A shot at motorcyclists ...

[Roper_imp]

Just stay locked in your house. You'll be safe. Until they come for you.

 

[Stichill]

This caught my attention in the op-ed:
Quote:The country’s largest trauma centre (at Sunnybrook Health Sciences Centre) found that motorcycle crashes cost the Ontario health care system six times more than car crashes do
I've always thought that's one of the primary dangers of publicly-funded medicine. Once the government is in control of health care expenditures, they can write rules and regulations that the recipients must abide by. It's only a matter of time until motorcycles are deemed a public health hazard like smoking or alcoholism.

Meh. Already got the talk, not from my mom, but from my mother in law. A shut-in who also is upset when I climb a ladder to fix her roof, get under their car to fix it, or get on an airplane to do my job. Because to her, as it is with some people, everything is a threat.

And to her old country way of thinking, the man is the provider in the family and if something bad happened to me, my wife would be penniless. My wife is a doctor, I am a glorified roady and warehouseman.

Basically I don’t ride to her house, and we don’t talk about motorcycles.

My mom? I showed her a picture of my CB when I bought it and she said it looked very neat and pretty. Recently, I took her to lunch, and on the way, I asked if she would mind if I stopped at a motorcycle shop to pick up a part that I had ordered. She wanted to come in with me to browse. She picked up a jacket and felt the armor, and looked at all of the helmets. “You wear all of this safety stuff, right?”

Yes, Mom.

Ok then.

Wow, that's an arresting insight regarding human nature. Some people are risk-averse to the point that it interferes with the enjoyment of all that life has to offer.

 

[the Ferret]

I'm assuming this sort of thinking is why motorcycle sales are down. The snowflakes are scared to do anything beside play video games and stare at their phones. There are inherent risks in everything we do including walking out the front door. The trick is to be aware of dangers and mitigate their consequences. Common sense really.

And as my dad always said, "If the left one don't get ya, the right one will." So I suppose we should all just have fun doing what we love while we are above ground.

got to chime on on this, as one of the only millennials on the forum. the fact is that, for most people, a motorcycle is a secondary means of transportation. if you buy one, it's a secondary vehicle. most millennials absolutely cannot afford that kind of recreational expenditure. it's simple economics. millennials by and large will not spend money on something they can't afford. it's got zero to do with danger/risk aversion. one of the only reasons i started riding in my 20's was because i broke the system by using my bike as my primary means of transportation and giving up cars. everybody else in my peer group won't touch motorcycles, because they can't justify the expense when they already have a car.

got to chime on on this, as one of the only millennials on the forum. the fact is that, for most people, a motorcycle is a secondary means of transportation. if you buy one, it's a secondary vehicle. most millennials absolutely cannot afford that kind of recreational expenditure. it's simple economics. millennials by and large will not spend money on something they can't afford. it's got zero to do with danger/risk aversion. one of the only reasons i started riding in my 20's was because i broke the system by using my bike as my primary means of transportation and giving up cars. everybody else in my peer group won't touch motorcycles, because they can't justify the expense when they already have a car.
I'm with you on that. My first bike was in '91 after i graduated HS because it was $800 and I could afford it. My car blew up so that's the route I went. You would think then that the millennials would shift TOWARD motorcycles for the $ savings?

There are two big barriers in place that prevent that from happening: 1) perception. the perception is, if you ask around, that motorcycles are, in fact, not cheaper than cars. it's objectively untrue, but it's the perception. people see motorcycles as if they're actually more expensive than owning a car. they think motorcyclists are changing their tires every 4000 miles and constantly having to do engine repairs. they think motorcycles can't handle 6 digit mileage. they think motorcycle gear costs thousands of dollars. they truly believe it's a pure luxury pursuit. people would have to be enlightened and educated about these misconceptions before folks can shift toward buying more motorcycles, and i believe it starts with the manufacturers. they've never really attempted to market their products as transportation solutions, only as fun machines. a shift in marketing toward more practical applications and safety training would make a huge difference.

2) social pressure. people are told all the time about how dangerous motorcycling is, and they're right, but not for the reasons you'd think. it's dangerous because of the lack of training and the culture of carelessness that surrounds it. more measures like mandatory training, mandatory protective gear, and more strict licensure practices would sharply reduce the number of traffic deaths related to motorcycles, and over time people would begin to develop a familiarity with them. the more motorcycles you see on the road, the more accepted it becomes as a mode of transportation, and the more people will be willing to give it a try.

if these two things make a 180 in the near future you could see a huge turnaround for the motorcycle industry, but it's going to take the manufacturers putting up big $$$ for political lobbying and advertising to accomplish them both. This is what my generation needs to be shown the advantages of motorcycles.

