Replacing Wheels - Manual Instructions Ludicrous

[jasonsargonautalis_imp]

Okay so the bent wheels on my 2013 are finally about to hit the road to get bent back into shape. I've been waiting for a headlift stand to arrive and I'm looking at the manual ahead of time to check install/uninstall instructions.

Am I losing my mind? Honda asks for an insane amount of parts to be "new" on re-installation. The info for the front wheel on page 12-18 appears to be appears to be:
Quote:Front Brake Caliper Mounting Bolts (4)
Right dust seal (1)
Left dust seal (1)
Right wheel bearing (1)
Left wheel bearing (1)
Brake disk bolt (10)
Brake disk washer (10)
Brake disk spring (10)
Brake disk collar (10)
For the rear wheel on page 13-12:

Quote:Rear pulser ring bolts (3)
Rear brake disc bolts (5)
Right dust seal (1)
Right wheel bearing (1)
Left wheel bearings (2)
O Ring (1)
This seems wildly overzealous to me on Honda's part but I don't claim to be a mechanic. I know some parts undergo deformation as a part of proper seating but the torque values on this are rather low (the driven flange bolts, which I'm not uninstalling, being the highest in the 108 N.m/80lb range). I've mostly owned older bikes with manuals that don't call for much part replacement outside of gaskets - so I don't know what to think.

I want to remain safe but I need a realistic assessment on what I actually need to replace. I don't have the money for all of this right now and I'm going to need the bike to get to work soon. Can anyone with experience in this give me some guidance?

 

[peterbaron]

I think these have to be replaced, no multiple application once torqued to specs.
Brake disk bolt (10)
Brake disk washer (10)
Brake disk spring (10)
Brake disk collar (10)

One member had a problem with broken brake disk bolt.

 

[Lord Popgun]

First, are you building a bare wheel? Or re-installing one with the rotors, bearings, etc installed?

If reinstalling parts, you could use the old bearings if necessary, but the disk bolts should be new ones. Reinstalling the old ones have been known to sheer off when re-torquing them. Then fun starts.
And—
The disk spring washers, springs and collars should be replaced also so as to ensure the disk floats properly.
Failure to do so could lead to brake binding as a member found out.

The caliper bolts are ALOC bolts. That means the bolt comes with a locking compound on it and are one-time use. OR, put your own thread locker on it and torque to spec. That is what I do based on my dealer saying they do that.

If you are installing bearing, read the instructions a bunch of times. You can’t just bang them in and be done. They have to be seated correctly and not bind the spacer tube in there. Someone else may chime in on this as I haven’t done this job yet.

 

[GoldOxide_imp]

Honda is probably compelled to be very conservative and specify a lot of part replacement, assuming nothing about the condition of the used parts and the issues remarked by Popgun. This may help keep their corporate lawyers idle.

 

[pekingduck]

GO, the phrase "an abundance of caution" comes to mind. And as Popgun says, it depends what you're doing. If you are powdercoating the wheels, it's not a bad idea to replace the bearings and seals but, again, not mandatory.

New caliper and rotor bolts come with a "locking" adhesive, but could be re-used with a proper amount of locking adhesive. But lacking the proper type adhesive, someone might use silicone sealant, super-glue, anti-sieze compound, or nothing at all.

Not using the correct locking agent impacts the torque reading, at the least. So bolt replacement is the idiot-proof solution.

According to the manual, the washer, spring, and collar for the discs do not have to be replaced.

 

[DBM_imp]

When replacing bearings heat the cases/hubs and use a long skinny punch and slowly work it out. Put the new bearings in the freezer and then reheat the pocket. They will drop right in.

Okay so the bent wheels on my 2013 are finally about to hit the road to get bent back into shape. I've been waiting for a headlift stand to arrive and I'm looking at the manual ahead of time to check install/uninstall instructions.

Am I losing my mind? Honda asks for an insane amount of parts to be "new" on re-installation. The info for the front wheel on page 12-18 appears to be appears to be:
Quote:Front Brake Caliper Mounting Bolts (4)
Right dust seal (1)
Left dust seal (1)
Right wheel bearing (1)
Left wheel bearing (1)
Brake disk bolt (10)
Brake disk washer (10)
Brake disk spring (10)
Brake disk collar (10)
For the rear wheel on page 13-12:

Quote:Rear pulser ring bolts (3)
Rear brake disc bolts (5)
Right dust seal (1)
Right wheel bearing (1)
Left wheel bearings (2)
O Ring (1)
This seems wildly overzealous to me on Honda's part but I don't claim to be a mechanic. I know some parts undergo deformation as a part of proper seating but the torque values on this are rather low (the driven flange bolts, which I'm not uninstalling, being the highest in the 108 N.m/80lb range). I've mostly owned older bikes with manuals that don't call for much part replacement outside of gaskets - so I don't know what to think.

I want to remain safe but I need a realistic assessment on what I actually need to replace. I don't have the money for all of this right now and I'm going to need the bike to get to work soon. Can anyone with experience in this give me some guidance?

For the rear wheel on page 13-12:

Quote:Rear pulser ring bolts (3)
Rear brake disc bolts (5)
Right dust seal (1)
Right wheel bearing (1)
Left wheel bearings (2)
O Ring (1)
This seems wildly overzealous to me on Honda's part but I don't claim to be a mechanic. I know some parts undergo deformation as a part of proper seating but the torque values on this are rather low (the driven flange bolts, which I'm not uninstalling, being the highest in the 108 N.m/80lb range). I've mostly owned older bikes with manuals that don't call for much part replacement outside of gaskets - so I don't know what to think.

I want to remain safe but I need a realistic assessment on what I actually need to replace. I don't have the money for all of this right now and I'm going to need the bike to get to work soon. Can anyone with experience in this give me some guidance?

 

[GoldOxide_imp]

When replacing bearings heat the cases/hubs and use a long skinny punch and slowly work it out. Put the new bearings in the freezer and then reheat the pocket. They will drop right in.

Okay so the bent wheels on my 2013 are finally about to hit the road to get bent back into shape. I've been waiting for a headlift stand to arrive and I'm looking at the manual ahead of time to check install/uninstall instructions.

Am I losing my mind? Honda asks for an insane amount of parts to be "new" on re-installation. The info for the front wheel on page 12-18 appears to be appears to be:
Quote:Front Brake Caliper Mounting Bolts (4)
Right dust seal (1)
Left dust seal (1)
Right wheel bearing (1)
Left wheel bearing (1)
Brake disk bolt (10)
Brake disk washer (10)
Brake disk spring (10)
Brake disk collar (10)
For the rear wheel on page 13-12:

Quote:Rear pulser ring bolts (3)
Rear brake disc bolts (5)
Right dust seal (1)
Right wheel bearing (1)
Left wheel bearings (2)
O Ring (1)
This seems wildly overzealous to me on Honda's part but I don't claim to be a mechanic. I know some parts undergo deformation as a part of proper seating but the torque values on this are rather low (the driven flange bolts, which I'm not uninstalling, being the highest in the 108 N.m/80lb range). I've mostly owned older bikes with manuals that don't call for much part replacement outside of gaskets - so I don't know what to think.

I want to remain safe but I need a realistic assessment on what I actually need to replace. I don't have the money for all of this right now and I'm going to need the bike to get to work soon. Can anyone with experience in this give me some guidance?

For the rear wheel on page 13-12:

Quote:Rear pulser ring bolts (3)
Rear brake disc bolts (5)
Right dust seal (1)
Right wheel bearing (1)
Left wheel bearings (2)
O Ring (1)
This seems wildly overzealous to me on Honda's part but I don't claim to be a mechanic. I know some parts undergo deformation as a part of proper seating but the torque values on this are rather low (the driven flange bolts, which I'm not uninstalling, being the highest in the 108 N.m/80lb range). I've mostly owned older bikes with manuals that don't call for much part replacement outside of gaskets - so I don't know what to think.

I want to remain safe but I need a realistic assessment on what I actually need to replace. I don't have the money for all of this right now and I'm going to need the bike to get to work soon. Can anyone with experience in this give me some guidance?

Thanks for the tip.

 

[jasonsargonautalis_imp]

First, are you building a bare wheel? Or re-installing one with the rotors, bearings, etc installed?

If reinstalling parts, you could use the old bearings if necessary, but the disk bolts should be new ones. Reinstalling the old ones have been known to sheer off when re-torquing them. Then fun starts.
And—
The disk spring washers, springs and collars should be replaced also so as to ensure the disk floats properly.
Failure to do so could lead to brake binding as a member found out.

The caliper bolts are ALOC bolts. That means the bolt comes with a locking compound on it and are one-time use. OR, put your own thread locker on it and torque to spec. That is what I do based on my dealer saying they do that.

If you are installing bearing, read the instructions a bunch of times. You can’t just bang them in and be done. They have to be seated correctly and not bind the spacer tube in there. Someone else may chime in on this as I haven’t done this job yet.

Ugh that's a massive pain. So yeah these are the bent up wheels that are going out to be re-shaped. The person I'm talking to has asked for the rotors to be uninstalled for reshaping. The bearings feel fine on the bike but I'll have a better idea once the wheel is uninstalled. If I get them off, and the bearings are trashed, I might just buy Houtman's wheels. I suspected the rotor bolts would need replacement but the rest of it is a surprise.

The bolt collars in particular are shockingly expensive ($10.50/ea?!). Is there a better place to look for parts than Partzilla?

I'm comfortable putting threadlocker on the caliper bolts. I have blue for sure and I don't mind buying red, if need be.

Honda is probably compelled to be very conservative and specify a lot of part replacement, assuming nothing about the condition of the used parts and the issues remarked by Popgun. This may help keep their corporate lawyers idle.

This is what my assumption is on a lot of their replacement suggestions. I've talked to Honda techs in the past that say they don't replace a lot of parts Honda says to put as new because it's overkill. (e.g. You're supposed to replace the gasket for the fuel line every time you disconnect it, apparently.)

GO, the phrase "an abundance of caution" comes to mind. And as Popgun says, it depends what you're doing. If you are powdercoating the wheels, it's not a bad idea to replace the bearings and seals but, again, not mandatory.

New caliper and rotor bolts come with a "locking" adhesive, but could be re-used with a proper amount of locking adhesive. But lacking the proper type adhesive, someone might use silicone sealant, super-glue, anti-sieze compound, or nothing at all.

Not using the correct locking agent impacts the torque reading, at the least. So bolt replacement is the idiot-proof solution.

According to the manual, the washer, spring, and collar for the discs do not have to be replaced.

So this is what I initially thought based on the graphic on 12-18 [uploaded a scan here]. However the graphic on page 12-19 [[url=https://i.imgur.com/CNk44rw.jpg]scan here] implies that the bolt, spring, collar, and washer all need to be replaced by putting the [NEW] symbol by "[2]/[4]/[5]/[6]". Do you think this is just a lack of clarity on Honda's part?

I have half a mind to track down one of those Honda certified techs I used to know and ask.

 

[GoldOxide_imp]

First, are you building a bare wheel? Or re-installing one with the rotors, bearings, etc installed?

If reinstalling parts, you could use the old bearings if necessary, but the disk bolts should be new ones. Reinstalling the old ones have been known to sheer off when re-torquing them. Then fun starts.
And—
The disk spring washers, springs and collars should be replaced also so as to ensure the disk floats properly.
Failure to do so could lead to brake binding as a member found out.

The caliper bolts are ALOC bolts. That means the bolt comes with a locking compound on it and are one-time use. OR, put your own thread locker on it and torque to spec. That is what I do based on my dealer saying they do that.

If you are installing bearing, read the instructions a bunch of times. You can’t just bang them in and be done. They have to be seated correctly and not bind the spacer tube in there. Someone else may chime in on this as I haven’t done this job yet.

Ugh that's a massive pain. So yeah these are the bent up wheels that are going out to be re-shaped. The person I'm talking to has asked for the rotors to be uninstalled for reshaping. The bearings feel fine on the bike but I'll have a better idea once the wheel is uninstalled. If I get them off, and the bearings are trashed, I might just buy Houtman's wheels. I suspected the rotor bolts would need replacement but the rest of it is a surprise.

The bolt collars in particular are shockingly expensive ($10.50/ea?!). Is there a better place to look for parts than Partzilla?

I'm comfortable putting threadlocker on the caliper bolts. I have blue for sure and I don't mind buying red, if need be.

Honda is probably compelled to be very conservative and specify a lot of part replacement, assuming nothing about the condition of the used parts and the issues remarked by Popgun. This may help keep their corporate lawyers idle.

This is what my assumption is on a lot of their replacement suggestions. I've talked to Honda techs in the past that say they don't replace a lot of parts Honda says to put as new because it's overkill. (e.g. You're supposed to replace the gasket for the fuel line every time you disconnect it, apparently.)

GO, the phrase "an abundance of caution" comes to mind. And as Popgun says, it depends what you're doing. If you are powdercoating the wheels, it's not a bad idea to replace the bearings and seals but, again, not mandatory.

New caliper and rotor bolts come with a "locking" adhesive, but could be re-used with a proper amount of locking adhesive. But lacking the proper type adhesive, someone might use silicone sealant, super-glue, anti-sieze compound, or nothing at all.

Not using the correct locking agent impacts the torque reading, at the least. So bolt replacement is the idiot-proof solution.

According to the manual, the washer, spring, and collar for the discs do not have to be replaced.

So this is what I initially thought based on the graphic on 12-18 [uploaded a scan here]. However the graphic on page 12-19 [[url=https://i.imgur.com/CNk44rw.jpg]scan here] implies that the bolt, spring, collar, and washer all need to be replaced by putting the [NEW] symbol by "[2]/[4]/[5]/[6]". Do you think this is just a lack of clarity on Honda's part?

I have half a mind to track down one of those Honda certified techs I used to know and ask.

This is what my assumption is on a lot of their replacement suggestions. I've talked to Honda techs in the past that say they don't replace a lot of parts Honda says to put as new because it's overkill. (e.g. You're supposed to replace the gasket for the fuel line every time you disconnect it, apparently.)
I reckon if the bike is out-of-warranty, then the "excessive" precautions are moot.

 

[jasonsargonautalis_imp]

First, are you building a bare wheel? Or re-installing one with the rotors, bearings, etc installed?

If reinstalling parts, you could use the old bearings if necessary, but the disk bolts should be new ones. Reinstalling the old ones have been known to sheer off when re-torquing them. Then fun starts.
And—
The disk spring washers, springs and collars should be replaced also so as to ensure the disk floats properly.
Failure to do so could lead to brake binding as a member found out.

The caliper bolts are ALOC bolts. That means the bolt comes with a locking compound on it and are one-time use. OR, put your own thread locker on it and torque to spec. That is what I do based on my dealer saying they do that.

If you are installing bearing, read the instructions a bunch of times. You can’t just bang them in and be done. They have to be seated correctly and not bind the spacer tube in there. Someone else may chime in on this as I haven’t done this job yet.

Ugh that's a massive pain. So yeah these are the bent up wheels that are going out to be re-shaped. The person I'm talking to has asked for the rotors to be uninstalled for reshaping. The bearings feel fine on the bike but I'll have a better idea once the wheel is uninstalled. If I get them off, and the bearings are trashed, I might just buy Houtman's wheels. I suspected the rotor bolts would need replacement but the rest of it is a surprise.

The bolt collars in particular are shockingly expensive ($10.50/ea?!). Is there a better place to look for parts than Partzilla?

I'm comfortable putting threadlocker on the caliper bolts. I have blue for sure and I don't mind buying red, if need be.

Honda is probably compelled to be very conservative and specify a lot of part replacement, assuming nothing about the condition of the used parts and the issues remarked by Popgun. This may help keep their corporate lawyers idle.

This is what my assumption is on a lot of their replacement suggestions. I've talked to Honda techs in the past that say they don't replace a lot of parts Honda says to put as new because it's overkill. (e.g. You're supposed to replace the gasket for the fuel line every time you disconnect it, apparently.)

GO, the phrase "an abundance of caution" comes to mind. And as Popgun says, it depends what you're doing. If you are powdercoating the wheels, it's not a bad idea to replace the bearings and seals but, again, not mandatory.

New caliper and rotor bolts come with a "locking" adhesive, but could be re-used with a proper amount of locking adhesive. But lacking the proper type adhesive, someone might use silicone sealant, super-glue, anti-sieze compound, or nothing at all.

Not using the correct locking agent impacts the torque reading, at the least. So bolt replacement is the idiot-proof solution.

According to the manual, the washer, spring, and collar for the discs do not have to be replaced.

So this is what I initially thought based on the graphic on 12-18 [uploaded a scan here]. However the graphic on page 12-19 [[url=https://i.imgur.com/CNk44rw.jpg]scan here] implies that the bolt, spring, collar, and washer all need to be replaced by putting the [NEW] symbol by "[2]/[4]/[5]/[6]". Do you think this is just a lack of clarity on Honda's part?

I have half a mind to track down one of those Honda certified techs I used to know and ask.

I called a bunch of service departments - consensus is bolts for the front and rear and rear pulser ring bolts all definitely need replaced (which i knew). They said it's probably wise to replace the dust seals on the front, left seal on the rear, and o-ring on the rear. Everything else would have to be based on part condition and they can't advise me over the phone on that.

First, are you building a bare wheel? Or re-installing one with the rotors, bearings, etc installed?

If reinstalling parts, you could use the old bearings if necessary, but the disk bolts should be new ones. Reinstalling the old ones have been known to sheer off when re-torquing them. Then fun starts.
And—
The disk spring washers, springs and collars should be replaced also so as to ensure the disk floats properly.
Failure to do so could lead to brake binding as a member found out.

The caliper bolts are ALOC bolts. That means the bolt comes with a locking compound on it and are one-time use. OR, put your own thread locker on it and torque to spec. That is what I do based on my dealer saying they do that.

If you are installing bearing, read the instructions a bunch of times. You can’t just bang them in and be done. They have to be seated correctly and not bind the spacer tube in there. Someone else may chime in on this as I haven’t done this job yet.

Ugh that's a massive pain. So yeah these are the bent up wheels that are going out to be re-shaped. The person I'm talking to has asked for the rotors to be uninstalled for reshaping. The bearings feel fine on the bike but I'll have a better idea once the wheel is uninstalled. If I get them off, and the bearings are trashed, I might just buy Houtman's wheels. I suspected the rotor bolts would need replacement but the rest of it is a surprise.

The bolt collars in particular are shockingly expensive ($10.50/ea?!). Is there a better place to look for parts than Partzilla?

I'm comfortable putting threadlocker on the caliper bolts. I have blue for sure and I don't mind buying red, if need be.

Honda is probably compelled to be very conservative and specify a lot of part replacement, assuming nothing about the condition of the used parts and the issues remarked by Popgun. This may help keep their corporate lawyers idle.

This is what my assumption is on a lot of their replacement suggestions. I've talked to Honda techs in the past that say they don't replace a lot of parts Honda says to put as new because it's overkill. (e.g. You're supposed to replace the gasket for the fuel line every time you disconnect it, apparently.)

GO, the phrase "an abundance of caution" comes to mind. And as Popgun says, it depends what you're doing. If you are powdercoating the wheels, it's not a bad idea to replace the bearings and seals but, again, not mandatory.

New caliper and rotor bolts come with a "locking" adhesive, but could be re-used with a proper amount of locking adhesive. But lacking the proper type adhesive, someone might use silicone sealant, super-glue, anti-sieze compound, or nothing at all.

Not using the correct locking agent impacts the torque reading, at the least. So bolt replacement is the idiot-proof solution.

According to the manual, the washer, spring, and collar for the discs do not have to be replaced.

So this is what I initially thought based on the graphic on 12-18 [[url=https://i.imgur.com/AZ3xUcn.jpg]uploaded a scan here]. However the graphic on page 12-19 [[url=https://i.imgur.com/CNk44rw.jpg]scan here] implies that the bolt, spring, collar, and washer all need to be replaced by putting the [NEW] symbol by "[2]/[4]/[5]/[6]". Do you think this is just a lack of clarity on Honda's part?

I have half a mind to track down one of those Honda certified techs I used to know and ask.

This is what my assumption is on a lot of their replacement suggestions. I've talked to Honda techs in the past that say they don't replace a lot of parts Honda says to put as new because it's overkill. (e.g. You're supposed to replace the gasket for the fuel line every time you disconnect it, apparently.)
I reckon if the bike is out-of-warranty, then the "excessive" precautions are moot.

Seems like that's the side they want to err on, yeah.

 

[pekingduck]

GO, the phrase "an abundance of caution" comes to mind. And as Popgun says, it depends what you're doing. If you are powdercoating the wheels, it's not a bad idea to replace the bearings and seals but, again, not mandatory.

New caliper and rotor bolts come with a "locking" adhesive, but could be re-used with a proper amount of locking adhesive. But lacking the proper type adhesive, someone might use silicone sealant, super-glue, anti-sieze compound, or nothing at all.

Not using the correct locking agent impacts the torque reading, at the least. So bolt replacement is the idiot-proof solution.

According to the manual, the washer, spring, and collar for the discs do not have to be replaced.

[/QUOTE]
So this is what I initially thought based on the graphic on 12-18 [uploaded a scan here]. However the graphic on page 12-19 [[url=https://i.imgur.com/CNk44rw.jpg]scan here] implies that the bolt, spring, collar, and washer all need to be replaced by putting the [NEW] symbol by "[2]/[4]/[5]/[6]". Do you think this is just a lack of clarity on Honda's part?

I have half a mind to track down one of those Honda certified techs I used to know and ask.
[/QUOTE]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The illustration shows the "new" icon as a general warning that certain parts within the illustration need to be replaced. In this case, only the bolts[6] and dust seal [7]need replacement. Yes, they could have separated the [5] from the [6] better. Or just an oversight on the editors' part.
The text next to the illustration (my underline and bold) reads:
"Install the washers [2], brake disc [3], springs [4] and collars [5] onto the wheel hub with new brake disc bolts [6]".

 

[jasonsargonautalis_imp]

GO, the phrase "an abundance of caution" comes to mind. And as Popgun says, it depends what you're doing. If you are powdercoating the wheels, it's not a bad idea to replace the bearings and seals but, again, not mandatory.

New caliper and rotor bolts come with a "locking" adhesive, but could be re-used with a proper amount of locking adhesive. But lacking the proper type adhesive, someone might use silicone sealant, super-glue, anti-sieze compound, or nothing at all.

Not using the correct locking agent impacts the torque reading, at the least. So bolt replacement is the idiot-proof solution.

According to the manual, the washer, spring, and collar for the discs do not have to be replaced.

So this is what I initially thought based on the graphic on 12-18 [uploaded a scan here]. However the graphic on page 12-19 [[url=https://i.imgur.com/CNk44rw.jpg]scan here] implies that the bolt, spring, collar, and washer all need to be replaced by putting the [NEW] symbol by "[2]/[4]/[5]/[6]". Do you think this is just a lack of clarity on Honda's part?

I have half a mind to track down one of those Honda certified techs I used to know and ask.
[/QUOTE]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The illustration shows the "new" icon as a general warning that certain parts within the illustration need to be replaced. In this case, only the bolts[6] and dust seal [7]need replacement. Yes, they could have separated the [5] from the [6] better. Or just an oversight on the editors' part.
The text next to the illustration (my underline and bold) reads:
"Install the washers [2], brake disc [3], springs [4] and collars [5] onto the wheel hub with new brake disc bolts [6]".
[/QUOTE]
Yeah, despite what the text says, and the graphic on 12-8 indicates, that lack of clarity in the separation is what made me question everything. I've run across a few ambiguously worded repair manuals, or instructions, that I've misinterpreted over the years. Just didn't want to take that chance with something as important as the brakes.

After investigatinog with the service techs I feel comfortable just replacing the bolts and dust seals.

 

[jimgl3_imp]

you sure as _______ better replace the disc bolts (rotor bolts) or you may break one off like I did!