tps evaluating for ii issues

[max]

Sounds like the right approach Dave, reading back through all your posts i conclude that you haven't yet used contact cleaner on the connector, is that right?

Not suggesting you do that either at this stage, just checking.

Did a test on my tps connector which is;
switch engine on, not starting it and watching the "check engine light".
slowly unclipping the connector and carefully sliding it out of it's position until the light starts flashing ( when the contacts break ).
It takes 3 seconds for the ecm to respond ( in my case ) and flash the light, so i slide 1 mm at a time and wait 4 seconds in between movements to make sure the ecm has not detected a disconnect.
This way i can slide the connector out for 4 mm before the light comes on.

What this means is that the contacts are positioned correctly in the housing and make contact over a long enough distance to be reliable from that perspective, it does not mean they are clean and make good contact, it only means they are in the right place.

Interesting about your contact cleaning pdedse and the effect it had, i will purposely not draw any conclusions since it is early days and we've been here before.

max

 

[Cormanus]

So I put 45 miles on the CB yesterday running errands, (30 miles on the freeway, 15 miles around town) hoping that I could make some progress diagnosing the idle problem. Before riding I rechecked the voltage at the TPS black/red connection with the bike off, sensor connected, and it measured .5 volts with the throttle closed, and it smoothly transitioned to 4.3 volts with the throttle wide open (it measured 4.4 volts with the throttle wide open the last time I measured it). I then checked the voltage with the engine started: .5 volts at idle (1,400 RPM cold), and a smooth increase as I twisted the throttle. I left the sewing needle plugged into the TPS connector, removed the battery cover (for quick access to the battery negative terminal), and packed my VOM in the trunk and set off. Unfortunately the low idle condition never occurred, and I did not make any additional measurements. I made four stops, where I turned the engine off, and probably over a dozen red lights, where the ide speed was a perfect 1,050 RPM each time. I am hoping the wife will agree to go for a ride today where we can rack up some good miles, and I will bring the VOM along (the sewing needle is still plugged into the TPS connection. I’ll make the measurements suggested by peterbaron also. Thanks for all your help guys.

Still watching this...I'm pulling for you, Dave! I keep hoping that it's simply a TPS connectivity issue for you.

So I put 45 miles on the CB yesterday running errands, (30 miles on the freeway, 15 miles around town) hoping that I could make some progress diagnosing the idle problem. Before riding I rechecked the voltage at the TPS black/red connection with the bike off, sensor connected, and it measured .5 volts with the throttle closed, and it smoothly transitioned to 4.3 volts with the throttle wide open (it measured 4.4 volts with the throttle wide open the last time I measured it). I then checked the voltage with the engine started: .5 volts at idle (1,400 RPM cold), and a smooth increase as I twisted the throttle. I left the sewing needle plugged into the TPS connector, removed the battery cover (for quick access to the battery negative terminal), and packed my VOM in the trunk and set off. Unfortunately the low idle condition never occurred, and I did not make any additional measurements. I made four stops, where I turned the engine off, and probably over a dozen red lights, where the ide speed was a perfect 1,050 RPM each time. I am hoping the wife will agree to go for a ride today where we can rack up some good miles, and I will bring the VOM along (the sewing needle is still plugged into the TPS connection. I’ll make the measurements suggested by peterbaron also. Thanks for all your help guys.

It woldn't dare act up with her along!

It woldn't dare act up with her along!
There’s also a law of the universe that says it won’t act up when you’re fully prepared to figure out the reason. Sometimes it’s hard to accept machines are inanimate.

 

[dave]

Put 191 miles on the CB today. We were totally prepared with my meter, the sewing needle stuck into the TPS connector, and the wife with her smart phone to record. About 50 miles of freeway, the rest on back/mountain/ desert roads. Stopped at least 20 times at lights. Turned the engine off and on 3 times. Temperature ranged from mid 60's to low 80's. Bike could not have performed better. Each time the idle was a perfect 1,050 RPM. I swear that when the low idle condition is NOT present the bike just runs better, and I say this because I can sense the bike responds quicker and better to throttle input when I am blipping the throttle on down shifts. I will continue to carry my meter with me whenever I ride, and I will repeat the TPS voltage test if/whenever the low idle condition returns.

