The Coronavirus Chronicles -Three Strikes You're Out

[baxtercat_imp]

Stichill is expressing a political philosophy. Back in the 18th and 19th centuries, when we were colonies and then a big, empty country, the idea of manifest destiny encouraged us to rebel against collectivism and assert our individual rights. But today we no longer live on the frontier--we live in a world where a great many people must live next to and get along with other people. Our fates are all more connected than ever before, and we must accommodate ourselves to the fact that one person's expression of freedom can impinge on others, without their even being aware.

When we are compelled to get a license or insurance to operate a motorcycle, we are living with collectivism. My premium pays for your accident. When we follow the rules of the road, we are living with collectivism. When hospitals treat us for anything, we enter a collectivized system. My point is that it's the 21st century, and we can no longer afford absolutist slogans about individual rights and "protecting our freedoms." We must be realistic about other peoples' rights--which cannot simply be about suing for them in court. . We have to balance individual freedoms with collective needs. The pandemic is making the real complexity of that balancing all too clear, but a dialogue like this--as Guth suggests--is helpful.

 

[Henrik_imp]

I get what you are saying Ferret, and I am pretty sure you also get what I am saying. I too would love to go for a ride, and honestly with the wonderful weather we have had over the past two weeks I have been extremely tempted to do it.

Now I personally do not need my government to tell me specifically what I can or cannot do. I am able to apply a certain level of logic under the current circumstance, and if they say that it is safe for me to travel to a park I will still choose not to for two main reasons. The first is the journey, as I am exposing myself unnecessarily to the dangers of an accident. I am not concerned about contracting the virus while riding however, but I would then be concerned about that once at the destination as any social gathering will increase the risk of being infected. Maybe to stop to use the restroom, or cross a jogger who passes a bit too closely to you etc.

Also, apartment or three bedroom house on 5 acres makes a huge difference! On your five acres you are able to go outside, take walks or even jog on the open without coming in to the contact with anybody. You are not confined within a closed space. Having been confined to a small apartment during a war in my youth, and can assure you that having the freedom now to go out in my garden whenever I want to without any risk changes everything! Yes it would be great to also see a different scenery from time to time, but being confined with 5 acres around you even for two or three months is completely different, and way batter, than being confined in an apartment for the same period of time. A few months of riding is not really that bad.

Finally, I live at the foot of the most popular motorcycle road in the area. In the last couple of weeks, with the beautiful weather a combined with many people not going to work, has led to there being a quite large number of motorcycle riders coming by here every day. Normally it is only like that on the weekends, but now it is every day. And every day there are at least two ambulances that have been going up that road to pick up some over enthusiastic rider. I for one do not believe that is helping the situation one bit.

In the end, we will all decide to do what we want. Yes, there are many other people that are not out riding motorcycles who are engaging in dangerous behaviour that either helps overload the medical services, or increases the rate of transmission of the virus. I disagree with all of that behaviour, I just raised the motorcycle riding part on here as it is a motorcycle forum. I am looking forward to a time, hopefully in just a couple of months, when this crisis has subsided to an extent where I can again go riding with my conscious free.

 

[pdedse]

Thought about staying out of this...but what the heck, why?

For the purpose of making a point, mc riding here means leaving home / riding / arriving home with zero contact with others, unless going to store to buy needed items, filling for gas (which others can do in their vehicles, at least where I live, Oregon).

As I read comments it appears to me that the main argument against riding a MC right now is not that you could contract CV, nor is it that you would pass it along to someone, but rather this:

A rider could have an accident requiring medical attention. Now 1) you could contract CV at the hospital, 2) you could be a carrier and pass CV along to others, and 3) in hospital, you would be taking up space, resources, placing demands on a system that is overloaded.

Summary: mc riding is particularly risky and is behavior that can be controlled
Conclusion: don't ride right now
Expanded conclusion: controllable behavior that is risky could send one to the hospital, and therefore must not be practiced.

How far do we take this? Question: are we to analyze other behaviors, choices, habits with similar scrutiny?

What other controllable, risky behaviors do people practice? How about those that smoke, drink excessively, don't exercise, don't eat well. They have been practicing controllable, risky behavior for years and now in the midst of the CV crisis, they have a health problem that needs emergency attention requiring hospitalization, where they are at risk or put others at risk or use resources that could be applied elsewhere. One could ask, where was their sense of "social responsibility" all the time leading up to their emergency?

Again, how far do we take this?

