Wanderer or Route Rider ...which type are you?

[the Ferret]

In my experience, any time you ride with someone, or multiple someones, it requires compromises by all parties involved. The only way it couldn't is if you were riding with your clone.

Sounds like you are better off riding solo rotor.

 

[rotor]

In my experience, any time you ride with someone, or multiple someones, it requires compromises by all parties involved. The only way it couldn't is if you were riding with your clone.

Sounds like you are better off riding solo rotor.

Could be. But meeting someone half-way is a powerfull concept.

 

[emptysea]

Our esteemed moderators can feel free to move this to its own topic, but I'm not sure that a discussion about group riding is that far off-topic for this thread, so I will post here.

I had never heard the expression "pack riding" in this context before Rotor's comments. If he is using the following definitions, as procured from a motorcycle safety website (link below), then at least I understand some of his concerns.

Pack: a number of motorcyclists who ride together, generally without maintaining fixed positions or distances between bikes. Packs are occasionally seen with 20-50 motorcyclists in a single formation.

Group: a small number of motorcyclists who ride together maintaining a generally fixed distance between bikes and maintaining fixed positions within the formation (usually no more than six per group).


Here's what MSF has to say about group riding.
https://www.msf-usa.org/downloads/Group_Ride.pdf

Here's what an insurance company has to say about group riding.
https://www.esurance.com/info/motorcycle/8-rules-for-group-motorcycle-riding

Here's the safety website from which I got the above definitions.
Motorcycle Tips and Techniques

There are other sites and sources of information, but none of them said that group riding was inherently more dangerous than solo riding and some indicate that group riding is actually safer. It occurred to me as I read over some of the tips and rules for a safe group ride that they mostly are designed to prevent a "group" from becoming a "pack".

Incidentally, many of the characteristics that would define a "pack" are already illegal in most, if not all, states in the US -- side by side riding, passing within the same lane as another rider, and following to closely to name just a few.

I have ridden with groups that wander and groups that plan and had fun and safe rides with both. I have ridden in a "group" that devolved into a "pack" and I will not ride with those folks again...it was neither safe nor fun.

And to tie this all back to Rotor's original question, I echo TheFerret's comment that Rotor should probably ride solo. A ride leader has a responsibility to know where his riders are at any given point and some of the greatest places to ride are also the least conducive to electronic communication. I don't love the idea of hanging out in a hotel lobby wondering if one of my riders decided to turn around and go home or if he's laying in a ditch someplace. If I was Rotor's friend, I would indeed be relieved to know that I don't have that responsibility any more.

 

[jrns_imp]

Yup. Riding in proper staggered formation is pretty much standard practice on every ride I've gone on. Riding side by side in a big square however is a different story. There was a crash here last long weekend that sent 15 riders to the hospital -- they were riding like this, front rider clipped a motor home trying to pass, took rest of the group down since no room to maneuver.

I'm a little late seeing this Kmoney, but I remember this from the news. Terrible accident. I think it was in Quebec, and one of the bikers died at the scene...

 

[kmoney_imp]

Yup. Riding in proper staggered formation is pretty much standard practice on every ride I've gone on. Riding side by side in a big square however is a different story. There was a crash here last long weekend that sent 15 riders to the hospital -- they were riding like this, front rider clipped a motor home trying to pass, took rest of the group down since no room to maneuver.

I'm a little late seeing this Kmoney, but I remember this from the news. Terrible accident. I think it was in Quebec, and one of the bikers died at the scene...

I'm a little late seeing this Kmonkey, but I remember this from the news. Terrible accident. I think it was in Quebec, and one of the bikers died at the scene... That's the one. Horrible, but a teachable moment for why not to ride like this and why to pass one at a time.

 

[rotor]

Our esteemed moderators can feel free to move this to its own topic, but I'm not sure that a discussion about group riding is that far off-topic for this thread, so I will post here.

I had never heard the expression "pack riding" in this context before Rotor's comments. If he is using the following definitions, as procured from a motorcycle safety website (link below), then at least I understand some of his concerns.

Pack: a number of motorcyclists who ride together, generally without maintaining fixed positions or distances between bikes. Packs are occasionally seen with 20-50 motorcyclists in a single formation.

Group: a small number of motorcyclists who ride together maintaining a generally fixed distance between bikes and maintaining fixed positions within the formation (usually no more than six per group).


Here's what MSF has to say about group riding.
https://www.msf-usa.org/downloads/Group_Ride.pdf

Here's what an insurance company has to say about group riding.
https://www.esurance.com/info/motorcycle/8-rules-for-group-motorcycle-riding

Here's the safety website from which I got the above definitions.
Motorcycle Tips and Techniques

There are other sites and sources of information, but none of them said that group riding was inherently more dangerous than solo riding and some indicate that group riding is actually safer. It occurred to me as I read over some of the tips and rules for a safe group ride that they mostly are designed to prevent a "group" from becoming a "pack".

Incidentally, many of the characteristics that would define a "pack" are already illegal in most, if not all, states in the US -- side by side riding, passing within the same lane as another rider, and following to closely to name just a few.

I have ridden with groups that wander and groups that plan and had fun and safe rides with both. I have ridden in a "group" that devolved into a "pack" and I will not ride with those folks again...it was neither safe nor fun.

And to tie this all back to Rotor's original question, I echo TheFerret's comment that Rotor should probably ride solo. A ride leader has a responsibility to know where his riders are at any given point and some of the greatest places to ride are also the least conducive to electronic communication. I don't love the idea of hanging out in a hotel lobby wondering if one of my riders decided to turn around and go home or if he's laying in a ditch someplace. If I was Rotor's friend, I would indeed be relieved to know that I don't have that responsibility any more.

Canadian Province of Alberta motorcycle written test preparation booklet specifies a "two second separation" rule for motorcycles riding in a formation. At 50 mph, this is almost half a football field between the riders. Nobody, myself included, would call this "pack riding". I am talking about the groups riding together, in whatever geometry, where one rider follows another with a separation of two or three vehicle lengths.

 

[Ulvetanna_imp]

All my trips so far were solo wanderings. This summer I did 4.5 K kms loop with a friend (nice fellow!) who planned the trip day by day, booked accommodations, decided on stops for three meals a day...

Now my problem is how to tell him we will no more ride together without offending him. Any suggestions?

I'm with you; I reached that point many years ago. Nearly all the people I have ridden with over the years, with very few exceptions, ride competitively, erratically, unpredictably, or irresponsibly. Weekend Warriors and Keystone Cops, for the most part.

I don't want no part of that stuff now.

There was one guy I rode with for over 20 years who was an exception. Completely reliable, skills nearly identical to mine, and I'll wager I rode 200,000 miles with this man, with not a single mishap. We used to tail chase all over the place and nothing but good times.

Unfortunately he started experiencing some family, financial, and health issues for a time and it affected his riding, so I had to stop riding with him, too.

The last 50,000+ miles of my riding (about 3 1/2 years) have been alone by choice and I like it that way. The only group rides I do are track days.

I enjoy being self-reliant. If I screw up, it's on me and me alone, which is why I am extremely meticulous about bike preparation, safety, training, and setup, which includes attitude and health. There will be no one there to scrape me up. If I am off even a little, I don't ride.

Most people like to socialize and they wonder what's wrong with a guy who prefers to be a "lone wolf"; me, I really appreciate those moments far from home in the further reaches of nature where I encounter another loner and we exchange a brief but knowing wave and then disappear in one another's mirrors. 'Nuff said.

 

[the Ferret]

All my trips so far were solo wanderings. This summer I did 4.5 K kms loop with a friend (nice fellow!) who planned the trip day by day, booked accommodations, decided on stops for three meals a day...

Now my problem is how to tell him we will no more ride together without offending him. Any suggestions?

I'm with you; I reached that point many years ago. Nearly all the people I have ridden with over the years, with very few exceptions, ride competitively, erratically, unpredictably, or irresponsibly. Weekend Warriors and Keystone Cops, for the most part.

I don't want no part of that stuff now.

There was one guy I rode with for over 20 years who was an exception. Completely reliable, skills nearly identical to mine, and I'll wager I rode 200,000 miles with this man, with not a single mishap. We used to tail chase all over the place and nothing but good times.

Unfortunately he started experiencing some family, financial, and health issues for a time and it affected his riding, so I had to stop riding with him, too.

The last 50,000+ miles of my riding (about 3 1/2 years) have been alone by choice and I like it that way. The only group rides I do are track days.

I enjoy being self-reliant. If I screw up, it's on me and me alone, which is why I am extremely meticulous about bike preparation, safety, training, and setup, which includes attitude and health. There will be no one there to scrape me up. If I am off even a little, I don't ride.

Most people like to socialize and they wonder what's wrong with a guy who prefers to be a "lone wolf"; me, I really appreciate those moments far from home in the further reaches of nature where I encounter another loner and we exchange a brief but knowing wave and then disappear in one another's mirrors. 'Nuff said.

Ahh Ulve....Yet you visit motorcycle forums everyday to communicate with others, and to seek validation for your ideas, methods and riding style. Methinks you are not the "lone wolf" you think you are. (and there's nothing wrong with that)

Most Harley riders claim to be "Lone Wolves" even when riding in a pack of 300. It's natural to seek the company of others.

 

[Inhouse Bob]

But I have to respect someone who enjoys their own company. I get pretty tired of myself after a couple of hours :biker:

 

[Django]

Sometimes I enjoy riding and exploring alone. However, having dinner alone is boring.

 

[Ulvetanna_imp]

All my trips so far were solo wanderings. This summer I did 4.5 K kms loop with a friend (nice fellow!) who planned the trip day by day, booked accommodations, decided on stops for three meals a day...

Now my problem is how to tell him we will no more ride together without offending him. Any suggestions?

I'm with you; I reached that point many years ago. Nearly all the people I have ridden with over the years, with very few exceptions, ride competitively, erratically, unpredictably, or irresponsibly. Weekend Warriors and Keystone Cops, for the most part.

I don't want no part of that stuff now.

There was one guy I rode with for over 20 years who was an exception. Completely reliable, skills nearly identical to mine, and I'll wager I rode 200,000 miles with this man, with not a single mishap. We used to tail chase all over the place and nothing but good times.

Unfortunately he started experiencing some family, financial, and health issues for a time and it affected his riding, so I had to stop riding with him, too.

The last 50,000+ miles of my riding (about 3 1/2 years) have been alone by choice and I like it that way. The only group rides I do are track days.

I enjoy being self-reliant. If I screw up, it's on me and me alone, which is why I am extremely meticulous about bike preparation, safety, training, and setup, which includes attitude and health. There will be no one there to scrape me up. If I am off even a little, I don't ride.

Most people like to socialize and they wonder what's wrong with a guy who prefers to be a "lone wolf"; me, I really appreciate those moments far from home in the further reaches of nature where I encounter another loner and we exchange a brief but knowing wave and then disappear in one another's mirrors. 'Nuff said.

Ahh Ulve....Yet you visit motorcycle forums everyday to communicate with others, and to seek validation for your ideas, methods and riding style. Methinks you are not the "lone wolf" you think you are. (and there's nothing wrong with that)

Most Harley riders claim to be "Lone Wolves" even when riding in a pack of 300. It's natural to seek the company of others.

Ahh Ulve....Yet you visit motorcycle forums everyday to communicate with others, and to seek validation for your ideas, methods and riding style. Methinks you are not the "lone wolf" you think you are. (and there's nothing wrong with that)

Most Harley riders claim to be "Lone Wolves" even when riding in a pack of 300. It's natural to seek the company of others. I said I liked to ride alone, I didn't claim to be an ascetic.

I like people, but generally from a distance or under controlled circumstances, such as in business relationships. People need one other, but not for validation. That's a psychological phenomenon, very similar to peer pressure. It's very powerful in youth but in some people, like me, it begins to diminish with age and life experience.

 

[Frulk_imp]

Wow. Another high quality thread/discussion with polite, insightful responses.

Prior to me coming here I was checking a thread on another site to see how it was going. Was already deleted by the moderator because the subject matter drove members over the edge in their responses and well, the thread being deleted says it all.

I voted Wanderer. I have a trip coming up. I have a general idea of how I'm going to ride. It's approx. 800 miles round trip. Undecided if I'm going clockwise or counterclockwise and I'm 2 days out from launch. That's also how my last 1200 mile trip went.

I LIKE riding alone. It frees me of ALL responsibility such as scheduled gas/food stops/set miles or target miles/destination per day and so forth. I also like CAMPING off the bike, which here out west gives me even MORE freedom because of all the public-lands. Starting to get dark? No problem just start looking for a quiet place off the side of the road.

I don't GROUP ride. Don't like it for any number of reasons. I Have the opportunity to participate in many group rides during the season. Never have gone on one.

I do ride with a small CREW. 3 friends who have a long history of riding. Two who between them have close to 70 years of riding experience and 40+ different bikes under them. In the past two years all four of us have been on the road together twice. most of the time we number 2-3. As of this year I've been spending time with my daughter riding, usually with one of the crew so no more than 3 of us out and about. mostly on back roads with little traffic on the weekends.

On a side note, Ulvetanna wrote " People need one another, but not for validation. That's a psychological phenomenon, very similar to peer pressure." One of my riding buddies is a psychiatrist with 30 years in the business. Occasionally he will speak of something he sees a lot of in his profession, that of people letting others opinions and certain possessions of theirs define (validate if you will) them. On occasions when he see's a rider on a certain brand, with the bikes brand name or initials on the riders boots, jeans, T-shirt, head scarf, jacket, sunglasses, wallet, phone cover etc. he will remark "that boy has been defined".

 

[flynrider]

That sounds a lot like me, Frulk. I have a small group of friends that I ride with occasionally. On a few occasions we've even done some major road trips. But the majority of the time I ride by myself. They're mostly route riders and wandering makes them nervous I don't hold it against them.

Over the decades I've ridden and camped alone over much of the western U.S. and Canada and I love it. Rather than it being a solitary, anti-social experience, I find that when I'm riding alone I meet all kinds of interesting people that I probably wouldn't meet when riding in a group. Just last year I was sitting around a campfire with a guy on a riding vacation from Germany, a retired couple on a Gold Wing and a pair of hilarious kids from Kentucky that had just graduated from high school and were riding a pair of beat up old Yamahas across the country just for fun. That hardly ever happens when I'm on a group ride.

 

[the Ferret]

am I am route rider? lol

Routes for next months Men's Fall Trip in SE Ohio/WV

each days route is a different color, basing out of Marietta, Ohio

 

[emptysea]

Looks like you're a wandering route rider

 

[Rebel73_imp]

As a member of a club, it's obvious that I enjoy riding in groups. The guys I ride with are all sensible and we don't do any stupid crap. We always ride staggered with a good following distance. I enjoy the camaraderie and riding down the road with a bunch of like-minded individuals is an awesome feeling. Riding alone is great, too. To each his own.

 

[the Ferret]

Lol yes but does your group run routes or just wander willy nilly?

 

[curlyjoe]

I'm generally a wanderer but head west or northwest of Boston. I will study google maps and look for roads I haven't explored yet but it may take me a while to get there since I don't plan specific routes. I avoid traffic areas and towns with 2 or more stoplights, lol.

My preference is to ride alone so I can ride at my own pace, stop whenever I want to take a break or take a different rout on a whim. I've ridden at a safe distance behind groups (3+ riders and usually Harleys) and most of the time I would judge their riding behavior as unsafe IMO because they are clustered too close together.

I'm not an outgoing person but if I'm approached by another rider on one of my frequent stops for coffee or rest I will engage in conversation.

 

[Rebel73_imp]

Lol yes but does your group run routes or just wander willy nilly?

We usually have planned out routes - just easier and safer that way.

 

[use2b_imp]

I generally plan the routes I will take and know my destination however i do sometimes change course to visit friends or stop in locations where i generally never drive there on purpose.
right now the big plan is a vacation ride to Barber vintage bike week next month.
my brother is an official there so we will get a free pass and will stay at his house and my mom's plus visit more family in the hills of north Alabama.
should be fun.