tps evaluating for ii issues

[SportsterDoc]

Dave
I prefer top tier fuel, but it is not available on many of my remote rides.
Only 87 octane used. First street bike to use regular in a l o n g time.
We can have a discussion on regular versus premium, later.
For now, basically, premium/high octane no longer has better cleaning additives than regular
and premium fuel may actually contain less energy per unit volume than regular. Premium does have the potential for producing more power, if timing can be advanced (more burn time) to take advantage of the higher octane.

If you had water, it goes to the bottom of the tank as H2O is more dense than gasoline; and if it will run, it should burn off. The one time it happened to daughter 3#, her 92 Nissan Sentra barely made it home (from west Flagstaff to east Flagstaff, AZ) and I pumped out several gallons of water/gasoline.

On my 2016 Moto Guzzi V7II, one time I fueled at an ARCO (top tier) near home and as I pulled out of the station, it stumbled once (first thought was water, but this is a well trafficked station). I gave it throttle and it then ran fine.

I will pay the price to fuel at a more trafficked station than one with the cheapest price...reasoning that there is less chance of water in the fuel.

Maybe you had a some water, but doubt that is/was the issue.

On the Sportster forum, my focus was primarily on electrical, secondary on carb issues. I mention this so that you will understand that I do not easily dismiss electrical issues.

My concern remains a vacuum loss issue and a stuck/sticking purge valve is now at the top of my list. I do not want to sidetrack Max's tests with the smaller vacuum hoses, but I am very curious to know if blocking the vacuum hose from the purge valve to the throttle body assembly makes a difference. This test should be done on a fully warmed up engine.

I have little info on Honda's M/C system on the CB1100, but what I have been able to research indicates generally that

a. engine must be at operating temp

b. engine must be faster than idle speed

...for the ECM to operate the evap purge valve

You can google "purge valve stuck open for symptoms".

Here are a couple links:

Purge valve, how it works, symptoms, problems, testing

5 Signs of a Bad Vapor Canister Purge Valve (& Replacement Cost)

The main point is that if a purge valve is stuck open, at idle, the engine runs rough/low idle. A small vacuum leak will likely cause a high idle. This could be a crack in a hose or fitting...or maybe the purge valve almost closed.

The CB1100 is electrical. Electric open, spring close. What I do not know is if the purge solenoid is variable position, in other words, is it 100% open/closed or does it partially open depending on ECM regulated voltage? Either way, if it is open at idle, there is a problem.

The basics, as best as I understand, are:
1. Charcoal canister absorbs fumes from fuel tank vent
2. Canister has a one way check valve to allow fresh air to enter canister when fumes are sucked out.
3. When purge valve operates, manifold vacuum sucks fumes from canister

This has been a week of aggravating distractions. In the emails with Max, Peter and Popgun, I have not been providing much, if any, input. I think, but not sure, that Max's tests are to prove out proper IACV operation. It seems well worth doing, but my thinking is to first prove or dismiss purge valve issues.

Hope to be back to regular posting by the end of next week. Will be off the grid Mon-Wed, but can see emails on wife's smart phone** at our Arizona ranch. Not a strong enough signal to log onto the Sportster forum and I have not tried on this forum.

**I use a flip phone, which I intended to modify with a .357 when I retired, but wife forbids that.

 

[peterbaron]

Dave
I prefer top tier fuel, but it is not available on many of my remote rides.
Only 87 octane used. First street bike to use regular in a l o n g time.
We can have a discussion on regular versus premium, later.
For now, basically, premium/high octane no longer has better cleaning additives than regular
and premium fuel may actually contain less energy per unit volume than regular. Premium does have the potential for producing more power, if timing can be advanced (more burn time) to take advantage of the higher octane.

If you had water, it goes to the bottom of the tank as H2O is more dense than gasoline; and if it will run, it should burn off. The one time it happened to daughter 3#, her 92 Nissan Sentra barely made it home (from west Flagstaff to east Flagstaff, AZ) and I pumped out several gallons of water/gasoline.

On my 2016 Moto Guzzi V7II, one time I fueled at an ARCO (top tier) near home and as I pulled out of the station, it stumbled once (first thought was water, but this is a well trafficked station). I gave it throttle and it then ran fine.

I will pay the price to fuel at a more trafficked station than one with the cheapest price...reasoning that there is less chance of water in the fuel.

Maybe you had a some water, but doubt that is/was the issue.