In OR, we're told we can still do hikes, walks, exercise where we don't come into contact with others. I like to hike rain or shine, am fortunate to live within walking distance of a forest. Some of the inclines are steep, yesterday I slipped a few times in the mud. I could have pierced my leg on a pointy branch, broken an ankle. Maybe I should just walk on the sidewalks for the next few weeks. I'm not being facetious with that.

But one more time, how far do we take this?

 

[Stichill]

Stichill is expressing a political philosophy. Back in the 18th and 19th centuries, when we were colonies and then a big, empty country, the idea of manifest destiny encouraged us to rebel against collectivism and assert our individual rights. But today we no longer live on the frontier--we live in a world where a great many people must live next to and get along with other people. Our fates are all more connected than ever before, and we must accommodate ourselves to the fact that one person's expression of freedom can impinge on others, without their even being aware.

When we are compelled to get a license or insurance to operate a motorcycle, we are living with collectivism. My premium pays for your accident. When we follow the rules of the road, we are living with collectivism. When hospitals treat us for anything, we enter a collectivized system. My point is that it's the 21st century, and we can no longer afford absolutist slogans about individual rights and "protecting our freedoms." We must be realistic about other peoples' rights--which cannot simply be about suing for them in court. . We have to balance individual freedoms with collective needs. The pandemic is making the real complexity of that balancing all too clear, but a dialogue like this--as Guth suggests--is helpful.

With the exception of your insurance example, it is collectivism, and I'm not in favor of any of it. Insurance is a voluntary association formed to indemnify its members from specific risks. Collectivized education has lead to mass ignorance; collectivized roads have lead to urban sprawl, pollution, and snarled traffic; collectivized medicine has lead to rampant costs (US) or rationing & lower standards of care (single payer schemes). The market would outperform in all of these circumstances.

Stichill is expressing a political philosophy. Back in the 18th and 19th centuries, when we were colonies and then a big, empty country, the idea of manifest destiny encouraged us to rebel against collectivism and assert our individual rights. But today we no longer live on the frontier--we live in a world where a great many people must live next to and get along with other people. Our fates are all more connected than ever before, and we must accommodate ourselves to the fact that one person's expression of freedom can impinge on others, without their even being aware.

When we are compelled to get a license or insurance to operate a motorcycle, we are living with collectivism. My premium pays for your accident. When we follow the rules of the road, we are living with collectivism. When hospitals treat us for anything, we enter a collectivized system. My point is that it's the 21st century, and we can no longer afford absolutist slogans about individual rights and "protecting our freedoms." We must be realistic about other peoples' rights--which cannot simply be about suing for them in court. . We have to balance individual freedoms with collective needs. The pandemic is making the real complexity of that balancing all too clear, but a dialogue like this--as Guth suggests--is helpful.

The road to h-*-l-l is paved with words like that. Go back and read some of Adolph Hitler's speeches if you want to hear it expressed to its fullest.

Frédéric Bastiat in The Law (1850) Wrote:Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the distinction between government and society. As a result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government, the socialists conclude that we object to its being done at all. We disapprove of state education. Then the socialists say that we are opposed to any education. We object to a state religion. Then the socialists say that we want no religion at all. We object to a state-enforced equality. Then they say that we are against equality. And so on, and so on. It is as if the socialists were to accuse us of not wanting persons to eat because we do not want the state to raise grain. I do not dispute their right to invent social combinations, to advertise them, to advocate them, and to try them upon themselves, at their own expense and risk. But I do dispute their right to impose these plans upon us by law – by force – and to compel us to pay for them with our taxes.

Thought about staying out of this...but what the heck, why?

For the purpose of making a point, mc riding here means leaving home / riding / arriving home with zero contact with others, unless going to store to buy needed items, filling for gas (which others can do in their vehicles, at least where I live, Oregon).

As I read comments it appears to me that the main argument against riding a MC right now is not that you could contract CV, nor is it that you would pass it along to someone, but rather this:

A rider could have an accident requiring medical attention. Now 1) you could contract CV at the hospital, 2) you could be a carrier and pass CV along to others, and 3) in hospital, you would be taking up space, resources, placing demands on a system that is overloaded.

Summary: mc riding is particularly risky and is behavior that can be controlled
Conclusion: don't ride right now
Expanded conclusion: controllable behavior that is risky could send one to the hospital, and therefore must not be practiced.

How far do we take this? Question: are we to analyze other behaviors, choices, habits with similar scrutiny?

