Smooth power everywhere

[Dakota_imp]

How about a real MC test: http://www.eilenberger.net/R1100R/

Notice what he said about the results: "If there was any difference caused by the K&N it was not measureable on the dyno - the three runs are as close as I've ever seen, and the difference is less than the error of margin for the dyno runs. Conclusion: K&N is yet again not doing anything good for the bike."

Notice that NO filter was nearly identical to the OEM filter.
Here is another one from the same website: http://www.eilenberger.net/k75exhaust/index.html

Notice this result: "We also did a test of a stock air-filter with 50% of the filter area blocked by SaranWrap[tm] - it was a used stock paper filter. 50% blockage had no effect on the power the engine produced. We also ran tests of the K&N vs stock and the K&N vs no filter at all. Power remained the same. Any claims K&N make as to improving power must not apply to K bikes (the same results were found on K100 tests)."

So, half of the air filter blocked by saran wrap and still no effect on the power produced. Still think that OEM filters are all deficient?

I tell ya. I usually modify almost every vehicle I own. This bike does stuff so well and the little diff I would really get makes me really love the idea of leaving this one as is. She just seems to work well on her own. I even abandon the idea of a k&n which I've put in every bike I've owned and almost every car. I bought the filter the 1st week and just realized I'd be better off returning it than bothering. Plus it was expensive.

I do like this lil girl. As is. And for me that is extremely rare.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I didn't like the way it fit, I didn't like the lack of gaskets on either end like the OEM has, and overall, the Honda part simply looks and feels like a better engineered part to me.

So what if the K 'n N flows more air, did I really buy the CB to wring every nit of power I can out of it? Once I really thought about it, I realized no, the CB is about something else all together. Besides, it'll cruise at 90 to 100 mph for hours on end without breathing hard, so WTF more do I need?

K 'n N for sale, cheap. You take my seminar!

So what if the K 'n N flows more air, did I really buy the CB to wring every nit of power I can out of it? Once I really thought about it, I realized no, the CB is about something else all together. Besides, it'll cruise at 90 to 100 mph for hours on end without breathing hard, so WTF more do I need?

K 'n N for sale, cheap. You take my seminar!
The more important question: is the OEM filter flow deficient; not whether or not the KnN flows more? Unless someone has tested the OEM, nobody really knows and these decisions are based fully on beliefs and hope. I doubt that Honda engineers would have designed in an air filter that doesn't meet flow requirements.

K&N always flows more than stock, as a baseline. Quite a lot more as the design is different and much less restrictive. It filters not by simply having pores that are smaller than the smallest destructive dust particle (direct filtration, so to speak), but instead by a process similar to absorption, where the particles are "trapped" after being attracted to the filter media. The actual passages through the K&N filter are quite large but have many twists and turns (on a microscopic level), and combined with the sticky oil, block and trap dust.

A K&N filter can make quite a difference if the fuel map is able to accommodate it. My understanding is that generally, an EFI motorcycle or car is able to easily cope with the new filter within the range of adjustability of its system.

Out of curiosity, by what mechanism is dirt attracted to the filter media? KnN calls it "dirt attracting oil" but doesn't clearly indicate how. The only thing that I can think of is Vanderwaals force.

[Red Mist_imp]

Red Mist,

You have provided ZERO proof that the OEM filter is deficient OR that the KnN will (in this application) provide measurable power increases. You are using one case and extrapolating that to the CB1100 assuming all applications have the same restriction and they DO NOT. Show me the numbers for the HONDA CB1100; otherwise it is personal preference.

Furthermore, where is your proof that KnN meets OEM filter standards? Are you basing this off of KnN literature? As I stated above, Cummins has specifically stated on their website NOT to use KnN filters. In addition, KnN has been specifically mentioned in Dodge TSBs as a cause of engine dusting. Still think that they meet OEM standards?

Dakota

Let's get something straight here. I have never stated, ever, anywhere, that OEM filters were deficient. If that was stated, wasn't me. Secondly, I've not stated the K&N filter will, with a certainty, increase power all by itself. So you can lay off the harsh language, capital letters, and five-dollar words. I get this is an Internet forum, but no one is going to present proof of anything on the Internet. Evidence, yes; proof, never.

Here's my position: the K&N filters have been around since 1969. K&N has an excellent track record of performance for high-performance vehicles, such as racing motorcycles and cars, and high-performance street-legal vehicles. Millions of their filters have been sold for such vehicles. I've used them with outstanding results. They do in fact meet OEM specifications. K&N has seen to this for years.

That is my position. You've presented a strong case for retaining the OEM filter, which is a good approach. I've still got the stock filter in my CB1100, but have a K&N in one of my other bikes, which has had the ECU reflashed and is making a lot more power with that configuration (this setup has been dyno tested by Guhl Motors, with significant power gains).

Now I hope we are clear about where I stand and what I've been saying here, because the discussion really ought to be neighborly, especially since Guth is getting sponsors and wants us to play nice.

How about a real MC test: http://www.eilenberger.net/R1100R/

Notice what he said about the results: "If there was any difference caused by the K&N it was not measureable on the dyno - the three runs are as close as I've ever seen, and the difference is less than the error of margin for the dyno runs. Conclusion: K&N is yet again not doing anything good for the bike."

Notice that NO filter was nearly identical to the OEM filter.
Here is another one from the same website: http://www.eilenberger.net/k75exhaust/index.html

Notice this result: "We also did a test of a stock air-filter with 50% of the filter area blocked by SaranWrap[tm] - it was a used stock paper filter. 50% blockage had no effect on the power the engine produced. We also ran tests of the K&N vs stock and the K&N vs no filter at all. Power remained the same. Any claims K&N make as to improving power must not apply to K bikes (the same results were found on K100 tests)."

So, half of the air filter blocked by saran wrap and still no effect on the power produced. Still think that OEM filters are all deficient?

I tell ya. I usually modify almost every vehicle I own. This bike does stuff so well and the little diff I would really get makes me really love the idea of leaving this one as is. She just seems to work well on her own. I even abandon the idea of a k&n which I've put in every bike I've owned and almost every car. I bought the filter the 1st week and just realized I'd be better off returning it than bothering. Plus it was expensive.

I do like this lil girl. As is. And for me that is extremely rare.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I didn't like the way it fit, I didn't like the lack of gaskets on either end like the OEM has, and overall, the Honda part simply looks and feels like a better engineered part to me.

So what if the K 'n N flows more air, did I really buy the CB to wring every nit of power I can out of it? Once I really thought about it, I realized no, the CB is about something else all together. Besides, it'll cruise at 90 to 100 mph for hours on end without breathing hard, so WTF more do I need?

K 'n N for sale, cheap. You take my seminar!

So what if the K 'n N flows more air, did I really buy the CB to wring every nit of power I can out of it? Once I really thought about it, I realized no, the CB is about something else all together. Besides, it'll cruise at 90 to 100 mph for hours on end without breathing hard, so WTF more do I need?

K 'n N for sale, cheap. You take my seminar!
The more important question: is the OEM filter flow deficient; not whether or not the KnN flows more? Unless someone has tested the OEM, nobody really knows and these decisions are based fully on beliefs and hope. I doubt that Honda engineers would have designed in an air filter that doesn't meet flow requirements.

K&N always flows more than stock, as a baseline. Quite a lot more as the design is different and much less restrictive. It filters not by simply having pores that are smaller than the smallest destructive dust particle (direct filtration, so to speak), but instead by a process similar to absorption, where the particles are "trapped" after being attracted to the filter media. The actual passages through the K&N filter are quite large but have many twists and turns (on a microscopic level), and combined with the sticky oil, block and trap dust.

A K&N filter can make quite a difference if the fuel map is able to accommodate it. My understanding is that generally, an EFI motorcycle or car is able to easily cope with the new filter within the range of adjustability of its system.

Out of curiosity, by what mechanism is dirt attracted to the filter media? KnN calls it "dirt attracting oil" but doesn't clearly indicate how. The only thing that I can think of is Vanderwaals force.

Don Eilenberger's website; I remember it well. Surprised to see all that stuff still posted, that's ancient by Internet standards!

To address your interest in the dyno run Don posted, as I mentioned in my previous post, there's no guarantee that a K&N will add power to every engine. The R1100R (I had one) is an engine tuned for low-end and midrange, not top end. It has a low compression ratio of 10.3:1, and it's a twin, so it cannot be revved particularly high, meaning it's not an efficient pump at high rpm. Cam and ignition timing are critical here. It's not a good candidate for an impressive dyno run with a simple air filter change.

Compare that to an engine with a 12:1 or 13:1 compression ratio, tuned for peak power at high rpm. There is where your high-flow air filter is going to do the most good. I did post a dyno chart for the Sonic Turbo that showed a big gain of 7 horsepower; if that's being dismissed as evidence, one could as easily dismiss anything posted, and then what is the point of this thread or discussion?

With respect to the way the K&N filters work, it's not by what we'd call "membrane" filtration, which is like pouring sand through a sieve and any particle larger than the holes in the sieve just won't get through.

The particles in air we want to filter are charged, that is, they carry an electrical charge which causes them to be attracted to the filter media. In water filtration, we add what we call "polymers" to the water to be filtered. Depending on the quality of the water, the polymers can add either a positive or negative charge to microscopic particles in the water, which causes them to come together and form larger particles, which can then be more easily filtered. The process with the K&N oil/cotton filter is much simpler but it's the same basic physical process. Some of these microscopic particles are attracted to the filter media because of the nature of their electrical charge; some are simply "caught" in labyrinthine pathway through the filter media on the oil, which -- to a small particle like that -- is like flypaper. It's very difficult for particles to get through such a filter because of the extremely circuitous path they have to take, and the tacky oil they encounter. However, the air molecules pass through the filter quite easily and are virtually unrestricted.

A paper filter works like a sieve; the pores in the filter are only so large, and it has to physically block the dust particles, most of which are simply too large to pass through. This type of filter, by its design, is much more restrictive than the oil/cotton design of the K&N. These are also prone to clogging more quickly since the dust simply builds up and forms a barrier. This is like a paper vacuum cleaner filter.

Will a K&N filter help the CB1100, or any particular vehicle, make more power? I can't say, without a before/after dyno test. Have K&N filters added power to vehicles with high-performance engines that can benefit from the potential additional airflow? Yes, they've been doing so by the thousands, with the dyno runs to show it.

I'm not a filter salesperson, and it should be clear, I have no dog in this hunt, but the history of K&N filters in these kinds of vehicles is well-established.

[Dakota_imp]

Red Mist,

The point that I have been trying to make all along was that nobody knows if the KnN actually flowed more or not. I still dispute that they meet OEM standards due to the explicit statements on OEM websites and TSBs. Too late for a beer; hoping the NyQuil kicks in soon.

Dakota

[Red Mist_imp]

Red Mist,

The point that I have been trying to make all along was that nobody knows if the KnN actually flowed more or not. I still dispute that they meet OEM standards due to the explicit statements on OEM websites and TSBs. Too late for a beer; hoping the NyQuil kicks in soon.

Dakota

I completely agree; without an actual dyno run -- and maybe even ignition and fueling changes -- it might not make any difference at all. In that case, stock is best. K&N state on its website that its filters for passenger vehicle meet all OEM standards, so I'm going with that. They even have a legal team that will go to bat for any customer who gets the runaround from a vehicle maker who refuses to warranty a claim.

http://www.knfilters.com/warranty.htm

BTW, apparently there is an ECU reflash available now for the CB1100, so there may also be some research done on what an air filter and/or pipe change will do when the ignition timing and fueling can be adjusted to take advantage.

I'll pass on the Nyquil, but thanks for the offer!

[CBXBob_imp]

I HAVE USED K&N filters in the past. By them selves in an otherwise stock engine I don't think there is any gain except perceived seat of the pants due to increased noise. On my FORMER 1250 Bandit along with , a new can and TFI module, there was a significant gain. BUT NEVER tried the K&N filter only.(Holeshot.COM) Coupled with other mods at Higher RPM's and flows,I think there would be a small but measurable advantage. One of my vehicles( FORD RANGER ? ) specifically stated not to use K&N TYPE, my words, forgot exact verbiage, Filters.