There are two big barriers in place that prevent that from happening: 1) perception. the perception is, if you ask around, that motorcycles are, in fact, not cheaper than cars. it's objectively untrue, but it's the perception. people see motorcycles as if they're actually more expensive than owning a car. they think motorcyclists are changing their tires every 4000 miles and constantly having to do engine repairs. they think motorcycles can't handle 6 digit mileage. they think motorcycle gear costs thousands of dollars. they truly believe it's a pure luxury pursuit. people would have to be enlightened and educated about these misconceptions before folks can shift toward buying more motorcycles, and i believe it starts with the manufacturers. they've never really attempted to market their products as transportation solutions, only as fun machines. a shift in marketing toward more practical applications and safety training would make a huge difference.

2) social pressure. people are told all the time about how dangerous motorcycling is, and they're right, but not for the reasons you'd think. it's dangerous because of the lack of training and the culture of carelessness that surrounds it. more measures like mandatory training, mandatory protective gear, and more strict licensure practices would sharply reduce the number of traffic deaths related to motorcycles, and over time people would begin to develop a familiarity with them. the more motorcycles you see on the road, the more accepted it becomes as a mode of transportation, and the more people will be willing to give it a try.

if these two things make a 180 in the near future you could see a huge turnaround for the motorcycle industry, but it's going to take the manufacturers putting up big $$$ for political lobbying and advertising to accomplish them both. This is what my generation needs to be shown the advantages of motorcycles.

Interesting. I spent 17 years in the motorcycle industry and have been riding on the street almost daily for 54 years and I would argue that motorcycles are a lot more expensive to own than cars, a lot more, and that motorcycle gear does cost thousands of dollars (plus its a hassle to get in and out of every time you stop at a gas station or store or show up for work) that it's inconvenient to ride a motorcycle weather wise the majority of the days of the year, and that it's an absoluetly dangerous endeavor, even with experience and training. Imo you have to really WANT to ride a motorcycle or the factors against it would logically keep you from doing so.

 

[GoldOxide_imp]

This caught my attention in the op-ed:
Quote:The country’s largest trauma centre (at Sunnybrook Health Sciences Centre) found that motorcycle crashes cost the Ontario health care system six times more than car crashes do
I've always thought that's one of the primary dangers of publicly-funded medicine. Once the government is in control of health care expenditures, they can write rules and regulations that the recipients must abide by. It's only a matter of time until motorcycles are deemed a public health hazard like smoking or alcoholism.

Meh. Already got the talk, not from my mom, but from my mother in law. A shut-in who also is upset when I climb a ladder to fix her roof, get under their car to fix it, or get on an airplane to do my job. Because to her, as it is with some people, everything is a threat.

And to her old country way of thinking, the man is the provider in the family and if something bad happened to me, my wife would be penniless. My wife is a doctor, I am a glorified roady and warehouseman.

Basically I don’t ride to her house, and we don’t talk about motorcycles.

My mom? I showed her a picture of my CB when I bought it and she said it looked very neat and pretty. Recently, I took her to lunch, and on the way, I asked if she would mind if I stopped at a motorcycle shop to pick up a part that I had ordered. She wanted to come in with me to browse. She picked up a jacket and felt the armor, and looked at all of the helmets. “You wear all of this safety stuff, right?”

Yes, Mom.

Ok then.

Wow, that's an arresting insight regarding human nature. Some people are risk-averse to the point that it interferes with the enjoyment of all that life has to offer.

I've always thought that's one of the primary dangers of publicly-funded medicine. Once the government is in control of health care expenditures, they can write rules and regulations that the recipients must abide by. It's only a matter of time until motorcycles are deemed a public health hazard like smoking or alcoholism.
Interesting note. To my knowledge, I have never heard a discussion in any of the provinces to police which citizens are conditionally restricted from receiving health service. Fortunately (for the system), many riders never make it to receive the service.

 

[Stichill]

This caught my attention in the op-ed:
Quote:The country’s largest trauma centre (at Sunnybrook Health Sciences Centre) found that motorcycle crashes cost the Ontario health care system six times more than car crashes do
I've always thought that's one of the primary dangers of publicly-funded medicine. Once the government is in control of health care expenditures, they can write rules and regulations that the recipients must abide by. It's only a matter of time until motorcycles are deemed a public health hazard like smoking or alcoholism.

Meh. Already got the talk, not from my mom, but from my mother in law. A shut-in who also is upset when I climb a ladder to fix her roof, get under their car to fix it, or get on an airplane to do my job. Because to her, as it is with some people, everything is a threat.

And to her old country way of thinking, the man is the provider in the family and if something bad happened to me, my wife would be penniless. My wife is a doctor, I am a glorified roady and warehouseman.

Basically I don’t ride to her house, and we don’t talk about motorcycles.

My mom? I showed her a picture of my CB when I bought it and she said it looked very neat and pretty. Recently, I took her to lunch, and on the way, I asked if she would mind if I stopped at a motorcycle shop to pick up a part that I had ordered. She wanted to come in with me to browse. She picked up a jacket and felt the armor, and looked at all of the helmets. “You wear all of this safety stuff, right?”

Yes, Mom.

Ok then.

Wow, that's an arresting insight regarding human nature. Some people are risk-averse to the point that it interferes with the enjoyment of all that life has to offer.

I've always thought that's one of the primary dangers of publicly-funded medicine. Once the government is in control of health care expenditures, they can write rules and regulations that the recipients must abide by. It's only a matter of time until motorcycles are deemed a public health hazard like smoking or alcoholism.
Interesting note. To my knowledge, I have never heard a discussion in any of the provinces to police which citizens are conditionally restricted from receiving health service. Fortunately (for the system), many riders never make it to receive the service.

The point is, they could. There’s a finite amount of funding provided, and decisions about priorities are made on the basis of maximum social utility vs. any given individual’s well-being or personal freedom. It would be an easy bureaucratic decision to outlaw motorcycles, and reallocate the resultant healthcare savings to better serve the larger population. Bureaucracies restrict personal choice when your choices run counter to their objectives.

 

[GoldOxide_imp]

This caught my attention in the op-ed:
Quote:The country’s largest trauma centre (at Sunnybrook Health Sciences Centre) found that motorcycle crashes cost the Ontario health care system six times more than car crashes do
I've always thought that's one of the primary dangers of publicly-funded medicine. Once the government is in control of health care expenditures, they can write rules and regulations that the recipients must abide by. It's only a matter of time until motorcycles are deemed a public health hazard like smoking or alcoholism.

Meh. Already got the talk, not from my mom, but from my mother in law. A shut-in who also is upset when I climb a ladder to fix her roof, get under their car to fix it, or get on an airplane to do my job. Because to her, as it is with some people, everything is a threat.

And to her old country way of thinking, the man is the provider in the family and if something bad happened to me, my wife would be penniless. My wife is a doctor, I am a glorified roady and warehouseman.

Basically I don’t ride to her house, and we don’t talk about motorcycles.

My mom? I showed her a picture of my CB when I bought it and she said it looked very neat and pretty. Recently, I took her to lunch, and on the way, I asked if she would mind if I stopped at a motorcycle shop to pick up a part that I had ordered. She wanted to come in with me to browse. She picked up a jacket and felt the armor, and looked at all of the helmets. “You wear all of this safety stuff, right?”

Yes, Mom.

Ok then.

Wow, that's an arresting insight regarding human nature. Some people are risk-averse to the point that it interferes with the enjoyment of all that life has to offer.

I've always thought that's one of the primary dangers of publicly-funded medicine. Once the government is in control of health care expenditures, they can write rules and regulations that the recipients must abide by. It's only a matter of time until motorcycles are deemed a public health hazard like smoking or alcoholism.
Interesting note. To my knowledge, I have never heard a discussion in any of the provinces to police which citizens are conditionally restricted from receiving health service. Fortunately (for the system), many riders never make it to receive the service.

The point is, they could. There’s a finite amount of funding provided, and decisions about priorities are made on the basis of maximum social utility vs. any given individual’s well-being or personal freedom. It would be an easy bureaucratic decision to outlaw motorcycles, and reallocate the resultant healthcare savings to better serve the larger population. Bureaucracies restrict personal choice when your choices run counter to their objectives.

The point is, they could. There’s a finite amount of funding provided, and decisions about priorities are made on the basis of maximum social utility vs. any given individual’s well-being or personal freedom. It would be an easy bureaucratic decision to outlaw motorcycles, and reallocate the resultant healthcare savings to better serve the larger population. Bureaucracies restrict personal choice when your choices run counter to their objectives.
Indeed that is always a possibility, as with many things in any government. I suppose if something like that were to happen, then a more serious underlying serious social is in play affecting likely everyone and everything.

 

[Stichill]

We’re already there in western society, unfortunately. It looks like there’s no turning back until we’re all Venezuela.

 

[Haggard Rider_imp]

In the UK we have quite stringent licensing and testing requirements for riding/driving most things that are powered and use the Queens Highway.

This being so, it has occurred to me that, just as when first being allowed onto the road on a motorbike/scooter/moped, you need first to take and pass your CBT (Compulsory Basic Training) why not make taking a CBT part of the Car Driving Test?

Indeed, I believe motorcycle awareness is now (or soon will be) a specific part of the compulsory Theory examination so at least something is happening, but why not go further?

That way, everyone gets to appreciate what it means to ride a bike (and may actually enjoy it) so may therefore be a little more aware when they graduate to their cages?

Regarding the stat saying motorcycle accidents cost six times more, is this because they treat six times more biker casualties than car casualties, that there are six times more bike accidents requiring hospitalisation than car accidents or that the actual casualties are six times more beaten up so require six times the care, so six times the cost? Just curious.

 

[misterprofessionality]

I'm assuming this sort of thinking is why motorcycle sales are down. The snowflakes are scared to do anything beside play video games and stare at their phones. There are inherent risks in everything we do including walking out the front door. The trick is to be aware of dangers and mitigate their consequences. Common sense really.

And as my dad always said, "If the left one don't get ya, the right one will." So I suppose we should all just have fun doing what we love while we are above ground.

got to chime on on this, as one of the only millennials on the forum. the fact is that, for most people, a motorcycle is a secondary means of transportation. if you buy one, it's a secondary vehicle. most millennials absolutely cannot afford that kind of recreational expenditure. it's simple economics. millennials by and large will not spend money on something they can't afford. it's got zero to do with danger/risk aversion. one of the only reasons i started riding in my 20's was because i broke the system by using my bike as my primary means of transportation and giving up cars. everybody else in my peer group won't touch motorcycles, because they can't justify the expense when they already have a car.

got to chime on on this, as one of the only millennials on the forum. the fact is that, for most people, a motorcycle is a secondary means of transportation. if you buy one, it's a secondary vehicle. most millennials absolutely cannot afford that kind of recreational expenditure. it's simple economics. millennials by and large will not spend money on something they can't afford. it's got zero to do with danger/risk aversion. one of the only reasons i started riding in my 20's was because i broke the system by using my bike as my primary means of transportation and giving up cars. everybody else in my peer group won't touch motorcycles, because they can't justify the expense when they already have a car.
I'm with you on that. My first bike was in '91 after i graduated HS because it was $800 and I could afford it. My car blew up so that's the route I went. You would think then that the millennials would shift TOWARD motorcycles for the $ savings?

There are two big barriers in place that prevent that from happening: 1) perception. the perception is, if you ask around, that motorcycles are, in fact, not cheaper than cars. it's objectively untrue, but it's the perception. people see motorcycles as if they're actually more expensive than owning a car. they think motorcyclists are changing their tires every 4000 miles and constantly having to do engine repairs. they think motorcycles can't handle 6 digit mileage. they think motorcycle gear costs thousands of dollars. they truly believe it's a pure luxury pursuit. people would have to be enlightened and educated about these misconceptions before folks can shift toward buying more motorcycles, and i believe it starts with the manufacturers. they've never really attempted to market their products as transportation solutions, only as fun machines. a shift in marketing toward more practical applications and safety training would make a huge difference.

2) social pressure. people are told all the time about how dangerous motorcycling is, and they're right, but not for the reasons you'd think. it's dangerous because of the lack of training and the culture of carelessness that surrounds it. more measures like mandatory training, mandatory protective gear, and more strict licensure practices would sharply reduce the number of traffic deaths related to motorcycles, and over time people would begin to develop a familiarity with them. the more motorcycles you see on the road, the more accepted it becomes as a mode of transportation, and the more people will be willing to give it a try.

if these two things make a 180 in the near future you could see a huge turnaround for the motorcycle industry, but it's going to take the manufacturers putting up big $$$ for political lobbying and advertising to accomplish them both. This is what my generation needs to be shown the advantages of motorcycles.

There are two big barriers in place that prevent that from happening: 1) perception. the perception is, if you ask around, that motorcycles are, in fact, not cheaper than cars. it's objectively untrue, but it's the perception. people see motorcycles as if they're actually more expensive than owning a car. they think motorcyclists are changing their tires every 4000 miles and constantly having to do engine repairs. they think motorcycles can't handle 6 digit mileage. they think motorcycle gear costs thousands of dollars. they truly believe it's a pure luxury pursuit. people would have to be enlightened and educated about these misconceptions before folks can shift toward buying more motorcycles, and i believe it starts with the manufacturers. they've never really attempted to market their products as transportation solutions, only as fun machines. a shift in marketing toward more practical applications and safety training would make a huge difference.

2) social pressure. people are told all the time about how dangerous motorcycling is, and they're right, but not for the reasons you'd think. it's dangerous because of the lack of training and the culture of carelessness that surrounds it. more measures like mandatory training, mandatory protective gear, and more strict licensure practices would sharply reduce the number of traffic deaths related to motorcycles, and over time people would begin to develop a familiarity with them. the more motorcycles you see on the road, the more accepted it becomes as a mode of transportation, and the more people will be willing to give it a try.

if these two things make a 180 in the near future you could see a huge turnaround for the motorcycle industry, but it's going to take the manufacturers putting up big $$$ for political lobbying and advertising to accomplish them both. This is what my generation needs to be shown the advantages of motorcycles.

Interesting. I spent 17 years in the motorcycle industry and have been riding on the street almost daily for 54 years and I would argue that motorcycles are a lot more expensive to own than cars, a lot more, and that motorcycle gear does cost thousands of dollars (plus its a hassle to get in and out of every time you stop at a gas station or store or show up for work) that it's inconvenient to ride a motorcycle weather wise the majority of the days of the year, and that it's an absoluetly dangerous endeavor, even with experience and training. Imo you have to really WANT to ride a motorcycle or the factors against it would logically keep you from doing so.

i can't tell you how many times i've heard those talking points. it's ok. it's a commonly held misconception. The core issue is that you're comparing motorcycling at it's peak, to cars used only for practical purposes. that is not a correct comparison. if you (smartly, not frivolously) purchase a motorcycle for $5000, and compare it to a car that is running at the same level of reliability, you will almost certainly find that the car costs at minimum 3x more than the motorcycle. already you can see the enormous savings.

moving on to ownership costs: a common misconception is that motorcycle tires cost a lot more than car tires, this depends on a lot of factors, but on average a motorcyclist that is purchasing and using his tires (smartly, not frivolously) will encounter a cost that is only *slightly* higher than that same car we discussed. Oil changes are subject to a similar misconception. people like to talk about how cars take oil changes at around 6k miles while motorcycles often take them at around 4k miles. this is true, but it's a trifling cost, really barely noticable on the scale of years. but here's the real kicker. here's why motorcycles are definitely, objectively, and without question cheaper to own than cars: INSURANCE. holy cow. the average rider saves thousands of dollars per year on mandatory insurance coverage in the US when compared to the insurance required for car drivers. even when you compare only the bottom basement minimum liability insurances, the motorcycle riders often save over $1000 per year when compared to the owner of a comparable car. an older bike can clear under $100 per year on minimum liability insurance. that's HUGE. any marginal increase in regular tire and oil change costs is eclipsed and forgotten in the face of such huge savings. insurance is really the game changer that proves my point as fact. but that's not all. now we get to talk about the second huge savings pool: GAS. the kind of bike that you would buy for $5000, if you're being smart and not frivolous, gets approx. 70-80mpg on average. the kind of comparable car that you can buy at the same level of reliability is going to be around 30 mpg these days. you can run the math in your local area, and it will be more for some and less for others, but based on average unleaded fuel costs in the USA right now the average rider is going to save around $50 per month on fuel costs. that's HUGE over the course of a year. i've already put $1000 in my pocket for insurance, now i'm going to put another $600 in for gas, on top of the massive savings of being able to buy a vehicle that's 1/3 the total cost....

on to gear: you're stating that gear costs thousands of dollars, but again you're making the same mistake that most people like to make: they're comparing the "best" options, without shopping smartly. the truth is that one can gear up adequately for under $200. that's practically a one-time cost, or at least a once-every-3-years cost.

you can see that in the hands of somebody who is focused on using a motorcycle as a practical means of transportation rather than a recreational machine, owning a motorcycle saves enormous amounts of money over a car. how do i know all this? i'll tell you. because i lived it. when i stopped driving cars over a decade ago i did it for financial reasons, and i was proven SO VERY RIGHT. the extra money I had in my pocket at the end of the first year was so staggering that it changed my life. i could never have pulled myself out of the muck without the savings i garnered from switching to motorcycles. so, rest assured, it's definitely cheaper to live on a motorcycle than a car.

 

[the Ferret]

Sorry MP have to disagree on all counts. You are not the only one who has lived with just a motorcycle. I did for several years back in the 70's. I think I have a little motorcycle experience I can rely on for my opinion.

but lets compare apple to apples, and we're talking in developed countries not Asia or something.

My 2003 Honda ST 1300 motorcycle cost the same as my 2003 Honda Civic, both cost right at $17,000 dollars. Both were liquid cooled 4 cyl engines with shaft drive and about 125 hp. Both averaged about 40 mpg. Full coverage insurance on the Civic was much cheaper than full coverage insurance on the motorcycle. The Civic required no valve adjustments for the life of the car, the ST a costly valve inspection every 8000 miles. Tires on my Civic went 80,000 miles set. On the ST an average of 10,000 miles. Brakes on the Civic cost $99 and went 120,0000 on the front and I never did replace the rears in 203,000 miles. Set of brake pads for the ST was about $150 and lasted about 20,000 miles. Oil changes were a wash about $30 for each. Spark plugs went 110,000 miles on the Civic, 25,000 miles on the ST. Air cleaner about 50K on the car, 25K on the bike and an air cleaner for the Civic was $13.00 and $37 for the ST. Brake fluid on the ST needed to be replaced every 2 years/12,000 mi at $100 a shot (mostly labor). Never replaced the brake fluid on the Civic. Put 110,000 miles on the ST and was lucky to find someone to buy a motorcycle with that many miles on it for $1000, put 203,000 miles on the Civic and sold it to the first person that came to look at it for $3500.

Yes, you can buy cheap gear but I wouldn't. I don't buy the best/most expensive like Arai or Shoei or Shuberth or Klim or Aerostitch or First Gear even, but buy average/decent stuff because I wear it every day and want it to last a couple of years, HJC and Tourmaster mostly. A decent modular helmet runs about $150, jacket $250, pants $175, boots $200 and gloves $50 and a rainsuit $80..how much is that? $905 so not quite a grand. Didn't have to buy any of that stuff to drive the Civic.

and there is no denying that riding a motorcycle is far more dangerous than driving a car, especially if you count miles driven (statistics don't lie)

and driving a car you don't get wet when it rains, you can run AC in the summer to stay cool, heater in the winter to stay warm, and even turn the radio on to stay entertained. You can carry more luggage, carry more passengers (like a wife and kids) all in relative comfort.

I still say you have to WANT to ride a motorcycle to do so.

Guess we just have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

[Nortoon_imp]

Two of the factors of riding gear and weather that the Ferret has mentioned is what I am struggling with.

Motorcycle gear is a hassle to get in and out of every time you stop at a restaurant or store. Its not too bad in the cooler seasons of spring and fall, but in the summer it is just too hot and makes the ride unpleasant.

My motorcycle season normally is only 6 months a year. Despite that I was able to an average of 11,000 kilometers per year from 2014 to 2017. But over the 2 years the climate here has changed. Last year the winter was longer, spring cold and wet, and the summer hot. I only managed to ride 4400 kilometers. This year it is worse. Winter was longer, spring colder and wetter, and July already blistering hot.

If that doesn't deter new riders, the cost of motorcycles, accessories, riding gear, and insurance certainly may. Despite never having an accident in 28 years of riding, my motorcycle insurance is more expensive than either my expensive home or car insurance.

Another other deterrent is traffic. If I lived in the city I would not own a motorcycle. Everything is so crowded and busy an accident can happen in the blink of an eye. It is a perilous and unpleasant chore, rather than a pleasant and scenic ride in the country.

 

[Ben70_imp]

Google "motorcycle riders as organ donors" and among many others, you will find a NYT article stating that riders provide the best source of high quality parts, as the relatively otherwise healthy young men which comprise the largest part of the demographic often suffer brain trauma leaving most everything else relatively unscathed.
Also, there is an uptick of available parts in areas not requiring helmets.
Heck, they should be giving away machines to riders that have donor cards, and make helmets optional if they are really concerned about the greater good!

Ben

 

[Stichill]

Nortoon, you might be the perfect candidate for an Aerostich riding suit. All-weather protection, easy on=easy off. Might extend your riding season greatly. I envy a buddy of mine with the latest Olympia Air Glide gear. Waterproof, with big zip-open panels for fresh air.

With the longer daylight hours, especially further north, riding might be an activity that's restricted to morning and evening hours. If don't know about where you are, but even here in Kentucky we have daylight from about 6:30 am to 9:00 pm.

On the subject of car vs. bike economy, if it came down to economics alone and only one vehicle could be owned, I'd drive a car. I don't think a bike is really versatile enough to be sole transportation, especially in regions with actual winters. So I agree with ferret that motorcycle riding is more "want" than financial necessity. Now, an interesting situation would be if you had a cheap car as your second vehicle to a motorcycle as primary vehicle. The car would not have to be the newest or the most perfectly reliable. Heck, I have a spare car. It's a 2004 PT Cruiser with 175,000 miles that was my daughter's high school and college car. It's worth nothing, costs nothing to insure, and state property tax is negligible. I made it safe and reliable by installing new belts, motor/trans mounts, hoses, radiator, battery, brakes, tires, FWD half-shafts/CV joints, front struts, front roll bar bushings/links, rear springs/shocks, and front/read light assemblies. I made it livable with a new stereo and new hatch lift struts. Cosmetically it's in great shape. Hilariously my wife and I like going out in it with the sunroof open just for fun. I got the car back from my daughter for "free" and spent maybe $1500 plus my labor updating it. Drives like when it was new.

Google "motorcycle riders as organ donors" and among many others, you will find a NYT article stating that riders provide the best source of high quality parts, as the relatively otherwise healthy young men which comprise the largest part of the demographic often suffer brain trauma leaving most everything else relatively unscathed.
Also, there is an uptick of available parts in areas not requiring helmets.
Heck, they should be giving away machines to riders that have donor cards, and make helmets optional if they are really concerned about the greater good!

Ben

:rofl:

 

[LongRanger_imp]

In my experience the cost of motorcycle ownership per mile is considerably higher than an automobile, and like Stichill, if forced to have one or the other, I'd ditch the bike. The cost of tires alone -- $300 to enjoy 6000-8000 miles of riding, vs. $500 for 60,000 miles of utility in a car.

 

[Guth_imp]

As motorcyclists here in the States at least, we are more or less the Rodney Dangerfield amongst users of motorized transport. We get no respect. This is certainly nothing new. It has been this way for as long as I can remember. Our society has some very long held views of motorcycles and motorcycling that are "less than positive". Some of them are well founded while some of them aren't. I don't see this changing in my lifetime. But anyone contemplating getting around on just two wheels out on the street should be willing to acknowledge the inherit danger in my opinion. If this keeps more people off of motorcycles then so be it.

However, there are other changes afoot amongst younger people these days that also have an impact on motorcycling. My son is of the generation following the Millennials — Gen Z or the iGen depending on whom you consult. What stood out to me is just how many amongst this generation rejected or ignored not only motorcycles but cars as well. Some of them completely while others for maybe a year or a few years. They primarily choose to get around by mass transport instead. While such options were not available to myself and my friends growing up in a rural part of the country, we would have never contemplated this as an option even if it were available. But as I look around at the ever increasing amount of traffic that surrounds me I can't say that I blame them.

 

[misterprofessionality]

In my experience the cost of motorcycle ownership per mile is considerably higher than an automobile, and like Stichill, if forced to have one or the other, I'd ditch the bike. The cost of tires alone -- $300 to enjoy 6000-8000 miles of riding, vs. $500 for 60,000 miles of utility in a car.

This is what i meant by people grossly over estimating the cost of ownership on motorcycles. i typically buy tires that run for 15,000 miles plus easily (my current set, for example, was worth around 18k), and have never paid more than $250 for a set of tires. I think there's a lack of perspective on the **actual** cost of these things going around.

furthermore, I don't think i've ever seen a set of tires on a car last 60k miles. maybe (big maybe) 40k. so, by the time i've spent the same $500 that you have spent on your tires, i'e been riding for over 30k. it's really not as big of a difference as you're making it out to be.

secondly, you have to consider the amount of time we're talking about here. . The average person puts approx. 35 miles per day on their vehicle. many people put quite a lot less. that means it takes 3 or 4 years before you're seeing a cost benefit between car tires and motorcycle tires. after 8 years the gap widens, but it's been EIGHT YEARS!!! how much money have you saved on insurance by that time? THOUSANDS. car ownership is definitely more expensive. if insurance wasn't mandatory, i'd agree with you, but in todays society, insurance costs being what they are, you just can't say a comparable bike is more expensive to own than a car. there's no getting around that huge chunk of cash.

 

[GoldOxide_imp]

Possibly one thing we can all agree on: Riding is superb therapy, eh?

 

[Roper_imp]

And you can use the HOV lane without having to talk to someone
Well, if you do a comparison of cost-per-person transport, a motorcycle is extravagantly expensive compared to an Econoline 15 passenger van. But in the van, you're at a super high risk of dying from boredom.

 

[Henrik_imp]

This caught my attention in the op-ed:
Quote:The country’s largest trauma centre (at Sunnybrook Health Sciences Centre) found that motorcycle crashes cost the Ontario health care system six times more than car crashes do
I've always thought that's one of the primary dangers of publicly-funded medicine. Once the government is in control of health care expenditures, they can write rules and regulations that the recipients must abide by. It's only a matter of time until motorcycles are deemed a public health hazard like smoking or alcoholism.

Meh. Already got the talk, not from my mom, but from my mother in law. A shut-in who also is upset when I climb a ladder to fix her roof, get under their car to fix it, or get on an airplane to do my job. Because to her, as it is with some people, everything is a threat.

And to her old country way of thinking, the man is the provider in the family and if something bad happened to me, my wife would be penniless. My wife is a doctor, I am a glorified roady and warehouseman.

Basically I don’t ride to her house, and we don’t talk about motorcycles.

My mom? I showed her a picture of my CB when I bought it and she said it looked very neat and pretty. Recently, I took her to lunch, and on the way, I asked if she would mind if I stopped at a motorcycle shop to pick up a part that I had ordered. She wanted to come in with me to browse. She picked up a jacket and felt the armor, and looked at all of the helmets. “You wear all of this safety stuff, right?”

Yes, Mom.

Ok then.

Wow, that's an arresting insight regarding human nature. Some people are risk-averse to the point that it interferes with the enjoyment of all that life has to offer.

I've always thought that's one of the primary dangers of publicly-funded medicine. Once the government is in control of health care expenditures, they can write rules and regulations that the recipients must abide by. It's only a matter of time until motorcycles are deemed a public health hazard like smoking or alcoholism.

Meh. Already got the talk, not from my mom, but from my mother in law. A shut-in who also is upset when I climb a ladder to fix her roof, get under their car to fix it, or get on an airplane to do my job. Because to her, as it is with some people, everything is a threat.

And to her old country way of thinking, the man is the provider in the family and if something bad happened to me, my wife would be penniless. My wife is a doctor, I am a glorified roady and warehouseman.

Basically I don’t ride to her house, and we don’t talk about motorcycles.

My mom? I showed her a picture of my CB when I bought it and she said it looked very neat and pretty. Recently, I took her to lunch, and on the way, I asked if she would mind if I stopped at a motorcycle shop to pick up a part that I had ordered. She wanted to come in with me to browse. She picked up a jacket and felt the armor, and looked at all of the helmets. “You wear all of this safety stuff, right?”

Yes, Mom.

Ok then.

This seems to be a general fear in the US, and perhaps it would come true there should you move to a social healthcare system. Nevertheless, you will find that in Europe where social healthcare is the standard nothing of the sort has ever happened. We can look at Spain as a perfect example where motorcycles are extremely popular as a means of transport. For most of Europe, scooters and motorcycles are far more common as a means of transportation than what it has ever been in the US, in spite of social healthcare.

So, if looking at how things work out elsewhere, it does not seem as if this fear is actually realistic.

Wow, that's an arresting insight regarding human nature. Some people are risk-averse to the point that it interferes with the enjoyment of all that life has to offer.

 

[misterprofessionality]

This caught my attention in the op-ed:
Quote:The country’s largest trauma centre (at Sunnybrook Health Sciences Centre) found that motorcycle crashes cost the Ontario health care system six times more than car crashes do
I've always thought that's one of the primary dangers of publicly-funded medicine. Once the government is in control of health care expenditures, they can write rules and regulations that the recipients must abide by. It's only a matter of time until motorcycles are deemed a public health hazard like smoking or alcoholism.

Meh. Already got the talk, not from my mom, but from my mother in law. A shut-in who also is upset when I climb a ladder to fix her roof, get under their car to fix it, or get on an airplane to do my job. Because to her, as it is with some people, everything is a threat.

And to her old country way of thinking, the man is the provider in the family and if something bad happened to me, my wife would be penniless. My wife is a doctor, I am a glorified roady and warehouseman.

Basically I don’t ride to her house, and we don’t talk about motorcycles.

My mom? I showed her a picture of my CB when I bought it and she said it looked very neat and pretty. Recently, I took her to lunch, and on the way, I asked if she would mind if I stopped at a motorcycle shop to pick up a part that I had ordered. She wanted to come in with me to browse. She picked up a jacket and felt the armor, and looked at all of the helmets. “You wear all of this safety stuff, right?”

Yes, Mom.

Ok then.

Wow, that's an arresting insight regarding human nature. Some people are risk-averse to the point that it interferes with the enjoyment of all that life has to offer.

I've always thought that's one of the primary dangers of publicly-funded medicine. Once the government is in control of health care expenditures, they can write rules and regulations that the recipients must abide by. It's only a matter of time until motorcycles are deemed a public health hazard like smoking or alcoholism.

Meh. Already got the talk, not from my mom, but from my mother in law. A shut-in who also is upset when I climb a ladder to fix her roof, get under their car to fix it, or get on an airplane to do my job. Because to her, as it is with some people, everything is a threat.

And to her old country way of thinking, the man is the provider in the family and if something bad happened to me, my wife would be penniless. My wife is a doctor, I am a glorified roady and warehouseman.

Basically I don’t ride to her house, and we don’t talk about motorcycles.

My mom? I showed her a picture of my CB when I bought it and she said it looked very neat and pretty. Recently, I took her to lunch, and on the way, I asked if she would mind if I stopped at a motorcycle shop to pick up a part that I had ordered. She wanted to come in with me to browse. She picked up a jacket and felt the armor, and looked at all of the helmets. “You wear all of this safety stuff, right?”

Yes, Mom.

Ok then.

This seems to be a general fear in the US, and perhaps it would come true there should you move to a social healthcare system. Nevertheless, you will find that in Europe where social healthcare is the standard nothing of the sort has ever happened. We can look at Spain as a perfect example where motorcycles are extremely popular as a means of transport. For most of Europe, scooters and motorcycles are far more common as a means of transportation than what it has ever been in the US, in spite of social healthcare.

So, if looking at how things work out elsewhere, it does not seem as if this fear is actually realistic.

Wow, that's an arresting insight regarding human nature. Some people are risk-averse to the point that it interferes with the enjoyment of all that life has to offer.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but you also have helmet laws with much higher standards than ours, much more detailed and extensive mandatory motorcycle operation training, trial periods, tiered licenses, and all that jazz, right?

that's likely why the social healthcare does not interfere with motorcycling, because when you actually operate a motorcycle correctly with the proper training, it isn't nearly as dangerous as it is here in the US.