What other controllable, risky behaviors do people practice? How about those that smoke, drink excessively, don't exercise, don't eat well. They have been practicing controllable, risky behavior for years and now in the midst of the CV crisis, they have a health problem that needs emergency attention requiring hospitalization, where they are at risk or put others at risk or use resources that could be applied elsewhere. One could ask, where was their sense of "social responsibility" all the time leading up to their emergency?

Again, how far do we take this?

In OR, we're told we can still do hikes, walks, exercise where we don't come into contact with others. I like to hike rain or shine, am fortunate to live within walking distance of a forest. Some of the inclines are steep, yesterday I slipped a few times in the mud. I could have pierced my leg on a pointy branch, broken an ankle. Maybe I should just walk on the sidewalks for the next few weeks. I'm not being facetious with that.

But one more time, how far do we take this?

+1

 

[Guth_imp]

This thread has just reached the point where I feel a need to step in and ask you guys to be careful where you tread (no tire puns intended).
I would also ask that people be clear as to what exactly are your concerns for the sake of the discussion to keep it from spreading too wide.

One wants to go for a ride, do you only consider stopping doing so if told to stop by someone else?

One wants to go for a ride, do you feel that person is at any more risk of contracting the virus than anyone else at that point in time?

One wants to go for a ride and is involved in an accident, should that person expect to receive care as a result under the circumstances or does that depend on what they are told they can or can't do?

The list could go on, but hopefully you see my point. i don't get the impression that everyone here is even talking about the same thing. Perhaps I'm wrong, I still have a day job to tend to so don't have time to thoroughly look things over. Just know that I am checking in on occasion, primarily just to try and get a sense for how things are going.

Forgive me if you think that I myself am being too cautious. I would note that I work in the health care industry and am being exposed to just how insane things are behind the scenes as health care providers like the one I work for are desperately scrambling around the clock to prepare as best they can for what appears right now to be a situation that is only going to get worse over the next few months at a minimum, the extent of which is changing daily. Different times folks, definitely different times.

 

[Gone in 60]

Quote:Anyone claiming liberty for himself rationally needs to respect it for others. No one has the right to recklessly or intentionally endanger the health and safety of others, and for that reason we do have laws and enforcement in place to keep the peace and protect individual liberty.
Not passing judgement on anyone here, but noting something that Stitchell says that is basic common sense. Especially now, everyone recognizes that, as Stitchell says, no one has the right to recklessly endanger the health and safety of anyone else.

Of course, in any society, there will be people who don't consider the greater good no matter what the situation. I still think it's interesting that the California Governor said that "public shaming" should be an effective policing measure. I don't see that ending well in several scenarios. On my daily walks to the nearby park, I have yet to wag my finger at the typically five or so guys playing half-court basketball. There are more of them than me, and they look bigger than me.

To that effect, I noticed something interesting last night. I've been doing my part, staying inside my home, and only going out when I need to. I've done a few wellness checks on my elderly parents, and it's surreal to see everyone driving more carefully than normal by Southern California standards on the freeways, maintaining safe distances and all going a reasonable 65-70 mph, with a fraction of the cars that are normally on the roads.

Enter the guy who values his personal freedom over all else. The guy in an M5 or GT350 who is in the left lane going 110 mph, simply because he has never been able to before. I've seen "banzai runners" on the freeways every time I have gone a long distance during the outbreak. I'm either on a CB or in a Ford Fiesta. Not much I can do by way of public shaming.

But, apparently this practice has been noticed.

Last night, I went to the office to get some packages prepped and shipped. Heading down the freeway, I noticed two very subtle yet deliberate CHP speed traps set up. Both were "tag teams" that I have seen before to catch high speed drivers. One car set up on the shoulder, lights off, spotting the speeders, radioing to the second car, positioned at the end of an on-ramp a mile or so up, who is poised to pounce on the guy driving like an idiot.

Glad to see this. Don't need someone closing on me at 30 over my speed. That would put me in a hospital bed no matter what I'm driving.

 

[alprider]

At the moment it is simply said in "our" country: do not exaggerate because the word "forbidden" has not yet been explicitly used by the authorities.


at the moment they are overriding the events almost every day .... ev, in a few weeks (months) there is a certain kind of routine in all the different (chaos) areas ....... so that then a certain calculation is possible ...



Darum ist die Corona-Pandemie nicht in wenigen Wochen vorbei


take we the link above (sorry its all german) with the video of possible scenario waves up to e.g. everyone is immune or we have it under control so far




in german we have a saying it calls some like this

Your freedom ends where you start restricting others

 

[the Ferret]

Looking at the responses and noting where the respondents come from, it appears to me that those favoring the most restriction are either from Europe or from the east and west coasts of the US. Differing philosophies than those in the fly over country of the US.

and a note about isolation and how big 5 acres is .. I know it sounds like a lot to most people

But: If you were marooned on an island that covered 5 acres. It wouldn't take long before you realized how small 5 acres really is. Sure it's bigger than 1/4 acre or an acre, but after 3 days, you'd be sick of spending all your time walking around that island, and seeing the same trees over and over again. After a few weeks you wouldn't even get walk around except to go gather firewood and some coconuts.

Think about the movie with Tom Hanks, Cast Away.

 

[Houtman_imp]

Many wife's have practiced social distancing for many years but mainly at night....

 

[Gone in 60]

HA! I've been sleeping in a different room since January, as my wife's "recovery cocoon" takes about 2/3 of our bed. That puts us about 12 feet apart, so I guess we're safe.

Ferret, regarding your meme photo... I watched the preview for Tom Hanks' upcoming movie Greyhound, where he plays a WW2 destroyer captain. One of the comments below the video said "Tom Hanks won't rest until he's played every American."

I can imagine he'd play a very compelling motorcycle enthusiast, looking at his bike longingly but not being able to ride it.

 

[Cormanus]

Poor Tom. He and his wife got the virus and we locked him up. They've been released I think.

 

[GoldOxide_imp]

in belgium its now forbitten biking for fun.....

because there are no resources for such unnecessary possible accident victims

Hmm, yeah, I have read that argument elsewhere. It certainly could be construed as a selfish act should the rider be involved in an accident. I suspect we all need to be mindful of others, even if we are riding isolated.

 

[the Ferret]

There you are GO...where you been? I sent you a PM days ago.

 

[zirconxi_imp]

I haven't touch my bike since my country announced movement control order. Working in the food industry which are allowed to continue to work, i have been driving to work everyday since day 1 of the Order. Most bikers here stop riding for the sake of others.
The success or failure of the Order will depends on everyone cooperation. Military were deployed after 1 weeks of only 60% compliance... And the numbers of infected patients is growing by day. Government even reach out to private hospital to loan ventilators. And some hospital emergency units were temporary shut down due to visit by patients who are infected, whom them self are not aware.
I had tried practice social distancing everyday and there will be some idiots who will just bump into you while they move.. Some might felt the movement control order are in-humane or violate the basic human rights, I guess its all depends on if the person is self centered or community centered.

Such once in a life time chance of "being a hero by just staying home" doesn't come by often. So why not, just stay at home and be a hero, unless you are needed elsewhere as a hero.

 

[alprider]

sorry its german but with the onlinetranslater

MSN

 

[alprider]

means nomore breath machines/ ventilators for new patients 80+ and many more facts in the text

 

[the Ferret]

The governor's Stay at Home order allows one to go to a park. The last 2 days I have ridden up to the nearest park (19.4 miles round trip..satisfies the need to ride). Seems a lot of people have been taking the Governor's advice. Yesterday was a particularly nice day (today will be even nicer) and it seems a lot of people were taking the opportunity to get out and enjoy some sunshine and exercise, Bicyclists, joggers, other motorcyclists, people in canoe's, dock sitters/people fishing, people at the archery range ,boaters, walkers and hikers .

Everyone seemed to be practicing their social distancing except maybe the hikers unless they were all from the same household?

On my way home a neighbor stopped me on the street to chat, then another neighbor drove up and joined the chat. We maintained social distancing but those were the closest people I have been to in 2 weeks not counting going to the grocery store. I felt a bit crowded lol.

 

[Stichill]

Awesome, ferret. The weather is incredible now

 

[emptysea]

OK. My guess is that more people are hospitalized for bicycle crashes than motorcycle crashes. Assuming that is true, and given that the Illinois restrictions do not apply to outdoor activities like "walking, running, or biking", I rode yesterday. Rationale? First, our governor should have been more specific in his wording of the executive order and second, he approved an activity that has a greater likelihood to fill hospital beds than motorcycling does.

80 miles along Lake Michigan. It was lovely.

 

[Nemo_imp]

:biker: My travel plans for the weekend

TO THE WINDOOoow!!!

TO THE WALL!!!
:banana::banana::banana:

:rofl: