How hard to brake to activate ABS

[the Ferret]

Last night I was out riding. Two lane road, running between 55 and 60. I spot a whitetail fawn on the opposite side of the road facing away looking back over it's shoulder. As I approach it takes off running away from me and away from the road. All of a sudden it loops, turns hard right and comes running across the road right in front of me. I hit the brakes as hard as I have hit any brakes and managed to miss the critter by maybe 3 feet. Not particularly a big deal because if you ride enough things like this happen, critters, cars pulling out of side streets, people backing out of drives, someone pulling a wide turn out of a parking lot into your lane. These are common occurances. Having lots of experience and faith in your ability to handle hard braking situations keeps you alive. So after a " dang, that was close, stupid deer" exclamation in my head it didn't bother me any more. Continue the ride at the previous pace.

Except... A mile or two up the road I thought hey, I didn't feel the ABS didn't kick in.(the DLX has ABS). It was a full on panic stop, but I never felt the ABS cycle. This is the second time that it has happened to me. I reported on the last event last year, when I came around a curve to find a stopped school bus with 3 cars stopped behind it, and I had to slam them on. Foot on the pedal, ankle aiming down, 4 fingers on the brake lever squeezing that baby for all I was worth. Luckily I got stopped in time. Either it is very transparent in practice or it just didnt kick in. I can't imagine how hard you would have to apply the brakes to make it cycle.

The only other explanation I can come up with is that I have a butt load of skill and have the ability to brake just up to the point of the ABS kicking in. Maximum braking up to the point of wheel lock up without going over the edge. Don't know that I can claim possessing that amount of skill.

Question is, has anyone else braked hard enough to make their ABS kick in? Could you feel it? What did it feel like? Conversely has anyone else braked extremely hard and felt their ABS should have kicked in but didn't feel it?

 

[memphismike_imp]

Maybe only once on the GoldWing. I have non-ABS CB1100. It seemed to activate more when I really hit the Rear Brake pedal...It kind of shook and vibrated quite a bit. However..as an experienced rider I am continually using/applying both front-rear to make a very smooth abrutt stop. Like you..it seems if you are looking out for things like this you do not over-react on braking to engage the ABS!

 

[Capo]

I've had it kick in on other bikes (non-ABS CB) but it's rare. Modern tires and brakes, on good roads, generally will prevent the wheels locking up, even in seemingly rapid deceleration. Try a track day, you'd be surprised how little ABS kicks in, even on extreme braking.

Since rear wheels tend to lock up more readily on motorcycles, you'll feel it more often when jamming the pedal, or on dirt roads and the like. I had it happen today on a fire road on the Tiger 800, just some pulsing.

 

[kmoney_imp]

I've activated the rear ABS on my CB, to the point that I can feel the pedal pulse under my foot like it would on a car. On the front, I've never managed to get the same feeling. I've definitely braked hard enough to get the front wheels to begin to lock up (with all the weight shifted forward due to my clip-ons I can lift the back tire an inch or so off the ground under full braking) and I've never actually felt it kick in.

The bike is typical Honda -- decent components mix and matched and engineered enough to work way better than they have the right to. I wouldn't be surprised if they actually did manage to make the ABS so transparent you can't actually notice it.

 

[BestStandard_imp]

https://rideapart.com/articles/motorcycle-abs-work?page=3

Honda changed the ABS system in '14 for the DLX. Mine comes to a quick smooth stop when braking very hard, without tire squeal or pedal/lever pulsing. See page 3 of the article in the attached link, sounds like the latest systems for bikes no longer pulse.

 

[LongRanger_imp]

It sounds like you've mastered the art of threshold breaking. Although you couldn't detect your ABS activating, neither did you report your brakes locking up. That speaks volumes about your braking skills. Had the pavement been wet, or had your actions been less controlled, I imagine your experience would have been different. ABS is great in those cases.

 

[Hiram E. Varona_imp]

About a year ago I was on what is known as "Parameter Road" that follows the fence that is along the "parameter" of the runways at Miami International. As I was following a right hand curb, a blue Honda sedan that was on the left lane just merged in front of me and began breaking about four feet from me. I slammed my brakes and for the first time I felt the "pulsations" of the anti skid system (ABS) in the CB 1100. As it turned out the lady that was driving had decided to come to the right lane in order to let her "passenger" out of the car. I was forced to return home for a fresh new pair of underwear and fresh jeans. Even though the "pucker" reflex had been very strong, it was no match for the fear that I experienced. The brakes worked great! After a shower and some meditation I was good as new.

 

[the Ferret]

https://rideapart.com/articles/motorcycle-abs-work?page=3

Honda changed the ABS system in '14 for the DLX. Mine comes to a quick smooth stop when braking very hard, without tire squeal or pedal/lever pulsing. See page 3 of the article in the attached link, sounds like the latest systems for bikes no longer pulse.

Fascinating article.... Thanks for posting.

 

[Chapomis_imp]

About a year ago I was on what is known as "Parameter Road" that follows the fence that is along the "parameter" of the runways at Miami International. As I was following a right hand curb, a blue Honda sedan that was on the left lane just merged in front of me and began breaking about four feet from me. I slammed my brakes and for the first time I felt the "pulsations" of the anti skid system (ABS) in the CB 1100. As it turned out the lady that was driving had decided to come to the right lane in order to let her "passenger" out of the car. I was forced to return home for a fresh new pair of underwear and fresh jeans. Even though the "pucker" reflex had been very strong, it was no match for the fear that I experienced. The brakes worked great! After a shower and some meditation I was good as new.

I guess the "Anti Skid System" only works for the bike and not the rider

 

[Ulvetanna_imp]

Good question, sir.

Hard to really know just where it would activate; go ride on a dirt road and test the system. Then you'll be able to see if it works.

The only ABS bike I have pulses although the brake(s) need to be applied pretty firmly before that happens.

I usually turn it off.

The other indicator is, did your tires skid? If not, either you were not to the threshold or it worked in a seamless, transparent way.

Regarding the article on Rideapart, it made statements in a broad sense about improvements in motorcycle ABS but didn't specify whether that technology was used in a particular motorcycle. ABS systems still vary widely.

The type of ABS discussed is used for some models of the CBR1000RR. Honda does not state anywhere that other models use it.

Here's a link to the article published by Honda about Electronically Controlled Combined ABS.

ECC ABS is a "brake-by-wire" system which works just as a RbW system works. The brake lever is simply attached to a transducer that conveys to the braking ECU the kind of pressure the rider has applied. The actually pressure to the master cylinder(s) is applied by a type of servo-motor. There is no direct connection between the rider and the brakes. I am fairly certain no other model than the CBR1000RR has this system. In fact, I think it is not even available in the United States.
[url=http://ashonbikes.com/content/honda-c-abs]Another great article on ECC ABS by Kevin Ash.
[url=http://www.throttlequest.com/2011/02/hondas-combined-abs.html]And yet another very good article discussing the drawbacks of ABS and why certain types of ABS are not used on certain kinds of motorcycles.

 

[the Ferret]

Ulve.. If you are talking to me, I haven't skidded a tire in years, not since I came around a curve and skidded my way in between 4 deer standing in the middle of the road on my old 750 Nighthawk with drum rear brake. Suprised all of us! However coming from a motocross background I just let up pressure on the rear while counter sterering into the direction of skid and went straight thru them. Could have touched one on each side. Could clearly hear their hooves on the asphalt as they tried scrambling off the roadway. Fun time.

Btw while taking the ferry across the river with my son on our ride yesterday I asked him about the ABS on his new FJ-09, and explained my situation. He said he came around a curve last week and a deer was darting across the road as he exited the turn and he also applied the brakes very hard without his ABS kicking in when he thought maybe it should have. So maybe the article is on to something about the new ABS systems. This is my first bike with ABS so I learned all my braking technique PRE-ABS therefor don't know what to expect lol

It's good to know how to brake hard here in the country with all the deer we have out morning, noon and night.

 

[Ulvetanna_imp]

Ulve.. If you are talking to me, I haven't skidded a tire in years, not since I came around a curve and skidded my way in between 4 deer standing in the middle of the road on my old 750 Nighthawk with drum rear brake. Suprised all of us! However coming from a motocross background I just let up pressure on the rear while counter sterering into the direction of skid and went straight thru them. Could have touched one on each side. Could clearly hear their hooves on the asphalt as they tried scrambling off the roadway. Fun time.

Btw while taking the ferry across the river with my son on our ride yesterday I asked him about the ABS on his new FJ-09, and explained my situation. He said he came around a curve last week and a deer was darting across the road as he exited the turn and he also applied the brakes very hard without his ABS kicking in when he thought maybe it should have. So maybe the article is on to something about the new ABS systems. This is my first bike with ABS so I learned all my braking technique PRE-ABS therefor don't know what to expect lol

It's good to know how to brake hard here in the country with all the deer we have out morning, noon and night.

Yes, I went through the same learning curve. My F800GS has ABS, and I wanted to find out where it kicked in. It came into play much sooner than I expected on pavement. I also jumped onto some smooth dirt and got it to kick in a few times. It's very disconcerting. The rapid pulsation, more like a grinding, at the lever really does cause one to release it. I actually disconnected the ABS so it is always off. It can be turned off but that needs to be done with every ignition cycle, and sometimes I forget.

A couple of times I forgot to turn it off and it kicked in unexpectedly. The rear especially does this when the weight is transferred to the front under hard braking if one is trailing the rear, which I always do on the street. It's just the way these things are programmed.

I know you raced MX so I am not very worried about your good judgment (lol) but I'd be interested to hear of anyone's experience of trying the brakes on loose surfaces, if anyone's done so.

However, please don't go out and do it just to add comments to this thread unless you are darn sure about yourself...already had enough threads about guys throwing these things down the road in the last couple of days.

Personally I think you are just good on the brakes; I am quite certain the CB1100 does not have the "brake by wire" system offered by Honda in the EU. It just has the old-fashioned kind.

Ulve.. If you are talking to me, I haven't skidded a tire in years, not since I came around a curve and skidded my way in between 4 deer standing in the middle of the road on my old 750 Nighthawk with drum rear brake. Suprised all of us! However coming from a motocross background I just let up pressure on the rear while counter sterering into the direction of skid and went straight thru them. Could have touched one on each side. Could clearly hear their hooves on the asphalt as they tried scrambling off the roadway. Fun time.

Btw while taking the ferry across the river with my son on our ride yesterday I asked him about the ABS on his new FJ-09, and explained my situation. He said he came around a curve last week and a deer was darting across the road as he exited the turn and he also applied the brakes very hard without his ABS kicking in when he thought maybe it should have. So maybe the article is on to something about the new ABS systems. This is my first bike with ABS so I learned all my braking technique PRE-ABS therefor don't know what to expect lol

It's good to know how to brake hard here in the country with all the deer we have out morning, noon and night.

I don't recommend this but as I mentioned a while back, I regularly practice braking on the pavement until the front tire howls and the rear skids slightly. Occasionally the front will lock, but only for a few milliseconds until I release the lever (this is on non-ABS bikes). I have yet to get the CB1100 (non ABS) to the point of anything beyond the front tire howling. The rear will not skid unless the front is carrying almost 100 percent of the weight, which is hard to do on that bike because of the very long wheelbase and weight.

The front tire really compresses under braking and the contact patch expands dramatically, and if you consider that along with the far greater grip that tires have now, hard braking without skidding is much more likely even without ABS for a skilled rider (which I am sure both you and your son are).

Maybe if someone took the bike onto a patch of smooth dirt and stomped the rear brake...? I know a few members have taken their bikes "off pavement" and at least one fitted knobbies. Let's hear it from the CB1100 ADV crowd here.

 

[the Ferret]

I know on my last Honda car, a Civic 5 speed with ABS the system a tivated pretty easily and the pedal would go up and down, it would make terrible grinding noises off and on, I hated hearing and feeling it, but was happy it was doing its job. Thought it would feel somewhat the same on the bike.

 

[Ulvetanna_imp]

I know on my last Honda car, a Civic 5 speed with ABS the system a tivated pretty easily and the pedal would go up and down, it would make terrible grinding noises off and on, I hated hearing and feeling it, but was happy it was doing its job. Thought it would feel somewhat the same on the bike.

You are just that good, my man!

 

[ChipBeck_imp]

Mick,

Braking hard will not activate an ABS system. Only impending wheel lock up will activate it and depending on the road surface that could be very light braking. The system is constantly comparing front and rear wheel speeds and rate of rotational change. Braking really hard doesn't come into play. If you were driving on an ice covered road and applied very light braking your ABS would activate the moment one of your two wheels started to slide.

My CB doesn't have ABS but Charley's Ducati does and on a dry paved road I can brake to the point of lifting the rear wheel off the ground without the ABS coming into play. But on a loose dirt road it comes on under light braking as soon as I lock a wheel. It took several tries for me to get up the nerve to try to lock the front wheel on a dirt road at about 15 mph. I had both feet off the pegs to try to catch myself if I started to go down. But I finally did it and the ABS worked as advertised. Very notisable pulsing and the front tire would not lock. Same with the rear. Unless you lock a wheel which is really hard to do on dry pavement your ABS will not activate. And FWIW, if it did you would have hit that deer as ABS works by releasing the brake at very short intervals (several times a second) which increases stopping distance.

Many drivers and riders think that ABS will shorten stopping distance but that's not the case and it's not what ABS is for. The function of ABS it to prevent the loss of control that occurs when a wheel locks. Cheers.

Chip

 

[LongRanger_imp]

Yep, Chip is exactly correct. Good stuff.

 

[the Ferret]

I would have liked to seen Chip, riding Charley's Ducati with legs splayed like outriggers thinking, " OK...I'm going to do this! " lol

 

[Cormanus]

Nah, Ferret, this is a man who has been bungy jumping.

 

[redbirds_imp]

Pamela's V-strom has ABS and I have felt it work at the rear brake riding out on our dirt road. She recalls having made a few hard stops on pavement but ABS never engaged.

What really matters is not how hard you brake but the traction afforded by the surface you're riding on.

 

[the Ferret]

Nah, Ferret, this is a man who has been bungy jumping.

:rofl: actually if you know about Chip...testing ABS and bungie jumping are WAY down the list of dangerous stuff he does. You should watch some of his plane videos sometime.