2017 CB1100 EX First Ride Review

[emptysea]

Ecu does fuel and ign curves. As in advance or retard, nothing to do with staggering of the cam timing.


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OK...so first off, thanks. Now, would changing the ignition curves change the engine tone or feel?

Also, and maybe this isn't the place for a discussion on basic mechanics, but how can valve timing be changed if the cam has not changed? (probably a dumb question, sorry)

 

[VLJ_imp]

Guth, do you think the obvious change in the engine note—not the exhaust volume, but the additional crunchy texture so easily heard in the comparison videos, and felt throughout the bike—can be explained solely by a shorter inlet tract and a smaller exhaust system?

That doesn't sound very plausible to me.

It doesn’t seem plausible that changes to the only 2 places the engine emits noise could change said noise?





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It doesn’t seem plausible that changes to the only 2 places the engine emits noise could change said noise?
No, it doesn't seem plausible that those two changes would create the different type of vibration felt throughout the bike, as well as the noticeably more arrhythmic texture of the sound.

The difference is similar to but nowhere near as pronounced as the difference one hears and feels when switching from an old R1 to a crossplane R1. Shorter inlets and slightly smaller OEM exhaust pipes can't explain such a noticeable change to the basic feel of the bike, never mind the different tone.

 

[Flytech99_imp]

Ecu does fuel and ign curves. As in advance or retard, nothing to do with staggering of the cam timing.


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OK...so first off, thanks. Now, would changing the ignition curves change the engine tone or feel?

Also, and maybe this isn't the place for a discussion on basic mechanics, but how can valve timing be changed if the cam has not changed? (probably a dumb question, sorry)

OK...so first off, thanks. Now, would changing the ignition curves change the engine tone or feel?

Also, and maybe this isn't the place for a discussion on basic mechanics, but how can valve timing be changed if the cam has not changed? (probably a dumb question, sorry)
Valve timing is 100% controlled by the cam, either by changing the shape of its lobes or its relative angle to the rest of the valve train (variable valve timing).

Ignition timing is purely electronic and can certainly effect the engine's feel in a negative way, especially if not optimized with AFR. Heat and excessive head pressure are also byproducts of aggressive timing which is obviously not wanted with air/oil cooling (and doesn't support the longer valve inspection intervals on the '17 models). I don't see how Honda could've only used ignition timing to get a FELT effect without changing a lot of other things to compensate (to include power output).

 

[Guth_imp]

Thanks, PowerDubs... Questions from a guy who performed his last timing adjustment on a 1970 Plymouth in his Automotives class in 1978:

ecu tuning would not change the timing, correct? that basically controls the fuel mix, right? Or does the ecu control ignition as well?

The best way to know for sure would be to reference the factory service manual. These specifications appear in the manual.

Exactly my point...just much better stated.

Exactly my point...just much better stated.
Oh jeez, I was out for a while. I must have missed more of this thread than I realized, lol.

 

[Flytech99_imp]

Excerpt from from interview with engineer designing first gen CB1100 engine form Honda Worldwide site:

Sekiya:
On the hardware side, phased valve timing gives the engine its characteristic feel around the 3,000 rpm range. How did you create the engine's personality?

Minami:
Basically, straight-four engines run smooth as long as all four pistons move the same way. My initial thoughts were, to give the engine a deep rumble, we'd have to change the movement a bit.
We ended up shifting the valve timing of cylinders 1 and 2, compared to cylinders 3 and 4, and by continuing to change the gap, found the right combustion out-of-sync feel.

Sekiya:
Valve timing is usually changed or made variable to increase output, but your aim was completely different. Maybe the exact opposite of conventional wisdom.

Minami:
Precisely. We took the opposite approach to conventional thinking, so we weren't sure if it would work.

If the cam is the same across the board, then this must have went full circle and surfaced again when the '17 was introduced??? Regardless, I think it's pretty obvious this is a key reason why the CB's power output remains modest... Honda was clearly more concerned with feel and sound than HP (which is OK-fine by me!)

 

[Guth_imp]

I remember back when the CB1100 had yet to be released here in the States. Someone wrote the the bike contained a single 36mm throttle body and then this was repeated numerous times until people figured out that wasn't the case. The only sure way to know these things would be to reference the service manual.

I have no doubt that there is some placebo effect involved. That's honestly one of the best things about buying any new vehicle — it's just such an awesome feeling. But that's not to imply that changes haven't been made. I have no doubt that there are a number of differences between my 2013 model and VLJ's 2017 model. As to what those specific changes are, I'm personally not too concerned about it but I would like to make sure that we're keeping our facts straight as much as possible (or at least get them straightened out as soon as possible) around here if for no other reason than for future reference. That is part of the value this forum offers after all.

 

[VLJ_imp]

If it turns out that the reports were wrong, and the only changes made to the '17 were in fact the shorter inlet tracts and exhaust system, and those two small changes somehow made my bike feel and sound that much different from Eric's '14, well, who cares how Honda did it, right? All that matters is that they did it, and one blip of my throttle was all it took for me to realize that the '17 not only sounded but also felt very different from the '14, and quite a bit cooler.

As for the possibility of erroneous info popping up in various reviews, sure, it's entirely possible, but the reviewer in the link I provided who stated that the '17's combustion chamber and fins were altered to help Honda meet the new Euro 4 requirements was mighty specific with those particular bits of reportage. Either someone at Honda fed him that info or he made it up out of thin air, and the latter seems wildly unlikely.

 

[alprider]

i can 100% confirm bcos i have a 14 and 17 model side by side: its a different feeling......and both are fine in her ways.....amen.....

 

[Guth_imp]

If it turns out that the reports were wrong, and the only changes made to the '17 were in fact the shorter inlet tracts and exhaust system, and those two small changes somehow made my bike feel and sound that much different from Eric's '14, well, who cares how Honda did it, right? All that matters is that they did it, and one blip of my throttle was all it took for me to realize that the '17 not only sounded but also felt very different from the '14, and quite a bit cooler.

As for the possibility of erroneous info popping up in various reviews, sure, it's entirely possible, but the reviewer in the link I provided who stated that the '17's combustion chamber and fins were altered to help Honda meet the new Euro 4 requirements was mighty specific with those particular bits of reportage. Either someone at Honda fed him that info or he made it up out of thin air, and the latter seems wildly unlikely.

I get it, my Staintune has the same effect. Some have reported around here that based on what they read the 2017 has more torque and power down low and has less up top than the previous models. That didn't make sense to me (I thought Honda might have headed in the opposite direction), but maybe there's something to that after all. Like I've said from very early on, these bikes are mostly for show (I bought mine primarily for the looks, and I'm not sure Honda would still be selling them if they weren't so beautiful to look at). The fact that they are actually great motorcycles with a little bit of git up 'n go is just the icing on the cake for me.

 

[itstuantran_imp]

This is well described about how the RS sounds "It sounds louder, deeper, and meaner, and you can feel the individual pulses more distinctly. It's almost like a V4 now. Call it halfway between a normal I4 and a V4."

At 2nd gear and rev it up to 3500 - 4000rpm, distinct sound coming out like something in between of V4 and I4

Guth, I'm no engineer, so I couldn't tell you how they altered the timing, but in their press releases and interviews Honda's engineers boasted that the timing of cylinders one and two were revised for the '17 motor in order to create a lumpier feel at low RPM, along with a more characterful tone. This new tone is clearly heard in any of the side-by-side comparison demonstrations, and with the revised, shorter exhaust system the sound is definitely deeper and snarlier.

My bike absolutely sounds and feels different from Eric's '14 Standard. It sounds louder, deeper, and meaner, and you can feel the individual pulses more distinctly. It's almost like a V4 now. Call it halfway between a normal I4 and a V4.

I don't know what the goal (or net result) was in shortening the inlet tracts, but that was the other stated change to the '17 motor.

 

[PowerDubs_imp]

Morning guys...

I can't believe this is still being debated. :angel:

I get it- the shiny expensive newer motorcycle has to be improved right?

Sorry- it is 100% the exact same engine. Go look at the parts break down.

Guth, do you think the obvious change in the engine note—not the exhaust volume, but the additional crunchy texture so easily heard in the comparison videos, and felt throughout the bike—can be explained solely by a shorter inlet tract and a smaller exhaust system?

That doesn't sound very plausible to me.

It doesn’t seem plausible that changes to the only 2 places the engine emits noise could change said noise?





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It doesn’t seem plausible that changes to the only 2 places the engine emits noise could change said noise?
No, it doesn't seem plausible that those two changes would create the different type of vibration felt throughout the bike, as well as the noticeably more arrhythmic texture of the sound.

The difference is similar to but nowhere near as pronounced as the difference one hears and feels when switching from an old R1 to a crossplane R1. Shorter inlets and slightly smaller OEM exhaust pipes can't explain such a noticeable change to the basic feel of the bike, never mind the different tone.

Sure it can. You just aren't experienced with such things apparently.

Go listen to a 2004 VW R32. It has a *very* distinctive warble to the exhaust. Yes- all VR6 have a unique sound- but none exactly like the 2004 R32 (only year Mk4 sold in the U.S.)

The same engine was sold in numerous other cars- Audi TT, Vw Touareg, Porsche Cayenne, Audi A3, VW Eos, etc- none have the same distinct awesome sound the R32 has. Yet the engines are the same, same cams, same valves, etc.

The difference is the R32 has a very special designed muffler with chambers in it that cause reflections that manifest as aural texture. Although the engine inherently still sounds good when the muffler is swapped out- nothing sounds as good as the factory muffler.

*Now- go look at the internal design of the new CB mufflers. Multi resonances going on in there as well- on purpose.

If it turns out that the reports were wrong, and the only changes made to the '17 were in fact the shorter inlet tracts and exhaust system, and those two small changes somehow made my bike feel and sound that much different from Eric's '14, well, who cares how Honda did it, right? All that matters is that they did it, and one blip of my throttle was all it took for me to realize that the '17 not only sounded but also felt very different from the '14, and quite a bit cooler.

As for the possibility of erroneous info popping up in various reviews, sure, it's entirely possible, but the reviewer in the link I provided who stated that the '17's combustion chamber and fins were altered to help Honda meet the new Euro 4 requirements was mighty specific with those particular bits of reportage. Either someone at Honda fed him that info or he made it up out of thin air, and the latter seems wildly unlikely.

That page is just rehashing the original info from many years ago. At no point is it actually saying 'these changes were made from the 2013/14 model'.
What you hear with staggered cyls, crank journal timing or cam timing is out of time pulses.

Take a look at the new muffler-

Instead of a typical straight through perforated tube- they are creating their own pulses within the muffler to enhance the sound.
....AND here is one of the 2 camshafts, you can see it hasn't changed-

https://www.louispowersportsonline.com/products/14210-mgc-000

 

[alprider]

keywords are ev. too : Stroke offset , ignition sequence....and Stroke offset has/can too influence of sound and vibrations.......(the word crossplane we had here already) what and how made here honda eventual realy something : i dont know...

and we know too the konstruction of a exhaust/Air intake can have influence of power/torque.....and this (changes in this part) confirm honda self by the 17 models.... in low middel rpm area is more torque there and the max torque is nomore at 5000rpm its now at 5500rpm....

my dealer has a Dynojet, maybe i put it in next months one time there.....compare directly with my blue DLX ev. i cant bcos there i have not the OEM exhaust

again..the total drive feeling (included the other kind suspensions and sound ) is some differently between the models not big but it is....so i can say proud: i have the same models but not the same one smileee...

 

[alprider]

ops saw just now : same camshafts.......

 

[VLJ_imp]

PowerDubs, you seem to be intentionally skipping over the key parts of what I'm telling you. I'm not just talking about the different sound of the '17. I'm talking about the different type of motor vibration felt throughout the entire bike. Rather than the usual silky smooth, high-frequency sensation we all know and love from Honda I-4s, the '17 has an arrhythmic, one-beat-at-a-time pulsing effect, similar to a V4. It's not just about what you hear, it's about what you feel in the seat, between your knees, in your feet, and in the bars.

The motor has an entirely different texture. Again, it's not as pronounced as the difference between an old R1 and a crossplane R1, but it's a similar type of difference. As alprider just confirmed—not that I require such confirmation, since I felt it myself, switching from Eric's bike to mine—the '17 motor doesn't feel anything like the '14.

Also, no, that link I provided isn't just a rehash of info from many years ago. When the CB was first introduced, Euro 4 emissions regulations didn't exist. He specifically mentioned that the CB's combustion chambers and fins had to be altered by Honda for the 2017 model in order to be Euro 4-compliant. That sentence could not have been written in 2013.

 

[jedd_imp]

I've been wondering whether the slip on may have more to do w/ nuances than just for looks.

This back piece on the '14 dlx & ex being right at the biginning of the slip on...

...is this conical piece w/ a back plate doing the work to stop exhaust pulses?


b/c on the '17, it's not there...

 

[Guth_imp]

PowerDubs, you seem to be intentionally skipping over the key parts of what I'm telling you. I'm not just talking about the different sound of the '17. I'm talking about the different type of motor vibration felt throughout the entire bike. Rather than the usual silky smooth, high-frequency sensation we all know and love from Honda I-4s, the '17 has an arrhythmic, one-beat-at-a-time pulsing effect, similar to a V4. It's not just about what you hear, it's about what you feel in the seat, between your knees, in your feet, and in the bars.

The motor has an entirely different texture. Again, it's not as pronounced as the difference between an old R1 and a crossplane R1, but it's a similar type of difference. As alprider just confirmed—not that I require such confirmation, since I felt it myself, switching from Eric's bike to mine—the '17 motor doesn't feel anything like the '14.

Also, no, that link I provided isn't just a rehash of info from many years ago. When the CB was first introduced, Euro 4 emissions regulations didn't exist. He specifically mentioned that the CB's combustion chambers and fins had to be altered by Honda for the 2017 model in order to be Euro 4-compliant. That sentence could not have been written in 2013.

VLJ, the link below is to a interview from 2014. Look at the intro question — the bike was already 5 years old. They are talking about how the bike was designed from the the beginning to be compliant with Euro 4 regulations which were coming in 2016. Manufacturers must be made aware of such regulations far in advance to have time to prepare for them in terms of design and manufacturing. They don't respond to those kinds of changes after the fact. In the case of the CB1100, Honda did so from the very beginning. They also mention other things that you've brought up here as being new for the 2017 model. As I said before, I realize that there are some differences unique to the 2017 model. I just don't think that they are quite as extensive you've been lead to believe.

Here is the quote from back then mentioning the Euro 4 compliance:

"The oil-cooling structure around the spark plug seating was a headache, and since we didn't want the CB1100 to be one-off model, we considered not only Japan-domestic emission regulations, but Euro4 regulations for 2016."

Designing a Bike that Expresses Desires and Emotions

I'd say that based on this thread, Honda accomplished exactly that.

 

[VLJ_imp]

Guth, good info there. The only thing it doesn't address from my link was the guy's assertion that the combustion chambers and fins were altered specifically for the '17 model. He may be dead wrong, but that's what he wrote.

In any case, perhaps Honda's new exhaust system does magically transform not just the sound of the '17 but also the entire feel of the motor. Whatever the cause, I'm happy they managed it. The '17 sounds and feels much cooler than the '14 to me. By comparison, the full Akrapovic system I added to my XSR certainly changed the sound of the bike, and also the power, but not the feel of the motor. The vibration throughout the bike, the feeling of each pulse, remains unchanged. This has usually been my experience when changing exhausts.

In this area, perhaps Honda has truly raised the bar.

 

[Guth_imp]

For the most part, I think that the guy who wrote the review you read acted a bit irresponsibly. Perhaps he was misinformed by the information presented to him or he simply misunderstood some of the information that was fed to him.

But I don't discredit the impact an exhaust system change can have. When I swapped out my stock exhaust can for the Staintune unit, the bike felt like it had changed in a very notable way. At one point, I went to the trouble to change back to the OEM can for comparison. Trying to be brutally honest with myself, I realized that Staintune did make a difference but perhaps not quite as notable as I had imagined. (I kept the stock exhaust on for a while, not just for a day.) When I swapped back to the Staintune, none of that mattered, the huge smile was instantly back on my face. From a mental standpoint (and therefore even physically to some degree I suppose) the bike was just so much more "satisfying". That was, and still is, good enough for me. Enough so to justify the money I spent on the Staintune. I never bought it for the performance gains anyway. The tone of the exhaust note was my main concern. I don't tend to accelerate nearly as fast as the bike is capable of as I love to hear the exhaust note growl while growing in pitch over time.

Nothing that I've mentioned here is meant to discredit the possibility of a difference in feel between Eric's bike and your bike. There are likely some differences in the vibrations produced even from one CB1100 to the next from same model year. It's not like these things are stamped out of a single piece of metal. But I'm also guessing that any differences you feel can't help but be magnified to some degree by the fact that you've been wanting one of these bikes for a long time and your sense of everything about the bike is heightened by the experience of finally owning one of your own. Few things of mechanical nature incite as much passion as motorcycles and taking ownership of a new motorcycle in particular has got to be near the top of that specific chart. At least it should be if a person finds the right bike. Others who focus on nothing other than spec sheets might find the notion of "designing a bike that expresses desires and emotions" to be pure marketing fluff, but I really don't think that's the case with folks that are truly attracted to the CB1100.

 

[VLJ_imp]

Guth, I get that, and I definitely do have the excitement you describe, but the different feel of the motor in my bike compared to Eric's is not a placebo effect. It's obvious. One zips, the other growls. Talking the feel here, not the sound. It's the difference between running a comb vs a brush across your palm.

 

[pdedse]

For the most part, I think that the guy who wrote the review you read acted a bit irresponsibly. Perhaps he was misinformed by the information presented to him or he simply misunderstood some of the information that was fed to him.

But I don't discredit the impact an exhaust system change can have. When I swapped out my stock exhaust can for the Staintune unit, the bike felt like it had changed in a very notable way. At one point, I went to the trouble to change back to the OEM can for comparison. Trying to be brutally honest with myself, I realized that Staintune did make a difference but perhaps not quite as notable as I had imagined. (I kept the stock exhaust on for a while, not just for a day.) When I swapped back to the Staintune, none of that mattered, the huge smile was instantly back on my face. From a mental standpoint (and therefore even physically to some degree I suppose) the bike was just so much more "satisfying". That was, and still is, good enough for me. Enough so to justify the money I spent on the Staintune. I never bought it for the performance gains anyway. The tone of the exhaust note was my main concern. I don't tend to accelerate nearly as fast as the bike is capable of as I love to hear the exhaust note growl while growing in pitch over time.

Nothing that I've mentioned here is meant to discredit the possibility of a difference in feel between Eric's bike and your bike. There are likely some differences in the vibrations produced even from one CB1100 to the next from same model year. It's not like these things are stamped out of a single piece of metal. But I'm also guessing that any differences you feel can't help but be magnified to some degree by the fact that you've been wanting one of these bikes for a long time and your sense of everything about the bike is heightened by the experience of finally owning one of your own. Few things of mechanical nature incite as much passion as motorcycles and taking ownership of a new motorcycle in particular has got to be near the top of that specific chart. At least it should be if a person finds the right bike. Others who focus on nothing other than spec sheets might find the notion of "designing a bike that expresses desires and emotions" to be pure marketing fluff, but I really don't think that's the case with folks that are truly attracted to the CB1100.

This up there and this down below are why I find this forum so fun:

Guth, I get that, and I definitely do have the excitement you describe, but the different feel of the motor in my bike compared to Eric's is not a placebo effect. It's obvious. One zips, the other growls. Talking the feel here, not the sound. It's the difference between running a comb vs a brush across your palm.

:beerchug: