Ethanol vs. Your Engine
- Thread starter fiscy_imp
- Start date
DGShannon_imp
Been there
On this, I would have to disagree. "ZERO" chance only comes with ZERO fight. It may well fail, but there is always some chance, as long as we the people stay in the battle. Many would have said that there was ZERO chance that legalized marijuana or gay marriage would ever come about, but look where that is headed. There are ongoing efforts by republican and democrat, in multiple states, trying to reel in methanol, even if only to arrest it at 10%, until folks better understand the fiasco we are headed for. Hopefully, eventually, and with enough public resistance, it just might change.The ferret_imp said:
You said "If the government would mandate 20% ethanol, I would not put it in my motorcycle." What would you put in it then? If you can't locate a gas station today without 10% (just as I can't) what are you planning to do when you can't locate one with less than 20%?
You might be correct in predicting that "straight gas" won't return. But, fighting to hold on to the widespread availability of 10% (not sent through blender pumps that cannot distribute small quantities of 10% for motorcycles, gas cans, etc.) so I can continue to ride my CB, and other motorcycles not designed for it, is very much worth spending a nano second of my life worrying about.
Scoobynut_imp
Been there
It looks like pressure works sometimes. From Agweb.com Headline: "EPA Succumbs to Pressure to Reduce Ethanol Mandate." This was from the end of 2013. Funny enough, that's about when all of our local gas stations started getting pure gas at their pumps, rather than the one or two stations prior. I'm not sure why you folks in other states haven't felt it like that yet -- maybe a stronger corn lobby in your state?
"Critics who have been taking shots at the national ethanol mandate finally got their way this month when the federal government reduced the amount of ethanol that gasoline producers must purchase next year.
The EPA proposal to reduce the biofuels mandate by 2.94 billion gallons in 2014 drew howls of protest from agricultural groups that accused the government of giving in to big oil interests. Opponents of the mandate, on the other hand, complained that it didn’t go far enough to reduce ethanol consumption. No one, it appears, was happy."
I wouldn't say no one was happy. I was happy as he**!
"Critics who have been taking shots at the national ethanol mandate finally got their way this month when the federal government reduced the amount of ethanol that gasoline producers must purchase next year.
The EPA proposal to reduce the biofuels mandate by 2.94 billion gallons in 2014 drew howls of protest from agricultural groups that accused the government of giving in to big oil interests. Opponents of the mandate, on the other hand, complained that it didn’t go far enough to reduce ethanol consumption. No one, it appears, was happy."
I wouldn't say no one was happy. I was happy as he**!
On this, I would have to disagree. "ZERO" chance only comes with ZERO fight. It may well fail, but there is always some chance, as long as we the people stay in the battle. Many would have said that there was ZERO chance that legalized marijuana or gay marriage would ever come about, but look where that is headed. There are ongoing efforts by republican and democrat, in multiple states, trying to reel in methanol, even if only to arrest it at 10%, until folks better understand the fiasco we are headed for. Hopefully, eventually, and with enough public resistance, it just might change.DGShannon_imp said:
You said "If the government would mandate 20% ethanol, I would not put it in my motorcycle." What would you put in it then? If you can't locate a gas station today without 10% (just as I can't) what are you planning to do when you can't locate one with less than 20%?
You might be correct in predicting that "straight gas" won't return. But, fighting to hold on to the widespread availability of 10% (not sent through blender pumps that cannot distribute small quantities of 10% for motorcycles, gas cans, etc.) so I can continue to ride my CB, and other motorcycles not designed for it, is very much worth spending a nano second of my life worrying about.
Try this site to locate pure gas
Pure-gas.org - ethanol-free gasoline in the U.S. and Canada
So, at the risk of igniting WW3, what is the ethanol mandate really about: emissions or appeasing the US corn lobby?
the Ferret
Road warrior
EVERYTHING that happens in the US is political and driven by money....but that is another thread in another forum.fiscy_imp said:
Yes please.... I will not let this turn into a political rant. If it heads that way, I will lock it up.
