Harley Livewire - who cares?

[pekingduck]

i'd take a zero anyday over that thing. having ridden a few they are ok, and they certainly look more modern and flow better (opinion).

I certainly have issues with the company. they havent r&d'd anything noteworthy for decades. everything is massively over priced, and they sell strictly on false nostalgia, so many of the components are from asia its ridiculous. they could have made them here but nope.

as far as ford goes, ford has been a global company for many many decades, and they have done a huge amount of development, same as GM. the reason they dropped sedans in the us is nobody was buying them, but they are alive and well in the world market, make no doubt.

liking a company strictly because its american is kinda pointless. I mean, look at indian. they actually are innovating and filling that nich quite well. they deserve the respect for moving forward in that market, even though its polaris...

willie g had a good run selling a lifestyle, but he dragged it out way too long out of complacency and permanently damaged the name. His ancestors would be rolling in their graves, as they were FOCUSED on innovation, HD lost their way. Maybe they can be reborn, like triumph, indian, etc. But i think it needs to die before it gets new life down the road.

with all the resources HD had, they should have been trying to develop the e bike 15 years ago, no excuses there. and those 'made in india' liquid cooled 500 & 750s they released a few years ago, while decent bikes, were basically copies of the old mid 80's honda shadows and BOMBED sales wise.

the examples above are the reason that it needs to die, they need to clear out the management and get some forward thinkers in there.

rant off.

I agree with what you say, but should point out that the US companies couldn't make a decent sedan since the '70s. Taurus, Tempo, Malibu, Cavalier, K-cars? All gone. 30 year old Corollas and Civics? Still rolling.

So what are young people buying as first new cars? Honda Accords and Civics, Toyota Camrys and Corollas, Nissan Altimas and Sentras, Hyundai Sonatas, Kia Optimas. (Plus Audis and BMWs)

And what brands will their future cars be? Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Hyundai, and Kia. Once they are used to the build quality, and most importantly, reliability, they aren't likely to switch.

Those $40-60K + Ford, GM and FCA trucks and SUVs are mostly bought by folks in their late 40s to mid-60s. See where this is going?

 

[SportsterDoc]

i'd take a zero anyday over that thing. having ridden a few they are ok, and they certainly look more modern and flow better (opinion).

I certainly have issues with the company. they havent r&d'd anything noteworthy for decades. everything is massively over priced, and they sell strictly on false nostalgia, so many of the components are from asia its ridiculous. they could have made them here but nope.

as far as ford goes, ford has been a global company for many many decades, and they have done a huge amount of development, same as GM. the reason they dropped sedans in the us is nobody was buying them, but they are alive and well in the world market, make no doubt.

liking a company strictly because its american is kinda pointless. I mean, look at indian. they actually are innovating and filling that nich quite well. they deserve the respect for moving forward in that market, even though its polaris...

willie g had a good run selling a lifestyle, but he dragged it out way too long out of complacency and permanently damaged the name. His ancestors would be rolling in their graves, as they were FOCUSED on innovation, HD lost their way. Maybe they can be reborn, like triumph, indian, etc. But i think it needs to die before it gets new life down the road.

with all the resources HD had, they should have been trying to develop the e bike 15 years ago, no excuses there. and those 'made in india' liquid cooled 500 & 750s they released a few years ago, while decent bikes, were basically copies of the old mid 80's honda shadows and BOMBED sales wise.

the examples above are the reason that it needs to die, they need to clear out the management and get some forward thinkers in there.

rant off.

Not "everything". Compare prices on a CB1100 stator versus one for a Sportster...or other common maintenance items.

I lost interest in H-D when the standard height Sportster was discontinued, but remain a post-ironhead EVO Sportster (1986-2003) fan.

 

[GoldOxide_imp]

It could help if HD got back to its roots and develop for a purpose: Alternative, economical and fun transportation.

GM did it by putting faith into Saturn and got the division into the black before business ultimately pulled the plug. Producing cars is a hard business, as Elon Musk has said on many occasions. I gotta think rolling out a smart line of bike transportation is less risky. Just my 2 cents.

 

[SportsterDoc]

I paid $7,000 ($7,700 list) for a New Triumph Bonneville in 2012.
Supurb build quality, over 112 MPH from 865cc parallel twin.
Left it stock other than blocking air induction and snorkle removal.
Almost as narrow as a Sportster.
And the local dealer had a touring seat for it...but I should have bought that seat BEFORE I rode it 300 miles across the desert.
I think 2013 was last of air cooled.