Max, I have not used any cleaner to spray on my TPS contacts, yet. I deliberately have not done this because I do not want to introduce too many variables into the equation at one time. Thanks again, to all you great guys who are working to find a solution to this problem.

 

[pdedse]

Put 191 miles on the CB today. We were totally prepared with my meter, the sewing needle stuck into the TPS connector, and the wife with her smart phone to record. About 50 miles of freeway, the rest on back/mountain/ desert roads. Stopped at least 20 times at lights. Turned the engine off and on 3 times. Temperature ranged from mid 60's to low 80's. Bike could not have performed better. Each time the idle was a perfect 1,050 RPM. I swear that when the low idle condition is NOT present the bike just runs better, and I say this because I can sense the bike responds quicker and better to throttle input when I am blipping the throttle on down shifts. I will continue to carry my meter with me whenever I ride, and I will repeat the TPS voltage test if/whenever the low idle condition returns.

Max, I have not used any cleaner to spray on my TPS contacts, yet. I deliberately have not done this because I do not want to introduce too many variables into the equation at one time. Thanks again, to all you great guys who are working to find a solution to this problem.

Awesome! But the one new variable you did introduce was that your wife was along.
hy:

What does it mean if the issue comes back now without your wife along for the ride?
:huh:

 

[Cormanus]

Goto http://cb1100forum.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=11984&pid=194178#pid194178

 

[dave]

Awesome! But the one new variable you did introduce was that your wife was along.
Actually, she has been on the back for more miles accumulated on this bike than not. I chose this bike to use for our Sunday afternoon rides. I wanted to slow the pace down a little (compared to riding my VFR800), and be able to carry more things (I have a luggage rack with a detachable trunk, that has a back rest on it).

What does it mean if the issue comes back now without your wife along for the ride?

I have hoped several times already that the issue doesn't return after it mysteriously goes away, but it has come back every time. I guess it just means that we haven't solved the real issue, yet.

 

[pdedse]

Awesome! But the one new variable you did introduce was that your wife was along.
Actually, she has been on the back for more miles accumulated on this bike than not. I chose this bike to use for our Sunday afternoon rides. I wanted to slow the pace down a little (compared to riding my VFR800), and be able to carry more things (I have a luggage rack with a detachable trunk, that has a back rest on it).

What does it mean if the issue comes back now without your wife along for the ride?

I have hoped several times already that the issue doesn't return after it mysteriously goes away, but it has come back every time. I guess it just means that we haven't solved the real issue, yet.

Just kidding, of course, you know I'm hoping a fix is soon found. Did it act up again since the two of you went out two days ago?

 

[dave]

Low idle/stall condition is back. Rode the bike to a restaurant tonite about 5 miles (mostly freeway) from home and it ran perfectly (stopped at 4 stop lights). I stayed off the freeway on the way home and stopped to get gas, when I discovered the slow idle condition was creeping back. I rode around my neighborhood only 3 more miles before the 700 RPM idle condition was back in full force. I immediately pulled into my garage and turned the bike off with the key so that I could remove the seat and connect my meter to the negative battery terminal. I performed the voltage tests at the TPS with the TPS connected, and the results were slightly different from the last time I performed them.
Bike off:
Black/Yellow = 4.6 volts (last time I measured was 4.8 volts)
Black/Red = 0.45 volts throttle closed, 4.6 volts full throttle
Black/Green = 0.0 volts

Bike running:
Black/Yellow = 4.6 - 4.8 volts (yes, it went up)
Black/Red = 0.5 volts bike idling, voltage increased with throttle opening
Black/Green = 0.0 volts