ride4now_imp
Road warrior
Wow... I hate to weigh in here...but why not? I'll keep it clean and a-political. In Georgia many of the larger stations are now selling regular, non-ethanol gas. If I remember correctly, it's about .50 more per gallon than regular ethanol blended fuel. In Florida, I have'nt noticed it being sold anywhere yet. I've had one fuel related problem ever and that's after I had my KLR for about 6 months. The carburetor gummed up which kept the bike from running right and I had to take it back to the dealer to get it cleaned. They blamed it on the heat in Florida and my 'lack of use'. I blamed it on the fact that it was a 'left-over' and that the carb problems started when they had it in the back. They said it was stored 'dry' but who knows. Since I moved the bike to Georgia, I've had no problems. And that was 4 years ago. I keep Stabil marine formula in all of my bikes and my boat and have yet to have another issue. For now, in my opinion, it's a waste of time worrying about it. If they go to a higher level of Ethanol, then I'll worry, gripe, complain, etc... but not before.
twiin640_imp
First service completed
I'm a big fan of getting off of foreign oil and also breaking the oil monopoly that's existed in this country for the last 100 years. To that end I've been doing much research on alternative fuels and particularly ethanol. The country of Brazil is currently almost completely if not 100% free of the foreign oil dilemma because of their extensive use of ethanol. I have found lots of information to prove that ethanol is completely safe for almost every vehicle made since the late 90's.
With my current mix ratio, I currently run approx. 42% ethanol in one of my vehicles. Worked out that way the last tank because I simply filled it half and half with E85 and gasoline. I can tell you after running it for approx 300 miles that there have been no ill effects. The engine actually runs smoother and cooler.
I also have to address the mpg topic. If ethanol is burned in an engine optimized for gasoline, which all of our engines are, it's not logical to expect it to get the same results as a gallon of gasoline as far as mpg. But if an engine that normally burns gasoline is optimized to burn ethanol, many studies have shown that the mpg increases.
The last item to mention is that there have been no documented cases that ethanol has harmed any engine or parts from it's use. Much of that confusion has come from methanol which can cause problems to gasoline engines. Almost every vehicle manufactured in this country since 1990 is ethanol friendly.
Alternative fuels won't be going away. The Clean Air Act of 1970 will make sure of that. It's interesting reading if anyone gets the time to check it out. I'm not trying to start a heated debate here or anything like that. I'm just a very concerned citizen who wants to break free of foreign oil and the oil monopoly and I'm doing what I can to get there.
With my current mix ratio, I currently run approx. 42% ethanol in one of my vehicles. Worked out that way the last tank because I simply filled it half and half with E85 and gasoline. I can tell you after running it for approx 300 miles that there have been no ill effects. The engine actually runs smoother and cooler.
I also have to address the mpg topic. If ethanol is burned in an engine optimized for gasoline, which all of our engines are, it's not logical to expect it to get the same results as a gallon of gasoline as far as mpg. But if an engine that normally burns gasoline is optimized to burn ethanol, many studies have shown that the mpg increases.
The last item to mention is that there have been no documented cases that ethanol has harmed any engine or parts from it's use. Much of that confusion has come from methanol which can cause problems to gasoline engines. Almost every vehicle manufactured in this country since 1990 is ethanol friendly.
Alternative fuels won't be going away. The Clean Air Act of 1970 will make sure of that. It's interesting reading if anyone gets the time to check it out. I'm not trying to start a heated debate here or anything like that. I'm just a very concerned citizen who wants to break free of foreign oil and the oil monopoly and I'm doing what I can to get there.
ChipBeck_imp
Road warrior
Gentlemen,twiin640_imp said:
The above is so rife with unquestionable errors that a few must be pointed out. First, I have been a new car dealer for GM, KIA, Lotus, and GMC Trucks for over a quarter of a century. Next, as a multi location Chevron dealer today and one of the largest retailers of E-85 in Arizona I am qualified to speak here.
1. The United States is oil independent today and thanks to the fracking revolution we are a net exporter of oil.
2. A gallon of Ethanol only contains 65% as much energy as a gallon of gasoline. That's not an opinion, that's a fact. Many GM and Ford vehicles are Flex Fuel (including my new 2015 F-150) and the vehicle can determine the % of Ethanol up to 85% and adjust engine settings to run properly on it. None of them get "better mileage", none of them get the same mileage, every one of them get about 30% poorer mileage. My F-150 does worse than that on E-85.
3. Ethanol is not safe to use in almost every vehicle made since the 1990's unless you are talking about E-10 (10% ethanol). E-85 isn't even safe for regular gas pumps let alone non-Flex Fuel cars and trucks. E-85 is so corrosive that I had to buy special tanks with all stainless steel motors, lines, and sensors. The pumps and nozzles on my E-85 pumps are much more expensive than my gas pumps because everything needs to be stainless. Non Flex Fuel cars won't run properly, if they run at all, on E-85. It will void your warranty and rust your fuel system components.
