more and more difficult. Sorry for the long winded message...


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Kudos to Max for the good catch, noticing the improperly routed wiring. I have included a picture below of my bike showing correct routing. It looks to me like your current incorrect routing is a wire chafing problem just waiting to happen. Along with others, I am also curios to know why your engine was pulled.

Back in the day, with a lot less knowledge and tools than a supposedly professional motorcycle shop mechanic, with the help of my Father, I pulled the engine on my 1974 CB750 Four to replace the valve cover with a chrome version. Using care, and duct taping vulnerable areas on the frame, I had no cosmetic damage when the job was complete. I agree that what they did to your frame, although cosmetic, is unacceptable.

If the damage has gone through the paint to bare metal, you definitely dont want those places to rust, so if proper repairs wont be done until after riding season, those areas should be cleaned and sealed. If the shop you used did that kind of damage, I dont think I would trust them to do the restoration. In order to do it right, the engine will need to be pulled and re-installed again. So, if it was me, I would thoroughly document everything as it is now. Next I would take it to a professional custom motorcycle shop or a shop that specializes in motorcycle restorations, and get a repair estimate. Present the estimate to the shop that damaged your bike, and see if they will pay it. If they say no, I would pay to have the repair done right myself with another shop, then take the shop that damaged your bike to small claims court.

Thank you. That is a very fair and level headed response. Dealing with damage to something you love so much is a very strange place to be in. Never been here before so.. the input is valued, thanks!


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[peterbaron]

Thank you for your explanation.
It looks like you've had bad luck with this beautiful bike from the very beginning...
Do not know how far away from your place is any other Honda dealer, but looking at your situation, I would not take this bike back to the same dealer again (if you have this option?)

My opinion: I know it hurts, but since these scratches look more cosmetic, I would use very fine sand paper, water it + frame, sand it down and repaint the frame by using semi gloss or gloss TREMCLAD Rust Paint, C$10.
ix your other things first, route electrical harness properly and then paint. I would not take the engine out to do the painting.
Small Claim Court would be too much of a headache, I guess ????
Canadian link for illustration purpose:
https://www.homedepot.ca/product/tremclad-rust-paint-black-340g-aerosol-/1000406007

Home Depot USA, similar paint:
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Rust-Ol...mel-Gloss-Black-Spray-Paint-7779830/202315069

Wish you good luck, get over it and have safe, trouble free riding.

 

[dave]

I would be very upset also. I pulled the engine out of my 1976 CB750F and reinstalled it twice, both times by myself, and did less damage than that.

I took my VW Golf to the dealer to have the window repaired under warranty and the mechanic scratched the interior, painted surface of the door using a screwdriver to pry the door panel off. It wasn't even noticeable with the door closed, but it upset me because my car was only a few weeks old. I talked to the service manager about it and they agreed to pay the bill for me to take it to a shop to have it repaired (it was around $200.00). I had to be quite stern with the service manager, but I was persistent and got the results I expected.

Was the dealer you took your bike to the one in Spencerport? I grew up in Rochester, and bought my 1974 Honda XL250 and 1976 CB 750F from Hennen Honda, but they're both closed now.

 

[QUINTtastic_imp]

I would be very upset also. I pulled the engine out of my 1976 CB750F and reinstalled it twice, both times by myself, and did less damage than that.

I took my VW Golf to the dealer to have the window repaired under warranty and the mechanic scratched the interior, painted surface of the door using a screwdriver to pry the door panel off. It wasn't even noticeable with the door closed, but it upset me because my car was only a few weeks old. I talked to the service manager about it and they agreed to pay the bill for me to take it to a shop to have it repaired (it was around $200.00). I had to be quite stern with the service manager, but I was persistent and got the results I expected.

Was the dealer you took your bike to the one in Spencerport? I grew up in Rochester, and bought my 1974 Honda XL250 and 1976 CB 750F from Hennen Honda, but they're both closed now.

Exactly! My friend who fixes bikes as a hobby knows enough to cover the frame. Heck, I knew that.

The point that some shops don’t get is that if something happens to our bikes.. it’s OUR mistake to make.

