2017 CB1100 EX First Ride Review

[Flytech99_imp]

popgun, I don't think the shorter inlet tracts and exhaust would account for the different feel of the motor, which the '17 certainly has, compared to the '14. Rev the throttle, and the '14 has the typical ziiiiing...ziiiiing...ziiiing zero-vibration feel of just about every I-4 Honda has ever made. Rev the '17's throttle and there is a distinctive, unevenly-spaced pulsing that you can feel throughout the bike. It's along the lines of an inline Triple or V4, with a similar sort of additional texture.

Although I don't know how they achieved it, this additional texture is exactly what Honda said they gave the '17 motor by changing the timing on the first two cylinders.

mickey, this video has been posted here before...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNOCYoK-GDo&t=173s

...which shows the two models being fired up side by side, and you can clearly hear the different engine note of the '17 model. It's not as smooth as the previous-gen motor. I've seen a better video of this same presentation by Honda, in which they go into greater depth with the sound comparison, but I can't locate it at the moment.

That is interesting for sure. Kawasaki claims to have focused a lot of effort on creating a target sound (deeper/raspier?) for the Z900RS as well. I believe there's even a press release where they admitted it was the first time they had tuned an exhaust for sound. Some consider the modern inline-4 feel and soundtrack to be "boring" so I guess that's what Honda and Kawasaki are responding to.

 

[VLJ_imp]

mickey, this review mentions the revised valve timing on the first two cylinders, as well as the '17's new combustion chamber and slightly thicker base of the cooling fins...

Pardon Our Interruption

 

[emptysea]

Isn't there a difference between the RS and the EX, though?

 

[alprider]

air-engine- exhaust parts are the same....

 

[VLJ_imp]

Isn't there a difference between the RS and the EX, though?

Not in terms of the motors and exhaust systems, no.

 

[emptysea]

Are you sure? because the discussion comparing the exhaust tones, buzziness (which I don't experience on my 2013, btw), seems to call into question that there is a difference in the timing between the two US versions of the bike. One possible explanation could be that some folks have read about the RS and assumed that it was set up the same (regarding the engine) as the EX. I mean, I don't care that much since I'm not in the least bit interested in getting rid of my 2013 ABS, but it might be worth doing some research.

What cracks me up about all of this is that we should have the answer about he timing instantaneously...and yet no one seems to be able to find out the timing on each version of the bike so as to prove things one way or another. Shouldn't that information be in a manual someplace?

 

[Flytech99_imp]

Isn't there a difference between the RS and the EX, though?

I think the subtle performance difference between the RS and the EX model are attributed to the RS' advantage in weight and effective gearing from running 17" wheels.

 

[Guth_imp]

VLJ, if you can find a Honda press release that indicates that the timing has been altered once again then I'll admit to being surprised. Otherwise this just looks like the case of someone who was confused or simply did not take the time to check their facts when they wrote that review. They refer back to some of the same things and illustrations as the very first reviews of the bike years ago.

As to the exhaust note goes, well that's not so hard to believe.

 

[Flytech99_imp]

Are you sure? because the discussion comparing the exhaust tones, buzziness (which I don't experience on my 2013, btw), seems to call into question that there is a difference in the timing between the two US versions of the bike. One possible explanation could be that some folks have read about the RS and assumed that it was set up the same (regarding the engine) as the EX. I mean, I don't care that much since I'm not in the least bit interested in getting rid of my 2013 ABS, but it might be worth doing some research.

What cracks me up about all of this is that we should have the answer about he timing instantaneously...and yet no one seems to be able to find out the timing on each version of the bike so as to prove things one way or another. Shouldn't that information be in a manual someplace?

All of the reviews I've read mention the change in valve timing and exhaust tuning as applicable to both the EX and RS for 2017. In regards to your question, this would imply that '13 and '14 models indeed have different timing than the '17 EX here in the States.

Obviously, this proves nothing... just reiterating what the inter-webs is suggesting.

 

[PowerDubs_imp]

Are you sure? because the discussion comparing the exhaust tones, buzziness (which I don't experience on my 2013, btw), seems to call into question that there is a difference in the timing between the two US versions of the bike. One possible explanation could be that some folks have read about the RS and assumed that it was set up the same (regarding the engine) as the EX. I mean, I don't care that much since I'm not in the least bit interested in getting rid of my 2013 ABS, but it might be worth doing some research.

What cracks me up about all of this is that we should have the answer about he timing instantaneously...and yet no one seems to be able to find out the timing on each version of the bike so as to prove things one way or another. Shouldn't that information be in a manual someplace?

Cams are the same, valves are the same, displacement is the same- because all the parts are the same. I compared the parts breakdown a year ago.

Even the intake velocity stacks and the throttle bodies are the same.

There is no difference to the engine whatsoever.

The only ‘inlet’ difference is the outer horn that attaches to the air box. (Same part that gets removed for the tsr flange)

So that, different mufflers, and *maybe* different ecu tuning is all there is.

Seeing how ign timing is tied to cam timing it won’t change the sound of the engine’s character.

Hell of a placebo effect eh?

Some of the posts on here regarding the ‘17 are interesting.....





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[VLJ_imp]

Guth, do you think the obvious change in the engine note—not the exhaust volume, but the additional crunchy texture so easily heard in the comparison videos, and felt throughout the bike—can be explained solely by a shorter inlet tract and a smaller exhaust system?

That doesn't sound very plausible to me.

 

[alprider]

in german review-video (as voice info) from hondas presentation event of the 17 models in spain i could it show about this "times" from the 17 models......maybe you get it too in this 2-3 english videos from the same event that you can find of youtube....

btw
byside the tone gives the new exhaust earlier more torque in the low and middel part of rpms....and this info you find of "honda.eu" page.....(in german)

 

[Guth_imp]

The best way to know for sure would be to reference the factory service manual. These specifications appear in the manual.

 

[emptysea]

Thanks, PowerDubs... Questions from a guy who performed his last timing adjustment on a 1970 Plymouth in his Automotives class in 1978:

ecu tuning would not change the timing, correct? that basically controls the fuel mix, right? Or does the ecu control ignition as well?

The best way to know for sure would be to reference the factory service manual. These specifications appear in the manual.

Exactly my point...just much better stated.

 

[PowerDubs_imp]

Ecu does fuel and ign curves. As in advance or retard, nothing to do with staggering of the cam timing.


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[Flytech99_imp]

Are you sure? because the discussion comparing the exhaust tones, buzziness (which I don't experience on my 2013, btw), seems to call into question that there is a difference in the timing between the two US versions of the bike. One possible explanation could be that some folks have read about the RS and assumed that it was set up the same (regarding the engine) as the EX. I mean, I don't care that much since I'm not in the least bit interested in getting rid of my 2013 ABS, but it might be worth doing some research.

What cracks me up about all of this is that we should have the answer about he timing instantaneously...and yet no one seems to be able to find out the timing on each version of the bike so as to prove things one way or another. Shouldn't that information be in a manual someplace?

Cams are the same, valves are the same, displacement is the same- because all the parts are the same. I compared the parts breakdown a year ago.

Even the intake velocity stacks and the throttle bodies are the same.

There is no difference to the engine whatsoever.

The only ‘inlet’ difference is the outer horn that attaches to the air box. (Same part that gets removed for the tsr flange)

So that, different mufflers, and *maybe* different ecu tuning is all there is.

Seeing how ign timing is tied to cam timing it won’t change the sound of the engine’s character.

Hell of a placebo effect eh?

Some of the posts on here regarding the ‘17 are interesting.....





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Cams are the same, valves are the same, displacement is the same- because all the parts are the same. I compared the parts breakdown a year ago.

Even the intake velocity stacks and the throttle bodies are the same.

There is no difference to the engine whatsoever.

