CAUTION WHEN CHOOSING OIL

[kDiqq_imp]

The JASO MA2 oil has less ZDDP in it for catalytic converter safety compared to the MA rated oil.
After trying multiple brands and weights, I ended up with Redline 10w30. It's JASO MA because of the extra high levels of ZDDP. Never got that cold knocking with it either.

Actually, JASO MA, MA2, and MB ratings *mostly* describe clutch performance (has to do with clutch friction ratings) and any JASO rating does not guarantee any content of ZDDP. But! Redline is a PROVEN oil and does very well on UOAs.

Quote:Since Honda produces the oil in house, ...
I did not know that. I thought maybe they bought it from some oil company and branded it.

So, if they don't just buy it and feel the need to make it then I guess it is special. Like my CB1100. Special oil. Special bike. I like that. I'll keep both.

I did not know that. I thought maybe they bought it from some oil company and branded it.

So, if they don't just buy it and feel the need to make it then I guess it is special. Like my CB1100. Special oil. Special bike. I like that. I'll keep both.

If they do make it, then that's the definitive reason to use it.
They can formulate it and tweak it to whatever is best for their engines.

Nothing as far as oil brands go is definitive the reason Honda decided to produce their own oil in house is unknown. My speculation was listed above. It's *far* more profitable to to make sure every component comes out of Honda than to try and contract it out. That's undisputed. Does Honda go through the effort of tweaking their formulation for their engines? Maybe, I have no idea at all. I'm guessing no. Honda does not use any unique materials or unique tolerances that can be addressed by an oil. A good example is how Honda discussed the materials used in the CB1100 are different than that in any of their other engines due to its unique design.

Again, everyone here obviously cares a lot about their bike and it shows in regular maintenance. Keep it up and, again, everyone is right :beerchug:
Remember how I said I can be wrong?

I did some more research and it looks like, though Honda does not contract another oil manufacturer to sell their oils (like some 'OEM' oils do), they DO just buy their oil from different companies and brand it Honda. In America, it's an Exxon-Mobil blend (which means their synthetics are PROBABLY a class 3 oil, not true synthetic) and in Canada its PetroCanada. I didn't research the other countries Now, as far as the formulation goes, Honda either contracts a chemist/company, uses in-house employees, bought a formula(s), or has tells the providers to give them a blend with certain compliances. Personally, I will never know this. Hopefully this sheds some light though!

Just an FYI!

 

[Cormanus]

kDiqq, from someone not terribly excited by oil threads, thanks for this really interesting information. To add a little bit, I'm pretty sure the local Honda dealer in Australia does not use Honda oils. Having bee lectured by a bloke in the service department of another Honda about the evils of mixing different brands of oil,I rang to find out what they'd used and it certainly wasn't Honda oil.

On that question, do you know of any scientific/ engineering reason not to mix brands of oils if, for example you just need a top up?

 

[kDiqq_imp]

Yes!!! If you run, for example, Mobil 1 10w40 synthetic in your bike and you need to top up, your first choice should be the exact same thing. If its not available, get Mobil 1 20w50 synthetic. If you can't find that, get a non-synthetic of the same brand/weight. Once you've exhausted all the oils of the same brand, then go to another brand and change ASAP. Mixing weights isn't a big deal to get you home because they will mix and 'average'.

Mixing brands is bad because different companies use different additives and you can't know how they are going to react. Most of the time, its probably okay. But its not worth risking any negative chemical reaction once all the additives and detergents get warm and begin breaking down as they are designed to do.

This is based off what I found on the bobistheoilguy forum those folks are crazy knowledgeable.

 

[Cormanus]

Thanks for that.

 

[NightRider_imp]

If they do make it, then that's the definitive reason to use it.
They can formulate it and tweak it to whatever is best for their engines.

Somebody just mentioned Honda does not make it in-house but...wattaminute. Just a sec. Hold on there. If it is formulated to their specifications by an oil company then they "make it" just as if it were in-house.

There you go. :worship: This was easy and pretty clear cut. Now, on to something harder? Like, when to use stabilizer in your fuel and what kind is best? Speaking of fuel, ethanol? Does it hurt and since Honda does not make the gas, is it better to use non-ethanol or does ethanol actually help keep things running smoother? :biker:
My applogies for spinning this yet another oil thread to other liquids, but sheesh, nine pages about oil? Must be a hobby for some of us! :rofl:

 

[ClassicVW_imp]

I never worried about mixing different brands of oil or different weights as long as the weights were very close. And the two letter service grade was the same or also close. Like in 10W-30 and 10W-40. I generally follow the rule that "Oil is good. No oil is bad." Never had any issue with any vehicle that I owned.