I started the bike and kept it in the garage, TPS connected, blipping the throttle, all while measuring the voltage at the Black/Red connection. The idle remained constant, at about 1,050 RPM initially, but the voltage at idle varied from .4 to .5 volts. After about a dozen blips of the throttle the 700 RPM idle returned, and after about another half dozen blips of the throttle the engine stalled. Each time the RPM dropped to 700 RPM it would slowly work its way back up to roughly 1,000 RPM. At no time during the 700 RPM idle and gradual increase to 1,000 RPM condition did I observe any difference in the measured voltage at the Black/Red connector, even when the engine stalled. After the engine stalled I immediately checked the voltage at the Black/Yellow connection. Initially I was getting zero volts, but after playing with the sewing needle connection I again measured 4.6 volts. I don’t know if my initial measurement of zero volts was the result of a bad connection with the sewing needle or not. I repeated all of the voltage tests described above and the results were identical. I did NOT turn the key to the off position, and restarted the engine. The low idle condition was still present, and the Black/Red voltage remained the same. I turned the bike off with the key, let it sit for about 30 seconds, and restarted it. It was idling at a normal 1,050 RPM, and there was no change in voltage at the Black/Red connection. I turned the bike off and came in the house to report these results.

 

[max]

Low idle/stall condition is back. Rode the bike to a restaurant tonite about 5 miles (mostly freeway) from home and it ran perfectly (stopped at 4 stop lights). I stayed off the freeway on the way home and stopped to get gas, when I discovered the slow idle condition was creeping back. I rode around my neighborhood only 3 more miles before the 700 RPM idle condition was back in full force. I immediately pulled into my garage and turned the bike off with the key so that I could remove the seat and connect my meter to the negative battery terminal. I performed the voltage tests at the TPS with the TPS connected, and the results were slightly different from the last time I performed them.
Bike off:
Black/Yellow = 4.6 volts (last time I measured was 4.8 volts)
Black/Red = 0.45 volts throttle closed, 4.6 volts full throttle
Black/Green = 0.0 volts

Bike running:
Black/Yellow = 4.6 - 4.8 volts (yes, it went up)
Black/Red = 0.5 volts bike idling, voltage increased with throttle opening
Black/Green = 0.0 volts

I started the bike and kept it in the garage, TPS connected, blipping the throttle, all while measuring the voltage at the Black/Red connection. The idle remained constant, at about 1,050 RPM initially, but the voltage at idle varied from .4 to .5 volts. After about a dozen blips of the throttle the 700 RPM idle returned, and after about another half dozen blips of the throttle the engine stalled. Each time the RPM dropped to 700 RPM it would slowly work its way back up to roughly 1,000 RPM. At no time during the 700 RPM idle and gradual increase to 1,000 RPM condition did I observe any difference in the measured voltage at the Black/Red connector, even when the engine stalled. After the engine stalled I immediately checked the voltage at the Black/Yellow connection. Initially I was getting zero volts, but after playing with the sewing needle connection I again measured 4.6 volts. I don’t know if my initial measurement of zero volts was the result of a bad connection with the sewing needle or not. I repeated all of the voltage tests described above and the results were identical. I did NOT turn the key to the off position, and restarted the engine. The low idle condition was still present, and the Black/Red voltage remained the same. I turned the bike off with the key, let it sit for about 30 seconds, and restarted it. It was idling at a normal 1,050 RPM, and there was no change in voltage at the Black/Red connection. I turned the bike off and came in the house to report these results.

Good work Dave ,did you get any of that on video and if not can you try to do that?

max

 

[dave]

Low idle/stall condition is back. Rode the bike to a restaurant tonite about 5 miles (mostly freeway) from home and it ran perfectly (stopped at 4 stop lights). I stayed off the freeway on the way home and stopped to get gas, when I discovered the slow idle condition was creeping back. I rode around my neighborhood only 3 more miles before the 700 RPM idle condition was back in full force. I immediately pulled into my garage and turned the bike off with the key so that I could remove the seat and connect my meter to the negative battery terminal. I performed the voltage tests at the TPS with the TPS connected, and the results were slightly different from the last time I performed them.
Bike off:
Black/Yellow = 4.6 volts (last time I measured was 4.8 volts)
Black/Red = 0.45 volts throttle closed, 4.6 volts full throttle
Black/Green = 0.0 volts