4. My regular gas tanks have water sensors to tell me if water is collecting on the bottom. There are no water sensors in my E-85 tanks because Ethanol soaks up water like a sponge. If water ever gets in it gets pumped into peoples cars diluted into the fuel.
5. You claim that "many studies have shown that the mpg increases". I do this for a living and I haven't seen one study from any credible source that claims better mileage from Ethanol which contains 1/3 less energy per gallon. Please quote a source.
6. "The last item to mention is that there have been no documented cases that ethanol has harmed any engine or parts from it's use." This leaves me incredulous. Not one documented case?!?!? At least once a month I have a customer that is not paying attention fill up with E-85 in a non Flex Fuel car and drive away. They call furious when their car stops running and the typical cost to tow the car, drain the tank, clean out the fuel lines and get them back on the road is about $500. Let that E-85 sit in the car for a month and the cost to repair the rusted components can run into the thousands. Cars, trucks, boats, motorcycles, and all manner of power equipment numbering in the millions have been damaged by Ethanol. A new Dressor-Wayne gas pump costs about $15,000.00. If you pump E-85 with it the warranty is voided immediately. In order to pump E-85 I have to buy the $20,000 model with stainless guts.
7. So why do I sell E-85? The Maracopa County Board of Supervisors makes E-85 use mandatory for all taxi cabs servicing the Phoenix airport and my station is right by the airport. The cab drivers hate it even though it costs 20-25% less than gasoline because they are getting 30% less mileage in their flex fuel Chevrolet's. They cuss about it all the time but they are forced to use it so I sell it.
8. It takes over 100 gallons of water and almost a gallon of high energy diesel (to farm and transport the corn), tons of fertilizer and farmland, and more to produce one gallon of low energy Ethanol. Great for farmers, bad for everybody else.
9. Finally, "the oil monopoly that's existed in this country for the last 100 years" is quite a statement. Exxon-Mobil is the largest oil company in the U.S. and is the largest independent (non-government owned) oil company in the world. They control less than 3% of the world oil market. Chevron is #2 and they control less than 2% of the world market. That's quite a monopoly. Exxon is dwarfed by the state owned oil companies and is the 14th largest oil company globally. There are over 100 oil companies competing in the U.S. alone today. Monopoly? Seriously?? In the 1960's the telephone company was a monopoly. Exxon-Mobil doesn't command squat with their 3% market share.
If Ethanol made any sense people wouldn't need to be forced to buy it. All the best.
Chip Beck
Owner/Operator
Team CB Petroleum Properties
Ethanol s****, as far as a monopoly you have to go back a bit more than 100 years to Standard Oil (John D) who worked has way out west under bidding small franchises and shutting them down. Smart man but laws where made to stop him and the likes of JP Morgan from forming monopoly's.
Gentlemen,ChipBeck_imp said:
The above is so rife with unquestionable errors that a few must be pointed out. First, I have been a new car dealer for GM, KIA, Lotus, and GMC Trucks for over a quarter of a century. Next, as a multi location Chevron dealer today and one of the largest retailers of E-85 in Arizona I am qualified to speak here.
1. The United States is oil independent today and thanks to the fracking revolution we are a net exporter of oil.
2. A gallon of Ethanol only contains 65% as much energy as a gallon of gasoline. That's not an opinion, that's a fact. Many GM and Ford vehicles are Flex Fuel (including my new 2015 F-150) and the vehicle can determine the % of Ethanol up to 85% and adjust engine settings to run properly on it. None of them get "better mileage", none of them get the same mileage, every one of them get about 30% poorer mileage. My F-150 does worse than that on E-85.
3. Ethanol is not safe to use in almost every vehicle made since the 1990's unless you are talking about E-10 (10% ethanol). E-85 isn't even safe for regular gas pumps let alone non-Flex Fuel cars and trucks. E-85 is so corrosive that I had to buy special tanks with all stainless steel motors, lines, and sensors. The pumps and nozzles on my E-85 pumps are much more expensive than my gas pumps because everything needs to be stainless. Non Flex Fuel cars won't run properly, if they run at all, on E-85. It will void your warranty and rust your fuel system components.
4. My regular gas tanks have water sensors to tell me if water is collecting on the bottom. There are no water sensors in my E-85 tanks because Ethanol soaks up water like a sponge. If water ever gets in it gets pumped into peoples cars diluted into the fuel.
5. You claim that "many studies have shown that the mpg increases". I do this for a living and I haven't seen one study from any credible source that claims better mileage from Ethanol which contains 1/3 less energy per gallon. Please quote a source.
6. "The last item to mention is that there have been no documented cases that ethanol has harmed any engine or parts from it's use." This leaves me incredulous. Not one documented case?!?!? At least once a month I have a customer that is not paying attention fill up with E-85 in a non Flex Fuel car and drive away. They call furious when their car stops running and the typical cost to tow the car, drain the tank, clean out the fuel lines and get them back on the road is about $500. Let that E-85 sit in the car for a month and the cost to repair the rusted components can run into the thousands. Cars, trucks, boats, motorcycles, and all manner of power equipment numbering in the millions have been damaged by Ethanol. A new Dressor-Wayne gas pump costs about $15,000.00. If you pump E-85 with it the warranty is voided immediately. In order to pump E-85 I have to buy the $20,000 model with stainless guts.
7. So why do I sell E-85? The Maracopa County Board of Supervisors makes E-85 use mandatory for all taxi cabs servicing the Phoenix airport and my station is right by the airport. The cab drivers hate it even though it costs 20-25% less than gasoline because they are getting 30% less mileage in their flex fuel Chevrolet's. They cuss about it all the time but they are forced to use it so I sell it.
8. It takes over 100 gallons of water and almost a gallon of high energy diesel (to farm and transport the corn), tons of fertilizer and farmland, and more to produce one gallon of low energy Ethanol. Great for farmers, bad for everybody else.
9. Finally, "the oil monopoly that's existed in this country for the last 100 years" is quite a statement. Exxon-Mobil is the largest oil company in the U.S. and is the largest independent (non-government owned) oil company in the world. They control less than 3% of the world oil market. Chevron is #2 and they control less than 2% of the world market. That's quite a monopoly. Exxon is dwarfed by the state owned oil companies and is the 14th largest oil company globally. There are over 100 oil companies competing in the U.S. alone today. Monopoly? Seriously?? In the 1960's the telephone company was a monopoly. Exxon-Mobil doesn't command squat with their 3% market share.
If Ethanol made any sense people wouldn't need to be forced to buy it. All the best.
Chip Beck
Owner/Operator
Team CB Petroleum Properties
I hate ethanol!
https://cqrcengage.com/amacycle/app/sign-petition?0&engagementId=108574
"Aye, there's the rub," as one of Shakespeare's characters (I forget which) once observed.ChipBeck_imp said:
No-one would want to do anything to make US farmers unhappy. And, with great respect to farmers all over the world who are very important people, that's a great pity on a couple of fronts.
twiin640_imp
First service completed
ChipBeck,
I apologize sir if I touched a nerve. And yes I said sir. I respect you and your opinions as I hope you would respect mine. I do research on many topics and alternative fuel just happens to be one of them. The information in my postings is backed by scientific data and many in the field who have done exhaustive studies and testing. But you should already have all this info being in the industry already. I'm not going to quote sources or otherwise, all of this information is out there and in abundance.
For the benefit of this venue, I'm not going to go back and forth with ChipBeck or anyone else on the topic of alternative fuels. I do however want to make sure that all sides of a topic get covered.
First I want to cover your number 6:
6. "The last item to mention is that there have been no documented cases that ethanol has harmed any engine or parts from it's use." This leaves me incredulous. Not one documented case?!?!? At least once a month I have a customer that is not paying attention fill up with E-85 in a non Flex Fuel car and drive away. They call furious when their car stops running and the typical cost to tow the car, drain the tank, clean out the fuel lines and get them back on the road is about $500. Let that E-85 sit in the car for a month and the cost to repair the rusted components can run into the thousands. Cars, trucks, boats, motorcycles, and all manner of power equipment numbering in the millions have been damaged by Ethanol. A new Dressor-Wayne gas pump costs about $15,000.00. If you pump E-85 with it the warranty is voided immediately. In order to pump E-85 I have to buy the $20,000 model with stainless guts."