The only ‘inlet’ difference is the outer horn that attaches to the air box. (Same part that gets removed for the tsr flange)

So that, different mufflers, and *maybe* different ecu tuning is all there is.

Seeing how ign timing is tied to cam timing it won’t change the sound of the engine’s character.

Hell of a placebo effect eh?

Some of the posts on here regarding the ‘17 are interesting.....





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
When the '17 model was introduced, I read many articles suggesting some kind of visceral difference in engine character over previous models... some of which mentioned a change in valve timing and exhaust as the reasons. I didn't really give it much thought until this thread. I'm starting to see there is probably a placebo effect spawned by creative writing from Honda.

Here's snippet from the EU press release (which adds more detail than the U.S. version) regarding the '17's engine....

Intro: The engine breathes more easily thanks to revised inlets and smaller, lighter dual mufflers. An assist slipper clutch makes for easier lever engagement and rear wheel stability on downshifts.

Body: Proudly at the heart of the CB1100 EX is its silky-smooth DOHC engine. Linear, instantly accessible power and torque is what this motor’s all about, and plenty of it, anywhere in the rev range. Maximum power output of 66kW arrives at 7,500rpm with peak torque figure of 91Nm delivered @ 5,500rpm.

Air (via 2mm fins) and oil-cooled (via a 335mm 9-tier, front-mounted oil cooler), the engine revs to 8,500rpm and features a compression ratio of 9.5:1. Bore and stroke is set at 73.5mm x 67.2mm.

Drive for the twin camshafts is via central chain, and the valve included angle is 26.5° inlet and exhaust. Inlet valve diameter is 27mm, with a 2.5mm stem; exhaust 24mm with 2.5mm stem. A single secondary balancer shaft ensures smooth running.

PGM-FI and 32mm throttle body are fed through a revised, shortened air inlet tract and new air cleaner, and work with the pair of shorter (minus 70mm in length, 7% less in diameter and 2.4kg lighter than previous design) chrome plated exhaust mufflers to boost low and mid-rpm engine reaction.

Internally split into two expansion chambers, each muffler features dual hole-punched link pipes optimised for resonance and the generation of an evocative four-cylinder engine note. Both mufflers hug the machine tighter for improved ground clearance and the downpipes are double skinned to stop heat-induced discolouration.

An assist slipper clutch is now fitted. With die-cast aluminium cam and slipper cam it saves weight, reduces lever effort by 16% and minimizes rear wheel ‘hop’ through engine braking on rapid down changes. The six-speed gearbox, ­­with carefully matched ratios for gears 1-5 gives crisp response and acceleration, while 6th is an overdrive reducing fuel consumption and lowering engine rpm at highway speeds. Final drive is by 530 chain.

The CB1100 EX engine is EURO4 compliant.



I would think any significant changes to engine tuning, timing or output would have been mentioned along with the three "new" items mentioned above...........

 

[PowerDubs_imp]

Guth, do you think the obvious change in the engine note—not the exhaust volume, but the additional crunchy texture so easily heard in the comparison videos, and felt throughout the bike—can be explained solely by a shorter inlet tract and a smaller exhaust system?

That doesn't sound very plausible to me.

It doesn’t seem plausible that changes to the only 2 places the engine emits noise could change said noise?





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[VLJ_imp]

I'm kinda curious as to how my bike would fare on the dyno. Has anyone here dynoed their stock CB1100?

 

[Nortoon_imp]

I noticed the buzz in the pegs of my EX and always felt it was the new mufflers. The buzz is always more noticeable when the mufflers are growling, or popping when down gearing into second and first.

 

[Flytech99_imp]

Ecu does fuel and ign curves. As in advance or retard, nothing to do with staggering of the cam timing.


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Agreed! But, the articles I've seen specifically mention valve timing (not ignition timing) which would suggest a change in lift or duration. Speculating here, but mild cam lope in an inline motorcycle engine probably comes across as an amplified buzz at higher RPMs instead of low RPM burble.

Not saying it's true but there does seem to be some logic to how this "rumor" may have started....