Bike running:
Black/Yellow = 4.6 - 4.8 volts (yes, it went up)
Black/Red = 0.5 volts bike idling, voltage increased with throttle opening
Black/Green = 0.0 volts

I started the bike and kept it in the garage, TPS connected, blipping the throttle, all while measuring the voltage at the Black/Red connection. The idle remained constant, at about 1,050 RPM initially, but the voltage at idle varied from .4 to .5 volts. After about a dozen blips of the throttle the 700 RPM idle returned, and after about another half dozen blips of the throttle the engine stalled. Each time the RPM dropped to 700 RPM it would slowly work its way back up to roughly 1,000 RPM. At no time during the 700 RPM idle and gradual increase to 1,000 RPM condition did I observe any difference in the measured voltage at the Black/Red connector, even when the engine stalled. After the engine stalled I immediately checked the voltage at the Black/Yellow connection. Initially I was getting zero volts, but after playing with the sewing needle connection I again measured 4.6 volts. I don’t know if my initial measurement of zero volts was the result of a bad connection with the sewing needle or not. I repeated all of the voltage tests described above and the results were identical. I did NOT turn the key to the off position, and restarted the engine. The low idle condition was still present, and the Black/Red voltage remained the same. I turned the bike off with the key, let it sit for about 30 seconds, and restarted it. It was idling at a normal 1,050 RPM, and there was no change in voltage at the Black/Red connection. I turned the bike off and came in the house to report these results.

Good work Dave ,did you get any of that on video and if not can you try to do that?

max

Good work Dave ,did you get any of that on video and if not can you try to do that?

max Hi Max, thanks. No, I did not video this. Unfortunately my USB ports on my computer are not working now, so I cannot upload anything (just another item on my "To Do" list to fix - if I can). Also, it may be a very, very slight difference, but I swear I can tell a difference in the way my bike runs when it is experiencing the low idle/stall condition. Not only does it not respond as well to blipping the throttle, but I believe it is making less power, which may be the result of an incorrect fuel mixture. Do you think this points to the IACV? Thanks again Max.

 

[SportsterDoc]

Preliminary to a further reply by Max:

1. The ECM has an internal 5 vdc poower supply for sensors. The black/yellow output is going to be less with engine off for two reasons:

a. With key on, but engine not running, there is electrical drain, especially from the headlight, sagging the voltage.

b. With engine running, the 3 phase alternator is recharging the battery at 13.8 to 14.8 volts.

2. I am remain concerned about a vacuum leak, such as the two vacuum hose fittings or a poor electrical connection. However, a poor connection should result in a DTC:

12-1 for fuel injector 1

13-1 for fuel injector 2

14-1 for fuel injector 3

15-1 for fuel injector 4

29-1 for IACV, etc.

3. The earlier suggestion about the evap canister purge is worth considering. Max may have a different approach, but I would be inclined to unplug the "evap purge control solenoid valve". Wires are bl/w to junction and bl/y to ECM A29. That position is labeled PCS on the factory schematics. No clue as to when the ECM triggers a purge (definitely engine running and full operating temperature, maybe minimum RPM?), but be interesting to take that out of the picture. This thread has a clue as to its location (easily seen in front of airbox from right side-easy to unplug electrical connection) and another clue for this saga: http://cb1100forum.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=2819. Dave, what was the result of post 5 (2 May 2014)?

The bl/w wire is switched power from a 12 wire, 14 position junction, so the purge solenoid has power to it with the key on. The bl/y goes from the purge solenoid to the ECM, which must close the circuit, for the solenoid to operate. If the bl/y is grounded (rubbing on metal?) it would operate the purge without the ECM. Unprogrammed operation or stuck open would create a vacuum leak/lean operation. When unplugged, power to it should result in an audible click...no click if stuck open.

The canister itself is so buried, I thought I did not have one, but with the center stand down, looking up forward and higher than the voltage regulator, popgun educated me on its location.