On the Sportster forum, my focus was primarily on electrical, secondary on carb issues. I mention this so that you will understand that I do not easily dismiss electrical issues.

My concern remains a vacuum loss issue and a stuck/sticking purge valve is now at the top of my list. I do not want to sidetrack Max's tests with the smaller vacuum hoses, but I am very curious to know if blocking the vacuum hose from the purge valve to the throttle body assembly makes a difference. This test should be done on a fully warmed up engine.

I have little info on Honda's M/C system on the CB1100, but what I have been able to research indicates generally that

a. engine must be at operating temp

b. engine must be faster than idle speed

...for the ECM to operate the evap purge valve

You can google "purge valve stuck open for symptoms".

Here are a couple links:

Purge valve, how it works, symptoms, problems, testing

5 Signs of a Bad Vapor Canister Purge Valve (& Replacement Cost)

The main point is that if a purge valve is stuck open, at idle, the engine runs rough/low idle. A small vacuum leak will likely cause a high idle. This could be a crack in a hose or fitting...or maybe the purge valve almost closed.

The CB1100 is electrical. Electric open, spring close. What I do not know is if the purge solenoid is variable position, in other words, is it 100% open/closed or does it partially open depending on ECM regulated voltage? Either way, if it is open at idle, there is a problem.

The basics, as best as I understand, are:
1. Charcoal canister absorbs fumes from fuel tank vent
2. Canister has a one way check valve to allow fresh air to enter canister when fumes are sucked out.
3. When purge valve operates, manifold vacuum sucks fumes from canister

This has been a week of aggravating distractions. In the emails with Max, Peter and Popgun, I have not been providing much, if any, input. I think, but not sure, that Max's tests are to prove out proper IACV operation. It seems well worth doing, but my thinking is to first prove or dismiss purge valve issues.

Hope to be back to regular posting by the end of next week. Will be off the grid Mon-Wed, but can see emails on wife's smart phone** at our Arizona ranch. Not a strong enough signal to log onto the Sportster forum and I have not tried on this forum.

**I use a flip phone, which I intended to modify with a .357 when I retired, but wife forbids that.

PCSV general info:
PCSV is a duty cycle solenoid, normally closed, operated by ECM ground. Depending on manufacture, it has 25-35 Ohms resistance at 20*C. It opens and closes about 70 times within a minute when idling or higher, within engine operating temperature, and should never be in stuck open position = problems and DTC will be set for 100%. Will not operate at WOTh.

pb

 

[max]

Water in the fuel is a distinct possibility, it does not quite fit the fault m.o. but certainly worth draining.
my 2010 tank had at least one baffle about in the middle and the fuel gauge float on the left hand side, it may be hard to get to the lowest point in the tank where the water hides and when water gets in it is trapped under the fuel so it can not evaporate out but seems to produce rust anyway.
Interesting to see if you do find water or some other sediment.

max

 

[dave]

Update: Took the CB for a short (10 mile) ride Saturday morning around town. Made one stop, where I turned the engine off, and stopped probably 12+ times at stop lights. Bike ran perfectly. I am not saying the gas was the root cause of the idle problem - yet, and will report back. I'm hoping more of you guys will reply with your comments concerning the gas potentially causing the low idle issue.

 

[Lord Popgun]

Max and Sportster doc will answer this, but I can say I have seen it a lot on outboards at my friends shop (I work there after my real job in the Summer).

FYI, I’m doing servo valve tests today. But I’ll report the results to the crew and let them reply. 1st test complete Max!

I will say Dave, considering we don’t have engineering data, we are figuring out a lot about operation of our systems.

 

[dave]

Max and Sportster doc will answer this, but I can say I have seen it a lot on outboards at my friends shop (I work there after my real job in the Summer).

FYI, I’m doing servo valve tests today. But I’ll report the results to the crew and let them reply. 1st test complete Max!

I will say Dave, considering we don’t have engineering data, we are figuring out a lot about operation of our systems.

Hi popgun. Thank you very much for all your support. Can you please be more specific concerning the outboards at your friend's shop? Are other people reporting that switching gasoline brands has caused similar problems in their bikes?

Thanks again popgun.

 

[peterbaron]

PCSV general info:
PCSV is a duty cycle solenoid, normally closed, operated by ECM ground. Depending on manufacture, it has 25-35 Ohms resistance at 20*C. It opens and closes about 70 times within a minute when idling or higher, within engine operating temperature, and should never be in stuck open position = problems and DTC will be set for 100%. Will not operate at WOTh.

pb

Above advanced OBD II version caused some confusion among members.