The above experience applies in the past to my older cars. Even my present day cars with 130,000 or so on the ODO don't burn any oil. ( My family drives four Toyotas. Three of them have between 120,000 and 135,000 miles on them )

Most of us seem to change our oil in our bikes at between 2K - 4K miles. If you are regularly faced with adding a quart or a half quart of oil to your motorcycle, then I'd say you have a problem somewhere. Unless said motorcycle has very high mileage.

 

[kDiqq_imp]

If they do make it, then that's the definitive reason to use it.
They can formulate it and tweak it to whatever is best for their engines.

Somebody just mentioned Honda does not make it in-house but...wattaminute. Just a sec. Hold on there. If it is formulated to their specifications by an oil company then they "make it" just as if it were in-house.

There you go. :worship: This was easy and pretty clear cut. Now, on to something harder? Like, when to use stabilizer in your fuel and what kind is best? Speaking of fuel, ethanol? Does it hurt and since Honda does not make the gas, is it better to use non-ethanol or does ethanol actually help keep things running smoother? :biker:
My applogies for spinning this yet another oil thread to other liquids, but sheesh, nine pages about oil? Must be a hobby for some of us! :rofl:

Somebody just mentioned Honda does not make it in-house but...wattaminute. Just a sec. Hold on there. If it is formulated to their specifications by an oil company then they "make it" just as if it were in-house.

There you go. :worship: This was easy and pretty clear cut. Now, on to something harder? Like, when to use stabilizer in your fuel and what kind is best? Speaking of fuel, ethanol? Does it hurt and since Honda does not make the gas, is it better to use non-ethanol or does ethanol actually help keep things running smoother? :biker:
My applogies for spinning this yet another oil thread to other liquids, but sheesh, nine pages about oil? Must be a hobby for some of us! :rofl:
Well, it may or may NOT be formulated to their specifications.. If could be formulated in house and manufactured my EM, PC, etc. Or they could just receive orders for an API xx oil and buy what they are selling. Honda knows and, I'm certain, plays that strategy close to their chest.

I never researched a bunch on fuel stabilizers. For our boats, we have always used Sta-bil for winter storage and it worked perfectly. I've never put an additive with every fill up. Dyno tests showed they are useless with regular use (especially octane boosters) as far as power goes. But I've had very good luck in using Seafoam every 30k miles in my cars through the intake.

Ethanol in fuel is a big deal though. In my carb bikes and boats, we have seen E15 could RAPID degradation of floats and damage to other small plastic parts. There is a product, that I have never tried, that claims to 'remove' ethanol from fuel just by adding it to your tank. People who have carb'd hot rods have run the stuff with good results, but I've never used it. E10 seems to be a bit nicer than E15 but pure gas is your best bet. Most EFI motors are built to handle the stuff just fine but over the life of a vehicle, I hear ethanol will break down seals somewhat quicker than pure gas. I will never own a vehicle long enough to see that.

If you have the choice though and it's convenient, no reason not to get pure gas. Check if you have a station near you at Pure-gas.org - ethanol-free gasoline in the U.S. and Canada

I never worried about mixing different brands of oil or different weights as long as the weights were very close. And the two letter service grade was the same or also close. Like in 10W-30 and 10W-40. I generally follow the rule that "Oil is good. No oil is bad." Never had any issue with any vehicle that I owned.

The above experience applies in the past to my older cars. Even my present day cars with 130,000 or so on the ODO don't burn any oil. ( My family drives four Toyotas. Three of them have between 120,000 and 135,000 miles on them )

Most of us seem to change our oil in our bikes at between 2K - 4K miles. If you are regularly faced with adding a quart or a half quart of oil to your motorcycle, then I'd say you have a problem somewhere. Unless said motorcycle has very high mileage.

Agreed, burning oil is always an indicator of a bigger problem... Like owning a non-Japanese bike :celebrate: I know, I'm too funny.

The API designation does not always guarantee the presence, or lack thereof, of detergents, chemicals, or additives. No real way to find that out actually That's how companies say their oil is 'better' than another...

 

[Gumby 1100_imp]

Yes!!! If you run, for example, Mobil 1 10w40 synthetic in your bike and you need to top up, your first choice should be the exact same thing. If its not available, get Mobil 1 20w50 synthetic. If you can't find that, get a non-synthetic of the same brand/weight. Once you've exhausted all the oils of the same brand, then go to another brand and change ASAP. Mixing weights isn't a big deal to get you home because they will mix and 'average'.

Mixing brands is bad because different companies use different additives and you can't know how they are going to react. Most of the time, its probably okay. But its not worth risking any negative chemical reaction once all the additives and detergents get warm and begin breaking down as they are designed to do.

This is based off what I found on the bobistheoilguy forum those folks are crazy knowledgeable.

I understand your arguments, and agree that it would probably be best not to mix brands or types purely on the basis of chemical compatibility.

However, has anyone ever seen a single piece of documentation that shows any adverse affects from mixing brands or mixing synthetic with dino oil?

As long as you change your oil and filter regularly and stay within the engine manufacturer's specified rating and viscosity, I think that the worst thing anyone has to worry about is winding up with a strange shade of oil, like when you mix Royal Purple with Golden Spectro

 

[Motogeezer1949_imp]

Have fun: http://www.amsoil.com/frequent.aspx

 

[Gumby 1100_imp]

Have fun: http://www.amsoil.com/frequent.aspx

Re the above link...

Of course I would expect to see the following on the AMSOIL Site:


Question: Can AMSOIL motor oils be mixed with other brands?

Answer: Yes. AMSOIL synthetic motor oils are compatible with other conventional and synthetic motor oils. Mixing AMSOIL motor oils with other oils, however, will shorten the oil’s life expectancy and reduce the performance benefits. AMSOIL does not support extended drain intervals where oils have been mixed. Mixing other oils with AMSOIL motor oils may also void the AMSOIL limited warranty.


The preceding quote is also biased and self-serving and does not constitute as impartial documentation concerning any adverse affects of mixing brands...I'm still waiting for that. Besides, I doubt that any CB owner on this forum leaves the oil in his bike for any extended period of time....surely not long enough for any "mixed-oil" issues (if there are any) to ever arise. For the brief time that the oil is in our bikes, you could probably even get away with using (dare I say it?) Quaker State (if they made an approved, wet-clutch, motorcycle oil)

 

[kDiqq_imp]

Have fun: http://www.amsoil.com/frequent.aspx

Re the above link...

Of course I would expect to see the following on the AMSOIL Site:


Question: Can AMSOIL motor oils be mixed with other brands?

Answer: Yes. AMSOIL synthetic motor oils are compatible with other conventional and synthetic motor oils. Mixing AMSOIL motor oils with other oils, however, will shorten the oil’s life expectancy and reduce the performance benefits. AMSOIL does not support extended drain intervals where oils have been mixed. Mixing other oils with AMSOIL motor oils may also void the AMSOIL limited warranty.


The preceding quote is also biased and self-serving and does not constitute as impartial documentation concerning any adverse affects of mixing brands...I'm still waiting for that. Besides, I doubt that any CB owner on this forum leaves the oil in his bike for any extended period of time....surely not long enough for any "mixed-oil" issues (if there are any) to ever arise. For the brief time that the oil is in our bikes, you could probably even get away with using (dare I say it?) Quaker State (if they made an approved, wet-clutch, motorcycle oil)

Re the above link...

Of course I would expect to see the following on the AMSOIL Site:


Question: Can AMSOIL motor oils be mixed with other brands?

Answer: Yes. AMSOIL synthetic motor oils are compatible with other conventional and synthetic motor oils. Mixing AMSOIL motor oils with other oils, however, will shorten the oil’s life expectancy and reduce the performance benefits. AMSOIL does not support extended drain intervals where oils have been mixed. Mixing other oils with AMSOIL motor oils may also void the AMSOIL limited warranty.


The preceding quote is also biased and self-serving and does not constitute as impartial documentation concerning any adverse affects of mixing brands...I'm still waiting for that. Besides, I doubt that any CB owner on this forum leaves the oil in his bike for any extended period of time....surely not long enough for any "mixed-oil" issues (if there are any) to ever arise. For the brief time that the oil is in our bikes, you could probably even get away with using (dare I say it?) Quaker State (if they made an approved, wet-clutch, motorcycle oil) It'd be near impossible to attribute any lubrication-based failure to oil mixing. It'd take an insane amount of control. For that reason you'll probably never find any documentation on the issue. For the sake of discussion, think about how often oil gets mixed when you switch brands on a normal oil change.

I probably should have worded my statement differently. It's good practice to not try to mix your oils. You can't really lose by making sure whatever fluid in your engine isn't causing any undesired reaction or performance.

 

[Gumby 1100_imp]

Have fun: http://www.amsoil.com/frequent.aspx

Re the above link...

Of course I would expect to see the following on the AMSOIL Site:


Question: Can AMSOIL motor oils be mixed with other brands?

Answer: Yes. AMSOIL synthetic motor oils are compatible with other conventional and synthetic motor oils. Mixing AMSOIL motor oils with other oils, however, will shorten the oil’s life expectancy and reduce the performance benefits. AMSOIL does not support extended drain intervals where oils have been mixed. Mixing other oils with AMSOIL motor oils may also void the AMSOIL limited warranty.


The preceding quote is also biased and self-serving and does not constitute as impartial documentation concerning any adverse affects of mixing brands...I'm still waiting for that. Besides, I doubt that any CB owner on this forum leaves the oil in his bike for any extended period of time....surely not long enough for any "mixed-oil" issues (if there are any) to ever arise. For the brief time that the oil is in our bikes, you could probably even get away with using (dare I say it?) Quaker State (if they made an approved, wet-clutch, motorcycle oil)

Re the above link...

Of course I would expect to see the following on the AMSOIL Site:


Question: Can AMSOIL motor oils be mixed with other brands?

Answer: Yes. AMSOIL synthetic motor oils are compatible with other conventional and synthetic motor oils. Mixing AMSOIL motor oils with other oils, however, will shorten the oil’s life expectancy and reduce the performance benefits. AMSOIL does not support extended drain intervals where oils have been mixed. Mixing other oils with AMSOIL motor oils may also void the AMSOIL limited warranty.


The preceding quote is also biased and self-serving and does not constitute as impartial documentation concerning any adverse affects of mixing brands...I'm still waiting for that. Besides, I doubt that any CB owner on this forum leaves the oil in his bike for any extended period of time....surely not long enough for any "mixed-oil" issues (if there are any) to ever arise. For the brief time that the oil is in our bikes, you could probably even get away with using (dare I say it?) Quaker State (if they made an approved, wet-clutch, motorcycle oil) It'd be near impossible to attribute any lubrication-based failure to oil mixing. It'd take an insane amount of control. For that reason you'll probably never find any documentation on the issue. For the sake of discussion, think about how often oil gets mixed when you switch brands on a normal oil change.

I probably should have worded my statement differently. It's good practice to not try to mix your oils. You can't really lose by making sure whatever fluid in your engine isn't causing any undesired reaction or performance.

Agreed! :biker:

 

[ClassicVW_imp]

How about this- I've been thinking. Yes, scary thought, but regardless of that.....indulge me...

Now think for a moment how many morons there are in this world. Some of them are motorcycle owners. ( Not present company of course) And how many bikes have we seen advertised that have been stored for years? And how many people rarely change the oil? I'd say a lot. Now ask yourself how many engines have you heard of grenading from an oil issue?

 

[kDiqq_imp]

How about this- I've been thinking. Yes, scary thought, but regardless of that.....indulge me...

Now think for a moment how many morons there are in this world. Some of them are motorcycle owners. ( Not present company of course) And how many bikes have we seen advertised that have been stored for years? And how many people rarely change the oil? I'd say a lot. Now ask yourself how many engines have you heard of grenading from an oil issue?

I'm going to be a negative Nancy and say me oils become acidic over time and will start to corrode materials. I've seen a handful of guys ride bikes right out of storage for several years and lose compression. But that's the fault of storage, not the oil.

 

[Django]

If they do make it, then that's the definitive reason to use it.
They can formulate it and tweak it to whatever is best for their engines.

Hm, but they also could tell their needs to an oil producer, who knows better, how to do it. Being a good engine manufacturer does not necessarily involve, being a good oil producer.

Btw, I'm thinking about to use `Castrol Power1 Racing 4T 10W-30'.

 

[ClassicVW_imp]

How about this- I've been thinking. Yes, scary thought, but regardless of that.....indulge me...

Now think for a moment how many morons there are in this world. Some of them are motorcycle owners. ( Not present company of course) And how many bikes have we seen advertised that have been stored for years? And how many people rarely change the oil? I'd say a lot. Now ask yourself how many engines have you heard of grenading from an oil issue?

I'm going to be a negative Nancy and say me oils become acidic over time and will start to corrode materials. I've seen a handful of guys ride bikes right out of storage for several years and lose compression. But that's the fault of storage, not the oil.

I'm going to be a negative Nancy and say me oils become acidic over time and will start to corrode materials. I've seen a handful of guys ride bikes right out of storage for several years and lose compression. But that's the fault of storage, not the oil.
I completely agree with you. The oils do degrade over time, and become acidic. And yes, the main problem I have seen and heard with old bikes that have been in storage, is low compression. Most of the 35, 40 year old CBs I see offered for sale have between 5,000 and 25,000 miles on them, certainly not enough to get worn out.

What I'm thinking is that even 40 year old bikes that are ridden with old and maybe worn out oil for a while still are OK with an oil change and some minor care. That old oil maybe will start a harmful process and will hurt the engine in the very long run, but it doesn't destroy the engine in anyone's lifetime. So IMO, these endless discussions on what to use and what not to use for our 2,000 mile change intervals is largely a waste of time. (Not meaning to insult anyone, I discuss oils too)

 

[the Ferret]

Dale Walksler at Wheels Thru Time told me bikes are inanimate objects and don't know if they were shut off 70 years ago or yesterday. He will take an old Indian that hasn't run in 60 years, heat the oil in the crankcase with a torch to warm it up and thin it, put some fresh gas in it and fire it up and take it for a spin. I'm sure he does a complete service after that but he's certainly not past running an engine with very, very old oil in it at least for a few miles.

 

[kDiqq_imp]

How about this- I've been thinking. Yes, scary thought, but regardless of that.....indulge me...

Now think for a moment how many morons there are in this world. Some of them are motorcycle owners. ( Not present company of course) And how many bikes have we seen advertised that have been stored for years? And how many people rarely change the oil? I'd say a lot. Now ask yourself how many engines have you heard of grenading from an oil issue?

I'm going to be a negative Nancy and say me oils become acidic over time and will start to corrode materials. I've seen a handful of guys ride bikes right out of storage for several years and lose compression. But that's the fault of storage, not the oil.

I'm going to be a negative Nancy and say me oils become acidic over time and will start to corrode materials. I've seen a handful of guys ride bikes right out of storage for several years and lose compression. But that's the fault of storage, not the oil.
I completely agree with you. The oils do degrade over time, and become acidic. And yes, the main problem I have seen and heard with old bikes that have been in storage, is low compression. Most of the 35, 40 year old CBs I see offered for sale have between 5,000 and 25,000 miles on them, certainly not enough to get worn out.

What I'm thinking is that even 40 year old bikes that are ridden with old and maybe worn out oil for a while still are OK with an oil change and some minor care. That old oil maybe will start a harmful process and will hurt the engine in the very long run, but it doesn't destroy the engine in anyone's lifetime. So IMO, these endless discussions on what to use and what not to use for our 2,000 mile change intervals is largely a waste of time. (Not meaning to insult anyone, I discuss oils too)

Boom! Exactly! And, if I may, I'd like to carry another point home. Honda branded oils MAY NOT be the best oil for your bike. Perform UOAs. Environment, riding habits, and other external factors will dictate the best oil for your application.

If you are using Honda oil or any other name brand oil, you're fine.

If your intervals are longer than what Honda prescribes for your engine, proceed with caution.

 

[NightRider_imp]

Me? After all this discussion, you guys have sold me on Honda not knowing the best oil for their bikes. I mean, they are in the business of selling bikes, right? So knowing pure STP is as slick as it gets, I put pure STP oil additive in after removing the Honda crap oil. It took 14 little plastic bottles of the stuff and an hour to pour it in, you know, cause it is so thick. THen I heated up my oil pan with my daughter's best hair dryer (while she was out) and turned her over. Purrs like a kitten. Compression at the rings is easily double resulting in 28 percent increased horse power and naturally wear is zero. So, I have to say pure STP oil additive instead of oil is the way to go and Honda should package it as Honda oil from now on. Those Honda engineers obviously know less than I do...

 

[Lord Popgun]

Back in the day my brother told me he pulled pans off cars that used STP and it was all in the pan. Does that sound like a real thing?

And to stay on topic, I use Honda oil. Am I a bad person?