To take the evap system completely out of operation, for testing, you may want to simply block off the vacuum line from the purge valve to the throttle body assembly, by removing the hose towards the left side of the bike and blocking it. It goes 90 degrees from horizontal to vertical and I cannot see its ultimate connection, without removing my fuel tank.

Will email a photo to Max and Peter, if they want to post.

 

[Lord Popgun]

Go to the right side of your motorcycle and look just forward of the breather cover and under the throttle body. It is in line with that round disk that some people glue a quarter to. The connector for it is right there and easily accessable.

 

[SportsterDoc]

I ran out of my 60 minute editing limit, but I mentioned in an email to popgun, Max and Peter that I would check into the PAIR air induction control solenoid valve as another possible issue. It allows filtered air from the air box to be drawn into the exhaust system. I do not see how this could be an issue with fueling. It simply reduces unspent fuel and increases the life of the catalytic converter.

I did block it on my 2012 Triumph Bonneville to reduce bluing of single wall exhaust pipes, but see no performance benefit to blocking or removal and doing so would likely be harmful to the catalytic converter.

We now resume our normal programming from Max...

10:14 Saturday morning in Nevada and 7:14 Sunday morning in Auckland.

Go to the right side of your motorcycle and look just forward of the breather cover and under the throttle body. It is in line with that round disk that some people glue a quarter to. The connector for it is right there and easily accessable.

Included you in the photo email, although you are no longer set up to post photos. Would like to give credit to the forum member who first suggested the purge valve, but I am not finding the post.

Until Dave checks it out, it seems a very likely candidate and fits into my vacuum loss concerns and I am not finding a DTC for it. Wonder if unplugging it results in a CEL?

If it is the issue, be curious to know if the valve is sticking open or if programmed operation. When it is running and in lower than normal idle, I'd be inclined to tap it with something (screwdriver handle, etc.)

 

[peterbaron]

Preliminary to a further reply by Max:

1. The ECM has an internal 5 vdc poower supply for sensors. The black/yellow output is going to be less with engine off for two reasons:

a. With key on, but engine not running, there is electrical drain, especially from the headlight, sagging the voltage.

b. With engine running, the 3 phase alternator is recharging the battery at 13.8 to 14.8 volts.

2. I am remain concerned about a vacuum leak, such as the two vacuum hose fittings or a poor electrical connection. However, a poor connection should result in a DTC:

12-1 for fuel injector 1

13-1 for fuel injector 2

14-1 for fuel injector 3

15-1 for fuel injector 4

29-1 for IACV, etc.

3. The earlier suggestion about the evap canister purge is worth considering. Max may have a different approach, but I would be inclined to unplug the "evap purge control solenoid valve". Wires are bl/w to junction and bl/y to ECM A29. That position is labeled PCS on the factory schematics. No clue as to when the ECM triggers a purge (definitely engine running and full operating temperature, maybe minimum RPM?), but be interesting to take that out of the picture. This thread has a clue as to its location (easily seen in front of airbox from right side-easy to unplug electrical connection) and another clue for this saga: http://cb1100forum.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=2819. Dave, what was the result of post 5 (2 May 2014)?

The bl/w wire is switched power from a 12 wire, 14 position junction, so the purge solenoid has power to it with the key on. The bl/y goes from the purge solenoid to the ECM, which must close the circuit, for the solenoid to operate. If the bl/y is grounded (rubbing on metal?) it would operate the purge without the ECM. Unprogrammed operation or stuck open would create a vacuum leak/lean operation. When unplugged, power to it should result in an audible click...no click if stuck open.

The canister itself is so buried, I thought I did not have one, but with the center stand down, looking up forward and higher than the voltage regulator, popgun educated me on its location.

To take the evap system completely out of operation, for testing, you may want to simply block off the vacuum line from the purge valve to the throttle body assembly, by removing the hose towards the left side of the bike and blocking it. It goes 90 degrees from horizontal to vertical and I cannot see its ultimate connection, without removing my fuel tank.

Will email a photo to Max and Peter, if they want to post.

Suggestion AS TO PCSV only
Make a long test short::
1* test condition:: engine hot/normal operating temp and NORMAL RPM (1050)
2* disconnect vacuum hose **that goes from PCSV to Th. body/intake manifold - NOT to canister = this will create vacuum leak or as if PCSV were stuck in open position (normally closed) and register RPM change. Please
3* Do not bother any other tests with EVAP/PCSV for now.
** careful, not to break nipple to PCSV
pb

 

[Lord Popgun]

The manual does not show a fault code for the purge valve. I can’t find anything explaining when it purges either, or if it it just energized all the time. I could find that out easily with a meter though.

 

[peterbaron]

The manual does not show a fault code for the purge valve. I can’t find anything explaining when it purges either, or if it it just energized all the time. I could find that out easily with a meter though.

We already know there is NO DTC for EVAP/PCSV,,just want to see if in case the PCSV gets stuck open at normal idle there is significant RPM droppage

pb

 

[dave]

Max, popgun, Doc, and peterbaron - thank you all so much for all you help! Right now I need to focus my attention on repairing my truck, so I won't be able to perform any more tests on the CB this weekend. Except, I just purchased some contact cleaner (don't they sell this stuff in a smaller than $9.99 size?) and I sprayed the TPS connection. I will ride the bike later today. Thank you all again.

 

[max]

Thanks for the input guys, i like peter's idea about the valve, i found a picture that explains where the vacuum lines attach, i guess you want to take off the hose at the back that is hard to get to?

the valve is the blue/silver thing on the top right without cannister hose.



i wonder when this valve operates, can we make dave's life easier by disconnecting the hose at the front and opening the valve?

Actually looking at the picture is it not easier to pull one of the outer vacuum hoses off the throttle body if it is just the effect it has that we are after?

Also wondering if we should look at o2 sensor voltage at some point?

 

[SportsterDoc]

Based upon emails from Max And Peter, I am going to back-off.
Max still has some concerns about the TPS and this is his thread.

 

[dave]

First, thank all of you guys for your support! I really, really appreciate all the time and effort you gentlemen are putting into helping me resolve this issue.

Update: Sprayed the TPS connector with electrical cleaner Saturday. Put 180 miles on the CB Sunday; ½ freeway, ½ mountain / back roads. Temperature was in the upper 70’s, and the elevation change was from sea-level to 4,000 feet. Averaged about 80 mph on freeway for 40 miles. Bike ran perfect. Only turned it off twice and restarted, and maybe 10 stoplights. Perfect 1,050 RPM idle each time.

Here’s some information that might help shed some light: My bike initially had a high RPM (1,400 RPM) issue, which I haven’t experienced in over probably 18 months now. When I was experiencing a high idle condition and I pulled to the side of the road to try anything I could to cure it. I turned it off and on, using the key. I turned it off and on with the kill switch. I turned it off, and then performed the TPS reset process. I blipped the throttle with the engine running, revving it as high as 6,000 RPM. Nothing helped. But suddenly, almost like someone flipped a switch, the RPM dropped, and the engine stalled. When I restarted it I believe that this was the first time that I ever experienced the low RPM idle condition. I am not 100% sure, but this may have been the last time my bike ever experienced the high RPM idle, but now began the low RPM idle condition. So I believe that whatever is causing my low RPM idle must have a root cause related to something that has the potential to change quickly, and that something has the ability to cause both a high and low RPM idle condition. What can change quickly? An electrical connection? The electrical output of one of the sensors? I don’t think it would be a vacuum leak, because it resulted in both a high and low idle condition.

I will look into the EVAP purge control valve, recommended by Doc. Unfortunately, right now I am committed to a lot of OT at work, so I don’t have time in the evening, and this weekend is the Supercross. I can put off the fork seal replacement and steering head bearings replacement on my VFR, and the head gasket replacement on my car, but I won’t be able to get back to working on the CB11 for at least a week. I do plan to ride the CB11 tomorrow evening, and I will report any issues.

Doc, the loud noise I reported when I first turn on my key (that you asked me about) seems to have gone away. I still hear the sound of the fuel pump and (I think) IACV cycling when I turn on the key, but not as loud as it did on that one occasion.