Here is CB1100 version, which does not follow OBD II protocol::

PCSV is a duty cycle solenoid, normally closed, operated by ECM ground with 33 Ohms resistance at 20*C. It opens and closes multiple times within a minute when idling or higher, and should never be in stuck open position. Shop manual does not provide DTC for PCSV malfunctions

Sorry for this confusion = my bad
pb

 

[dave]

Update: Low idle / stalling condition is back, so changing back to Chevron fuel did not resolve the problem. 3 miles from my house yesterday the low idle returned, and about 1 mile later the engine stalled as I pulled into a shopping center. My wife shot a video that shows the bike stalling once, and after restarting dropping to 600 - 700 RPM. The USB ports on my computer are not working so I cannot upload anything, but I just emailed a shortened video to doc - maybe he can upload it?

After the bike sat for 20 minutes I restarted it and it ran perfectly the next 20 miles - about 5 miles of in-town with stop lights, and then 15 miles of freeway.

I'll try removing the EVAP hoses next.

 

[Lord Popgun]

Dave,

In the outboards I’ve seen with water in the fuel, and it happens to people ALL the time, one or more carbs don’t work and thus idle drops or engine stalls. My friend doesn’t do too many FI engines as he doesn’t have diagnostic tools computer testing or cleaning injectors.

If water is in the fuel for any length of time then it gunks up carbs or can mess up fuel injectors. I don’t know exactly how the injectors fail, he sends them to a dealer for that. That water, oil (2-stroke), fuel and alcohol really turns into a mess in an outboard carb. And on 4-stroke carbs can be bad enough to require replacement due to the extremely small ports they have. Even no water can mess them up if old fuel is left in them for a time.

 

[Houtman_imp]

From early November onwards till the end of march I use the Blue Stabil (marine grade ) in my bikes.
I try to use the bikes at least once a month during the winter but you never know when the next ride is on a particular bike and try to play safe.

 

[Lord Popgun]

I use the same stuff my bikes too. And both Honda generators I have.

 

[dave]

Dave,

In the outboards I’ve seen with water in the fuel, and it happens to people ALL the time, one or more carbs don’t work and thus idle drops or engine stalls. My friend doesn’t do too many FI engines as he doesn’t have diagnostic tools computer testing or cleaning injectors.

If water is in the fuel for any length of time then it gunks up carbs or can mess up fuel injectors. I don’t know exactly how the injectors fail, he sends them to a dealer for that. That water, oil (2-stroke), fuel and alcohol really turns into a mess in an outboard carb. And on 4-stroke carbs can be bad enough to require replacement due to the extremely small ports they have. Even no water can mess them up if old fuel is left in them for a time.

Thank you popgun.

If anyone would like to see the video of my bike at low idle and stalling, just PM me your email address and I will fwd it to you. I am unable to upload anything on my computer right now. Where has Max been? I haven't seen a post from him in several days now!

 

[Lord Popgun]

He’s been waiting for you to do a hose experiment. I did some tests and sent the data to the ‘team’ and he is waiting for you.

 

[dave]

He’s been waiting for you to do a hose experiment. I did some tests and sent the data to the ‘team’ and he is waiting for you.

Thank you popgun - I will do this ASAP. Been working 11 hour days.

 

[max]

He’s been waiting for you to do a hose experiment. I did some tests and sent the data to the ‘team’ and he is waiting for you.

Thank you popgun - I will do this ASAP. Been working 11 hour days.

Thank you popgun - I will do this ASAP. Been working 11 hour days.
Thanks popgun and congrats on the instrument cluster case ( not leaving Cormanus out either, nice job ).

Interim update; the tps has mostly been dis proven pending a longer test by Dave at a later date, so now we move on to the iacv, the remaining but more difficult to access part on the throttle body and we have developed some tests to check for proper operation prior to changing the thing altogether.

Take your time Dave, better a good test than a quick one, the team is watching.

max

 

[Cormanus]

Place is beginning to feel like an episode of Sherlock.

 

[dave]

Hi team, new update: Rode the bike about 10 miles on city streets last night. The low idle condition is now rearing its ugly head more often, and stalling is now becoming more common. The bike initially started normally, and had the normal cold / high idle condition as a normally running CB1100 should have. As soon as the engine warmed up and the cold / high idle returned to a normal, 1,050 RPM idle (approximately 2 miles of riding) the low idle condition began, (this was at the third or fourth stoplight). At the third stoplight after the low idle condition began (700 RPM, slow return to 1.050 RPM) the engine stalled. I restarted it, and it stalled again. I restarted it again, and gently revved the engine (up to 3,000 RPM) several times to keep it running, and then let it return to idle, which was 700 RPM. The RPM slowly returned to 1,050 by itself, and then almost as if someone flipped a switch, it returned to 700 RPM by itself. At this time the light changed and I rode off. I reached my destination about ½ miles later without stopping and turned the engine off. I restarted it approximately a half hour later, rode it another 5 miles before turning it off again, and it ran fine. I restarted it approximately 1 ½ hours later and rode home, deliberately riding a route with more stops, and it ran fine all the way home.

I am planning to perform the EVAP hose disconnect test this weekend. My thoughts are to disconnect the two outer tubes as shown by MAX, and connecting two blocked-off tubes to the throttle body nipples in their place and taking the bike for a ride. What do you think of this Max?

 

[max]

This is interesting;
>> which was 700 RPM. The RPM slowly returned to 1,050 by itself, and then almost as if someone flipped a switch, it returned to 700 RPM by itself.<<

I can understand the slow return to 1050 idle but i have a hard time explaining the instant drop to 700 instantly, we know the bike wants a warm idle of 1050, so if it is in the happy spot why would it change it's mind? you are not running it on pure vodka and it's just drunk is it?:beerchug:

The test with the vacuum hoses is meant to test if the iacv is working as it should, what you are in fact doing is creating a vacuum leak and we want to know if the iacv is able to adjust back to 1050 if the skinny hoses are both disconnected.

this should be done with the engine warmed up and idling nornally at 1050 on the side stand.
1 pull off both hoses and watch the rpm's, there should be a slight change quickly followed by a corrective action by the iacv.
2 put both hoses back and see if the rpm changes again.

Second test should be done in the same 2 steps except this time with the low idle ( 700 ) in progress.

The theory is that in the low idle the iacv is closed too much and not enough air is presented to the engine, by pulling both hoses off you present more air to the engine and assist in raising the rpm.

Just follow pictures 1 and 2 , picture 3 is just to show the hose partially pulled off, but during the test all 4 openings should be allowed to suck in air

Don't do this; >>and connecting two blocked-off tubes to the throttle body nipples in their place and taking the bike for a ride.<<

cheers max

 

[dave]

you are not running it on pure vodka and it's just drunk is it?:beerchug:

I wish it was this easy!


this should be done with the engine warmed up and idling nornally at 1050 on the side stand.

1 pull off both hoses and watch the rpm's, there should be a slight change quickly followed by a corrective action by the iacv.
2 put both hoses back and see if the rpm changes again.

Second test should be done in the same 2 steps except this time with the low idle ( 700 ) in progress.

Thank you Max. I will perform this test Saturday. Hopefully I can perform it in both the normal idle (1,050 RPM) mode, and when it starts experiencing the low RPM idle. I will do my best and report back.

Thank you again Max.

 

[dave]

Update – EVAP hose removal test: Performed the EVAP hose removal test tonight. Bike started normally (normal cold engine, high RPM idle), and I rode around the neighborhood to warm the engine up. Mostly low speed, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gear only. After about 6 miles the low (700 RPM, slow return to 1,050 RPM) idle returned, so I immediately went home to perform the test. As I was getting the bike up onto the center stand the idle crept back up to 1,050 RPM. I pulled both the EVAP hoses off simultaneously, and the idle did a very, very slight increase (maybe 50 RPM) for only an instant (almost unnoticeable) change, and returned to 1,050 RPM. I blipped the throttle several times, and each time it returned to 1,050 RPM. Just 60 seconds earlier, before the EVAP hoses were removed, the idle would drop to 700 RPM each time I blipped the throttle. I plugged both hoses back in simultaneously, and the RPM change was the opposite from when the hoses were removed - this time the RPM dipped slightly (maybe 50 RPM), but quickly returned to 1,050 RPM. I blipped the throttle several times, and each time the engine returned to 1,050 RPM. I found this very interesting, because before I removed the EVAP hoses the RPM would drop to 700 RPM each time I blipped the throttle, but now it was not doing this. I repeated this exact, identical process four times, and each time the results were identical. I would have liked to have ridden the bike again but it was getting late. I will ride the bike tomorrow and repeat this test, and also ride it after removing the EVAP hoses.