You have to agree that ethanol pumps look different than regular gasoline pumps. An E85 pump has bright yellow colors and warnings about the use of it. How those people missed the bright colors and warnings is beyond me. It sounds like they could have just as easily put diesel in their tank with the exact same outcome. Ethanol didn't cause the problems with those vehicles, the people themselves did by not paying attention.
Ethanol is a very clean fuel. One of it's characteristics is that it can and does clean the inside of a fuel system when used. For someone that's intending to use ethanol blended fuels especially if the car has been burning gasoline for a while, it's suggested that smaller ratios of ethanol fuel are used at first and then the blend increased over time. If cleaning is going to happen, it allows the ethanol to clean out the fuel system more gradually. The folks that accidentally dumped a lot of ethanol into their fuel system benefited from a thorough fuel system cleaning.
Second the topic of number 2.
"A gallon of Ethanol only contains 65% as much energy as a gallon of gasoline. That's not an opinion, that's a fact. Many GM and Ford vehicles are Flex Fuel (including my new 2015 F-150) and the vehicle can determine the % of Ethanol up to 85% and adjust engine settings to run properly on it. None of them get "better mileage", none of them get the same mileage, every one of them get about 30% poorer mileage. My F-150 does worse than that on E-85."
I agree with you sir. Ethanol does have less thermal energy. Apples and oranges. Gas and ethanol are two different fuel types and have different sets of properties. Ethanol is going to react differently in an engine that is optimized for gasoline. Diesel engines require diesel fuel. It's an engine that is specifically made to run that type of fuel. Even though current flex fuel engines "will burn" E85, they are still gasoline engines that have been "massaged" to burn up to 85% ethanol.
There are a lot of vehicles already on the road without the flex fuel badge that are already flex fuel compatible. Meaning they will run up to an 85% (E85) fuel blend. A friend of mine has a 2002 Yukon. Nowhere in or outside of the vehicle does it say flex fuel. The gas tank cap isn't yellow. I did some snooping and research. In the owner's manual I found a couple lines that stated that this vehicle can run "oxygenated fuels up to a blend of E85". This is a flex fuel vehicle.
For those interested in alternative fuels or a choice at the pump please do your research. There's so much good information and misinformation out there.
Thank you for your time.
I apologize sir if I touched a nerve. And yes I said sir. I respect you and your opinions as I hope you would respect mine. I do research on many topics and alternative fuel just happens to be one of them. The information in my postings is backed by scientific data and many in the field who have done exhaustive studies and testing. But you should already have all this info being in the industry already. I'm not going to quote sources or otherwise, all of this information is out there and in abundance.
For the benefit of this venue, I'm not going to go back and forth with ChipBeck or anyone else on the topic of alternative fuels. I do however want to make sure that all sides of a topic get covered.
First I want to cover your number 6:
6. "The last item to mention is that there have been no documented cases that ethanol has harmed any engine or parts from it's use." This leaves me incredulous. Not one documented case?!?!? At least once a month I have a customer that is not paying attention fill up with E-85 in a non Flex Fuel car and drive away. They call furious when their car stops running and the typical cost to tow the car, drain the tank, clean out the fuel lines and get them back on the road is about $500. Let that E-85 sit in the car for a month and the cost to repair the rusted components can run into the thousands. Cars, trucks, boats, motorcycles, and all manner of power equipment numbering in the millions have been damaged by Ethanol. A new Dressor-Wayne gas pump costs about $15,000.00. If you pump E-85 with it the warranty is voided immediately. In order to pump E-85 I have to buy the $20,000 model with stainless guts."
You have to agree that ethanol pumps look different than regular gasoline pumps. An E85 pump has bright yellow colors and warnings about the use of it. How those people missed the bright colors and warnings is beyond me. It sounds like they could have just as easily put diesel in their tank with the exact same outcome. Ethanol didn't cause the problems with those vehicles, the people themselves did by not paying attention.
Ethanol is a very clean fuel. One of it's characteristics is that it can and does clean the inside of a fuel system when used. For someone that's intending to use ethanol blended fuels especially if the car has been burning gasoline for a while, it's suggested that smaller ratios of ethanol fuel are used at first and then the blend increased over time. If cleaning is going to happen, it allows the ethanol to clean out the fuel system more gradually. The folks that accidentally dumped a lot of ethanol into their fuel system benefited from a thorough fuel system cleaning.
Second the topic of number 2.