And I took it to Canandaigua Motorsports. The only other Honda dealer is Cycle Stop in Henrietta and I’d trust them even less. I figured being a dealer shop with a main line to Honda would make things more satisfactory. I guess not.

I also have a 78 cb750k. Love those old carbureted bikes with character

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Thank you for your explanation.
It looks like you've had bad luck with this beautiful bike from the very beginning...
Do not know how far away from your place is any other Honda dealer, but looking at your situation, I would not take this bike back to the same dealer again (if you have this option?)

My opinion: I know it hurts, but since these scratches look more cosmetic, I would use very fine sand paper, water it + frame, sand it down and repaint the frame by using semi gloss or gloss TREMCLAD Rust Paint, C$10.
ix your other things first, route electrical harness properly and then paint. I would not take the engine out to do the painting.
Small Claim Court would be too much of a headache, I guess ????
Canadian link for illustration purpose:
https://www.homedepot.ca/product/tremclad-rust-paint-black-340g-aerosol-/1000406007

Home Depot USA, similar paint:
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Rust-Ol...mel-Gloss-Black-Spray-Paint-7779830/202315069

Wish you good luck, get over it and have safe, trouble free riding.

Hey thanks! I screenshotted your suggestion for painting. Honda is now getting involved so we’ll see what I think is best in the end. Small claims court is less than 50 bucks to file, might be worth the hassle. Weeeeee, all the fun!!


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[max]

Quintastic again sorry to hear the "woes" but here are two pictures that show the cables in question, it may be that they can be unplugged, slid out from in between the frame and re-routed as shown, they are the o2 sensor and ignition sensor.

and the lower part of the clutch housing;

All the best wishes and thanks for the updates, we were wondering what had happened but can fully understand the situation. max

 

[pekingduck]

QUINTastic, hope the ongoing problem with the engine is resolved. Is it as smooth now as it originally was? Did they say conclusively what the cause was, or if it could re-occur?
Pulling an engine out usually means it's way beyond the top end and into the crank, rod, or counter balancer area. And when you described a squealing sound....

As regards the scratches, if the areas are sanded, prepped and masked off, a professional painter can touch up those spots easily. Their paints will have a hardener mixed in that spray cans won't have.

 

[QUINTtastic_imp]

QUINTastic, hope the ongoing problem with the engine is resolved. Is it as smooth now as it originally was? Did they say conclusively what the cause was, or if it could re-occur?
Pulling an engine out usually means it's way beyond the top end and into the crank, rod, or counter balancer area. And when you described a squealing sound....

As regards the scratches, if the areas are sanded, prepped and masked off, a professional painter can touch up those spots easily. Their paints will have a hardener mixed in that spray cans won't have.

It’s not as smooth as it was, but I’m getting used to it. It’s okay now, but not insanely smooth like these bikes are supposed to be. The vibes are an unusual frequency which is more bothersome than a vintage bikes typical vibes. But, oh well.

They don’t know why the carbon built up on the pistons. But I’m guessing that’s why an exhaust valve hit and why the cylinder walls were gouged up. So yeah it could reoccur but.. I just drew the short straw. They didn’t replace rods but they replaced a bunch of bearings, reset the balancers, replaced the cam Shaun tensioner, and trued the crankshaft. Although there was DEFINITELY some shady business when they measured the crankshafts specs. And some info Honda didn’t want me to know as it apparently wasn’t my business. I believe the crankshaft was worn or damaged but Honda did not want to pay for a new crank. So, it is what it is. Maybe one day I’ll buy another CB1100. I don’t like any other modern bikes!

Thanks for the paint tips. We shall see what Honda wants to do and if I have to go to court..


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[Cormanus]

Give the general reliability of Hondas, it amazes me that Honda is not more generous about fixing these sorts of problems. I know not every CB1100 owner is a member of this forum, but this is the only report of this sort of problem I've heard. I'm not sure why they didn't just bung in a new engine and send you away singing their praises. In the long run, it would have cost them less than the grief they're now going to have to deal with and given them a whole lot of excellent publicity.

 

[QUINTtastic_imp]

Give the general reliability of Hondas, it amazes me that Honda is not more generous about fixing these sorts of problems. I know not every CB1100 owner is a member of this forum, but this is the only report of this sort of problem I've heard. I'm not sure why they didn't just bung in a new engine and send you away singing their praises. In the long run, it would have cost them less than the grief they're now going to have to deal with and given them a whole lot of excellent publicity.

Amen to that. I tried. They told me I was lucky to get parts covered. I feel very sad as we own cars because we have to. We own bikes because we love them. They’re our pride and joy and give us such fun lives. Whatcha gonna do I guess.


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[Cormanus]

I've always remembered a story I heard back in the 70s about a bloke in the UK who realised his dream and became the owner of a Porsche. From the get go it had an intermittent problem which the UK dealers couldn't fix so, while on a motoring trip in Europe, he took it back to the Porsche factory. They took the car away and suggested he go for a walk for an hour or so while they looked at it. When he returned, they apologised to him and said the car wasn't ready. He was given a comfortable place to sit and a cup of coffee and eventually the car appeared. The Porsche employee apologised again for the delay and said, "We are so sorry you've had this problem. The car is fixed and we've written to the UK dealer telling them what the problem was so they can deal with it should it occur in another of our cars."

The bloke thanked them and reached for his wallet. "What do I owe you?"

The employee looked slightly shocked, "Why, nothing, sir. We like to see our machines running properly."

I've no idea whether the story is true or apocryphal, but it makes sense to me that people making a quality product in which they have confidence would behave like that.

Good luck.

 

[QUINTtastic_imp]

I've always remembered a story I heard back in the 70s about a bloke in the UK who realised his dream and became the owner of a Porsche. From the get go it had an intermittent problem which the UK dealers couldn't fix so, while on a motoring trip in Europe, he took it back to the Porsche factory. They took the car away and suggested he go for a walk for an hour or so while they looked at it. When he returned, they apologised to him and said the car wasn't ready. He was given a comfortable place to sit and a cup of coffee and eventually the car appeared. The Porsche employee apologised again for the delay and said, "We are so sorry you've had this problem. The car is fixed and we've written to the UK dealer telling them what the problem was so they can deal with it should it occur in another of our cars."

The bloke thanked them and reached for his wallet. "What do I owe you?"

The employee looked slightly shocked, "Why, nothing, sir. We like to see our machines running properly."

I've no idea whether the story is true or apocryphal, but it makes sense to me that people making a quality product in which they have confidence would behave like that.

Good luck.

Once upon a time, it was most likely true.


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[pekingduck]

Every new Honda bike sold in the US has a manufacturer's warranty, which is an obligation to repair a defect within a prescribed time period and/or mileage. In the US, American Honda buys all their motorcycles through Honda Motors Japan. And all Honda dealers are independents who buy from American Honda.

If there's a defect covered under warranty, the dealer repairs it, files a claim with American Honda, who pays the dealer, and then inspects it. If the claim is deemed not a defect, it denies the claim by the dealer, who ends up eating it

Likewise, American Honda sends a bill for the claim to Honda Japan, who pays it if legit, and denies it if not. Like it or not, motorcycles are a business, and it is all about the bottom line.

It is very generous for American Honda to be involved for a couple of reasons.
- The bike was bought from a private party. This means American Honda and the selling dealer made money from the original buyer, but nothing from the second buyer.

- The bike is years out of warranty, meaning American Honda can't collect anything from Japan. It's all just goodwill.

- It isn't a common, or normal failure (the cause, and the repair is still unclear), and the bike has been apart so many times, there's nothing to look at from a learning standpoint.

 

[Gone in 60]

Sad to see this. And it's the reason why I avoid the dealer unless absolutely necessary. I had no choice but to take my last bike to a dealer twice during its life, both times for recall work, and both times it came back with missing screws and small trim parts, but luckily no scratches.

Sounds like you didn't have much of a choice in your situation, and if you can't get resolution and just want to fix it, I had a scratch on my frame when I bought my CB - owner said a piece of truck tire slapped it, and I had to respray a section to make myself happy.

I do a lot of detailing and refinishing, and found that Eastwood Chassis Paint in gloss black is a great match for the CB frame, and lays down smoothly. You can mask carefully, sand with 400 grit to smooth out the scratches, and give it a shot.