 

[pekingduck]

M in SC wrote:

i disagree with the demographic on trucks and suvs. just look at them in traffic & whos driving. guy i work with is on his second new king cab f150, hes 37. 1st one was wrecked.

The market share of trucks and SUVs is certainly increasing, at the expense of minivans and sedans, but it still is a huge market. Chrysler (FCA) makes the the only US minivan. Most of the SUVs are Japanese or Korean. The European designed Ford Transits have taken over the commercial van market. The US only really dominates in heavy trucks. For now.

The point I was trying to make about younger drivers was that for most, their first cars, new or used, was with Japanese or Korean sedans. It's a powerful influencer of brand loyalty that US manufacturers may have relinquished.

In a lifetime, how many NEW cars does a person buy? 5 or 6 or 10? Remember, manufacturers only make money on new cars.

 

[SportsterDoc]

It could help if HD got back to its roots and develop for a purpose: Alternative, economical and fun transportation.

GM did it by putting faith into Saturn and got the division into the black before business ultimately pulled the plug. Producing cars is a hard business, as Elon Musk has said on many occasions. I gotta think rolling out a smart line of bike transportation is less risky. Just my 2 cents.

2004 up gained weight after motor mounts rubberized and I do not like the handlebars, but the Sportster Roadster is
76 ft lbs torque at only 3,750 RPM
551 lbs dry / 571 lbs wet

Lean angles that EXCEED 30 degrees

https://www.harley-davidson.com/us/en/motorcycles/2019/sportster/roadster.html

Not all Harleys are Road Kings

 

[pekingduck]

I agree that most new car dealers make most of their from service, but it's mostly from warranty work, both factory and aftermarket. The other gold mine is a fixed-term rental, better known as leasing.

 

[the Ferret]

m in c ....What is the difference functionally between a Buick Tour X and a Subaru Forester or Outback , or a Honda CRV, or a Rav 4 Toyota for that matter?

 

[the Ferret]

Yea I can see after watching the video how it's more a sedan than an SUV

"with it's price of under $40K makes it a value in the luxury wagon class"

Holy cow, I can't get used to cars costing $40K

on the bright side it's just a few thou more than a Livewire lol

 

[pekingduck]

m in c ....What is the difference functionally between a Buick Tour X and a Subaru Forester or Outback , or a Honda CRV, or a Rav 4 Toyota for that matter?

The smaller SUVs you list are a bit higher off the ground than a sedan, so for shorter than average drivers, it's a challenge getting in.

Wagons like the Buick TourX and Ford Flex are car height, with a broader cargo area surface. Cargo volume doesn't matter, it's the floor area. Dogs don't stack well.

More importantly, they have a lower cargo load height, so smaller and/or older dogs can jump in more easily. Having to lift an older 50-100 pound dog up into an SUV gets old fast. Folding dog ramps have become a very popular accessory for SUV owners.

 

[GoldOxide_imp]

Yea I can see after watching the video how it's more a sedan than an SUV

"with it's price of under $40K makes it a value in the luxury wagon class"

Holy cow, I can't get used to cars costing $40K

on the bright side it's just a few thou more than a Livewire lol

We are slaves to our carriages. :-/

 

[the Ferret]

m in c ....What is the difference functionally between a Buick Tour X and a Subaru Forester or Outback , or a Honda CRV, or a Rav 4 Toyota for that matter?

The smaller SUVs you list are a bit higher off the ground than a sedan, so for shorter than average drivers, it's a challenge getting in.

Wagons like the Buick TourX and Ford Flex are car height, with a broader cargo area surface. Cargo volume doesn't matter, it's the floor area. Dogs don't stack well.

More importantly, they have a lower cargo load height, so smaller and/or older dogs can jump in more easily. Having to lift an older 50-100 pound dog up into an SUV gets old fast. Folding dog ramps have become a very popular accessory for SUV owners.

The smaller SUVs you list are a bit higher off the ground than a sedan, so for shorter than average drivers, it's a challenge getting in.

Wagons like the Buick TourX and Ford Flex are car height, with a broader cargo area surface. Cargo volume doesn't matter, it's the floor area. Dogs don't stack well.

More importantly, they have a lower cargo load height, so smaller and/or older dogs can jump in more easily. Having to lift an older 50-100 pound dog up into an SUV gets old fast. Folding dog ramps have become a very popular accessory for SUV owners.

All makes perfect sense PD.

My wife is 5'4 but she has had a replacement hip and 2 replacement knees and it's easier for her to get in an out of a small SUV where she can just back up to the seat, put her tush on the edge, and swing her legs in and out, rather than squatting to get in and out of a normal car.

 

[pekingduck]

As we, I mean me, get older, it becomes harder to climb in and out of regular sedans and coupes. Back in the day, we could pack 5 people in a '78 Civic hatchback with no problem. Now these smaller SUVs are so much easier to get in and out of, and thus, the appeal.

When the PT Cruiser and Scion xBs came out, they were targeted at millennials, but older drivers found them easier to get into, and the PT Cruiser at least became known as a grandpa's car, so kids never bought them. They don't even want to be seen in them.

 

[ChipBeck_imp]

Yes, Harley Davidson and Ford are symbols of America, and for decades, they capitalized on their name and their image, not their R&D. Harley Davidson made their money on big twins, and only now that their market is shrinking, they react.

Ford, like GM and FCR put all their effort into high-profit trucks and SUVs and Mustangs, then found they were un-competitive in the family car class and have pretty much abandoned it. No sedans, and only Chrysler makes mini-vans.

I remember the preparation for the first moon landing, and Americans were up in arms that the camera they were taking was not American, but an off-the-shelf German Hasselblad. What, no Kodak Instamatic? No Polaroid SX-70?

It's a world economy, and competition only improves products. If you can't adapt and compete, or have only one strength, well, good luck indeed.

If we all believed that Harley Davidsons were so wonderful, we'd own one. But we voted with our wallets, and we own CB1100s.

Gentlemen,

I don't want to bust your bubble but this is demonstrably untrue. Honda and Harley Davidson are both public companies and their sales and expenses are public record. Harley Davidson spends incredible sums on R&D and considerably more than Honda does on heavyweight road bikes. The recent downturn in motorcycle sales has hit ALL makers, not just H-D. And FWIW, I did spend my money on a CB1100. But I also spent my money on two Harley Davidsons. My 21 year old Road King is worth 80% as much today as I paid for it new. My 7 year old CB1100 is worth 35% what I paid for it. And even today during this downturn, in heavyweight motorcycle sales H-D outsells Honda, Suzuki, Kawasaki, and Yamaha COMBINED. H-D has brand new engines in all of their big twins with tons of new features and the bikes are amazing. They update their big bikes a lot more often than Honda updates the Gold Wing. And people do votw with their wallets......H-D touring bikes crush the Gold Wing in sales. That's not an opinion, that's a fact. Toyota and Nissan have been trying for a decade to compete with the Ford F-150 and they get crushed every year.

The market is what it is though and if it's shrinking there isn't anything any maker can do about it. Motorcycling is shrinking just like snowboarding, rollerblading, and hunting. Kids aren't very interested in cars anymore either, many prefer Uber.

Car sales in the US are declining rapidly, SUV and truck sales are dominating so that's where Ford went. Despite making a good car Toyota Camray sales have cratered as people move away from the traditional 3 box sedan.

I own motorcycles from 6 differen't makers and cars from 4 differen't makers. I like them all. And that competition makes them all better. But making blanket statements about some makers not spending $ on R&D and dying because of old tech just isn't true. I would argue the new H-D V-twins are the most advanced and finest V-twins made by any maker in the world today and more R&D money has been spent developing them than on the motor of any other motorcycle period. All the best.

Chip

 

[SportsterDoc]

Well stated, Chip.
What did you pay for your 1998 Road King?
Most bikes I see on the road in Arizona are H-D big twins.

 

[pekingduck]

Chip, good points made, and I do agree with many of them. HD retains the lion's share of large displacement bikes, by far. They have their place in the world and their loyal followers. But not everyone wants or can afford a Harley.

Yes, the market is shrinking, with fewer new riders, and H-D (along with BMW and Ducati) did nothing to encourage young or new riders. The Japanese have been there with small bikes from the beginning, cultivating the long term future of all motorcycling.

Who among us can say we didn't start on a Z50, or a step-through 50, or XR75? Honda made the market for most of those Harley riders. (Interestingly, HD just bought a company that makes electric balance bikes for kids - too little too late.)

On the other end, the market is maturing, and older riders are selling their Harleys. There is such a glut of used Harleys that dealers won't take them on trade, which usually prevents a new bike sale.

HD sales have declined for the last 5 years, down 8.7% last year, double digits so far this year. In the last 4 years, net revenue is down 25%, long-term debt up 30%+, stock price down half.

The point I was trying to make is that H-D has relied so much and so long on permutations of a single engine platform. It has certainly evolved and improved, but that business model, so successful and so profitable for so long, may be nearing an end, or at least a critical period.

Engineering? Yes, I'm sure they have invested a lot in refining the same engine platform, but new? Pushrods with 2-valve heads, separate transmissions, a primary drive/clutch that makes it wider than a four? Yes, finally, water cooling, at least partial. Most advanced V-twin? Not by a long shot. Just say Ducati or Aprilia or Indian Scout.

I also agree that Ford's F-150s (and Chevy/GM and Ram) trucks are equally invincible in their market, and the envy of the industry profit wise. But the Japanese are not withdrawing from that market because they are un-competitive now.

And the sedan market may have cratered for the US makers, but not for Honda and Toyota. I pulled up some numbers, and they are at worst slowing, with much of those sales are lost to their own SUVs.

(Sales are for the last ten years in 5 year periods).

2009-2013 2014-2018 increase
Honda Accord 1,535,612 1,702,882 162,270
Honda Civic 1,395,264 1,405,357 10,093
Toyota Camry 1,806,507 1,977,097 170,590
Toyota Corolla 1,445,166 1,591,742 146,576

US automakers are largely abandoning segments of the market that have most appeal to young buyers. And where the Japanese and Korean makers see a niche, they plug a new model in, expanding the line, not leaving it to pursue short-term profits.

 

[GoldOxide_imp]

When the end comes, the light bikes will prevail, particularly thumpers and twins that perform on minimal fuel and just last and last in terms of reliability. Electric vehicles won't survive unless you have access to a solar farm. I'll probably be riding my lawn mower.

 

[Houtman_imp]

I am lucky that I am too old to worry about anything !

 

[suhawk305]

I am lucky that I am too old to worry about anything !

Yes, me too Houtman!

 

[ChipBeck_imp]

Not true. The used HDs are NOT worth 80% of what you paid for them. its not 2010 anymore, those days are long gone. maybe you can sell them in arizona to the older demographic, but you kinda cant give them away in some places.

https://www.nadaguides.com/Motorcycles/2008/Harley-Davidson/FLTR-ROAD-GLIDE-1584cc/Values

theres a BIN on ebay, same model year for 11k. Numbers dont lie. Look most of them up, you'll see the same thing. Also what they actually sold for, asking price doesnt mean squat. But, to be honest, they are probably the best used value out there.

id venture the honda v twins of 30 years ago were better, or any aprilia v-twin of the mille lineage. Or any suzuki sv based one... I could go on.

Gentlemen,

First, I didn't say used H-D's are worth 80% of what you paid for them. I said my 1998 H-D Fuel Injected Road Glide Classic is worth about 80% of what I paid for it. I paid about $12,500 brand new. The bike has a little over 6000 miles on it and it's flawless. If you saw a BIN price of 11K on Ebay that's more than 80% but that price is probably wildly optimistic. unless the bike is literally brand new. But you're missing the point, what I'm saying is that H-D bikes have much better resale values than other makes. And as you say, numbers don't lie, H-D resale is leagues better than Aprilla or Honda V-Twins or Suzuki SV. That's not arguable and it's not even close. And again, I like all of those makes, but their resale is terrible.

And as to Ducati V-Twins being more highly developed than H-D V-Twins, ah.....no. I've been a Ducati owner for the last 25 years as is my son. The bikes are beautiful, interesting, and maintenance nightmares. Ducati's are like young hookers, you better like the ride because you're gonna have to put up with some problems. And I've never owned a Duck that didn't have persistent problems. I've been chasing computer problems in my 796 since it was new. Two dealers have told me they don't know how to fix it, they can't figure it out. But then again, H-D probably spends more money on R&D in a week than Ducati spends in a year. My last 4 new Harley Davidsons have not required a single warranty repair.

But hey, I'm not going to change anybodies mind here. I didn't buy my CB1100 because it's got the greatest tech or the best resale. I bought it because of the way it makes me feel and I like it's air cooled low tech vibe. When I buy my next H-D it will be a brand new Electra Glide without the water cooled heads. Heck, I just spent 20K more than the cost of a new 911 to buy a 27 year old used air-cooled 911 that's much lower tech, has 40% less horsepower and no warranty. That history, passion, and who knows what other intangibles that some here deride H-D for are the very things that drive desire for and resale values of those Milwaukee bikes and Stuttgart air cooled cars. If the latest tech is what you desire, it quickly becomes worthless as better tech replaces it.

I just don't see or feel the need to say that any bike or car maker, especially American makers, have been stupid or neglectful as regards R&D so they deserve to or probably will go bankrupt. They are all spending a TON of money on R&D and that's a fact. They might not all make it but every time we lose one, even if it's not your brand, we are all poorer for it. At least, that's my take on it.

Chip