"A gallon of Ethanol only contains 65% as much energy as a gallon of gasoline. That's not an opinion, that's a fact. Many GM and Ford vehicles are Flex Fuel (including my new 2015 F-150) and the vehicle can determine the % of Ethanol up to 85% and adjust engine settings to run properly on it. None of them get "better mileage", none of them get the same mileage, every one of them get about 30% poorer mileage. My F-150 does worse than that on E-85."
I agree with you sir. Ethanol does have less thermal energy. Apples and oranges. Gas and ethanol are two different fuel types and have different sets of properties. Ethanol is going to react differently in an engine that is optimized for gasoline. Diesel engines require diesel fuel. It's an engine that is specifically made to run that type of fuel. Even though current flex fuel engines "will burn" E85, they are still gasoline engines that have been "massaged" to burn up to 85% ethanol.
There are a lot of vehicles already on the road without the flex fuel badge that are already flex fuel compatible. Meaning they will run up to an 85% (E85) fuel blend. A friend of mine has a 2002 Yukon. Nowhere in or outside of the vehicle does it say flex fuel. The gas tank cap isn't yellow. I did some snooping and research. In the owner's manual I found a couple lines that stated that this vehicle can run "oxygenated fuels up to a blend of E85". This is a flex fuel vehicle.
For those interested in alternative fuels or a choice at the pump please do your research. There's so much good information and misinformation out there.
Thank you for your time.
twiin640_imp
First service completed
For those that might be interested in learning more about Ethanol and other related fuel info, please feel free to check out these videos. This is just a very small part of the info that's out there.
"Ethanol Myth Busters"
Youtube by Bobby Likis, Kelly Davis, Dr. Matti Vint
(If you don't see another video see this one. This one contains info on:
Ethanol engine technology, mpg, ethanol damage, Clean Air Fuels Act etc
Someone asked for sources, this one has many).
"The Truth about Ethanol - Addressing the Myths"
Youtube by Fueling Truth
(Covers just myths)
"Pump"
I found this on Netflix
(Addresses choices of fuel)
Thank you for your time.
"Ethanol Myth Busters"
Youtube by Bobby Likis, Kelly Davis, Dr. Matti Vint
(If you don't see another video see this one. This one contains info on:
Ethanol engine technology, mpg, ethanol damage, Clean Air Fuels Act etc
Someone asked for sources, this one has many).
"The Truth about Ethanol - Addressing the Myths"
Youtube by Fueling Truth
(Covers just myths)
"Pump"
I found this on Netflix
(Addresses choices of fuel)
Thank you for your time.
cbdtran_imp
Been there
somewhere in 2005 where there was energy crunch, many gasoline stations used excessive ethanol probably more than allowed. my car lost power and mileage, I had reason to doubt it hurt the engine. In CA, they put excessive stuff in the gasoline, for the name of emission control, it is not as pure as it seems unless you to go Utah, the engine runs better with simpler gasfiscy_imp said:
Hiram E. Varona_imp
Running like a top
WOW! And I thought that oil viscosity was hot topic! It appears that Ethanol in our gas tanks is as big or bigger hot button issue than I would have expect it to be! Just when I thought it was out, they pull me back in!
DaSwami_imp
Been there
I only run NEP gas in my rigs. I actively seek it out wherever I go or may be. Fortunately here in Montana is is common where I live and drive.
Pure gas is the way the engines were designed to burn. You certainly can put E10 in your rigs but I have the choice currently and I pay more for pure fuel.
Pure gas is the way the engines were designed to burn. You certainly can put E10 in your rigs but I have the choice currently and I pay more for pure fuel.
Lord Popgun
Road warrior
I thought Ferret locked this thread.
the Ferret
Road warrior
Probably another one just like it popgun. Some subjects you just can't get away from, especially with Americans who are divided on this subject. Don't think w've ever had a Euro brother start an ethanol thread that I recall. People are of course free to discuss such things as long as they don't become disagreeable. When it gets testy I shut it down and wait 30 or 60 days for the next one to fire up on the same subject, and the same people get to argue about it all over again like they are going to change someones mind on the subject THIS time.
Fyi I typed "ethanol" into the search engine and came up with 3 pages of threads mentioning that subject, 20 threads per page, at least one thread in every forum we have except classifieds. Even one in New Members lol
Fyi I typed "ethanol" into the search engine and came up with 3 pages of threads mentioning that subject, 20 threads per page, at least one thread in every forum we have except classifieds. Even one in New Members lol
