Harley Livewire - who cares?

[LongRanger_imp]

Chip, all good points. Let's not dismiss the V-Rod's Evolution engine. It remains a very capable and technologically-advanced design. Lots of R&D was involved (in conjunction with Porsche), and it was a risk for HD to even come out with it.

I'd like to hear more about your 911!

 

[Houtman_imp]

Chip, all good points. Let's not dismiss the V-Rod's Evolution engine. It remains a very capable and technologically-advanced design. Lots of R&D was involved (in conjunction with Porsche), and it was a risk for HD to even come out with it.

I'd like to hear more about your 911!

Over the years working for an animal feed company in Wisconsin I had 5 Oldsmobile Delta 88 and loved those cars , than a Ford and 3 Chrysler Minivans , not perfect but still likeable vehicles.

 

[pekingduck]

Management makes the decision where a company goes, not R&D.

 

[apex1_imp]

I have owned Ducatis for years, and have owned many Harleys for even more years, and still own both. I have also owned dozens (literally) of other bikes. People here have made valid points though there is one point that has not yet been made. Riding a Harley-Davidson big twin is a different experience than riding another bike. It just feels very different. It would be impossible for me to describe how, but it does. Everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion, but to passionately espouse opinions about Harley-Davidsons without ever having owned one or having spent a lot of time riding one, leaves me thinking that person is not basing his or her opinion on a complete set of considerations. It is based on what is available to read off a piece of paper or a computer screen, without real life experience. I have been riding for 50 years (started at age 11) and have owned a Harley for 29 of them. Years ago there was a popular Harley t-shirt that said "If I have to explain, you wouldn't understand." I think there is some truth to that insofar as the visceral experience of riding a Harley goes. Like I said, we are all entitled to our own opinions, and this is mine.

 

[SportsterDoc]

For those who may think a H-D Sportster to be slow, check out this thread:

http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1383335

Other stats are here: Land Speed Racing Gallery

 

[Novice_imp]

Interesting discussion.

I don't know who a $30K electric bike is supposed to appeal to. Maybe to a wealthy environmentally conscious HD aficionado looking for a status symbol. Don't know how many of them are out there.

I've pretty much stopped in all of the MC shops around here that sell used bikes. I've found they are absolutely stacked with HD, to the point it's not fun anymore because it's all the same. People talk about the resale value of HD being high, and I hope so for their sake, but I have to wonder how long that will last, or if that's actually the case, just based on my observed supply of used bikes.

 

[SportsterDoc]

Other brand bashing is close to non-Existent on the Sportster forum.

I do not understand why the CB1100 cannot be fully appreciated without bashing other brands/models.

The V-Rod (1131cc) 1/4 mile time is 11.4 seconds compared to the (CB 1140cc) at 12.11 seconds.

So much quasi-comparison is done with H-D big twins, ignoring the H-D Sportster which is narrow, nimble and does NOT have a separate trans.

Yes, the H-D electric lacks visual appeal and is not practically priced, but the improvement in electric biles is logarithmic:

YouTube

I have traded/sold back to dealer 5 motorcycles since 2013.
No info on Triumph, but both Yamahas, the Moto Guzzi and CB1100 took many months for the dealer to sell, each one barely over price I received.

 

[pekingduck]

This thread began about the opinion of the HD Livewire. It has to do only with their corporate direction, and whether customers will accept and buy it. Please note that that has been no bashing of or comparisons of any cars or bikes, no criticism of any bikes or cars or customers, only focus on the company management.

My opinion was that HD's market has focused so long in one direction, it will be difficult to change. Sometimes diversification is a good thing, but it may be coming too late. I tried to draw a comparison with some car brands who have dropped some of their market segments, which could impact future customer base.

Sorry if anyone took offense, none intended. Back to Livewire.

 

[LongRanger_imp]

As you suggest, it might be too little too late, but my observation is that $30k seems like a lot of money for a highly-styled "novelty." I appreciate HD's need to amortize the R&D, but if they could find a way to produce the bike to sell for $6k-$8k, my perspective about the bike's prospects would be different. Many forum members, and the motorcycle press in general, seemed to have a bit of heartburn with the CB's high MSRP, too.

 

[pekingduck]

Many of us may remember when a 1974 Honda CB750 was the same price as a VW Beetle - $1495 - I couldn't afford either. That was also when minimum wage was $1.40/hr, a gallon of gas was the same as a loaf of bread at 27 cents. 45 years later, just add an extra zero to it all, and it won't look so bad....it's all relative.

 

[pekingduck]

thats a good point duck. out of curiosity, however, the current cars available under 15k is abysmal. (i just looked it up out of curiosity. ) who lusts for Chevrolet spark or a yaris? -ech- (of course, im sure some people said the same thing about VWs back then).

I agree, they should make the livewire a loss leader in their line. would do a LOT to help their image.

Yeah, but a crappy Chevy Spark can get you there faster, cheaper, more reliably, more comfortably, won't leak oil or gas (or possibly catch fire), will go 100k miles with minor maintenance, has airbags, heater, radio, and air conditioning......:dodgy:

 

[GoldOxide_imp]

Interesting discussion.

I don't know who a $30K electric bike is supposed to appeal to. Maybe to a wealthy environmentally conscious HD aficionado looking for a status symbol. Don't know how many of them are out there.

I've pretty much stopped in all of the MC shops around here that sell used bikes. I've found they are absolutely stacked with HD, to the point it's not fun anymore because it's all the same. People talk about the resale value of HD being high, and I hope so for their sake, but I have to wonder how long that will last, or if that's actually the case, just based on my observed supply of used bikes.

I never expect to get any residual value out of any dino-burning vehicle I buy - ever. They serve us, and therefore will be ground down to a nub.

I suspect antique collectibles are the exception due to their rarity and condition.

 

[Novice_imp]

I can't help but wish HD had been able to follow the BMW model for innovation. I have no doubt when BMW added the flying brick to their flat twin line some traditionalists thought it was the apocalypse. Somehow they managed to stay afloat and thrive. Today they even have one of the best I4 engines out there as far as performance goes and they still sell twins. Why HD has not been able to do that I don't know. Was it us in the market? Was it them? I don't know. I wish HD well in the future and hope things don't collapse.

 

[Cormanus]

None of us really wants any manufacturer to collapse. The less competition, the less innovation, the fewer choices, and greater cost.

 

[Houtman_imp]

Thanks for the link to the article , interesting.

 

[pekingduck]

The article said that revenue is up at HD, meaning gross sales. That includes all branding, all clothing, all licensed products too, and that is a major source of income for them. But that's not the same as profit.

 

[pekingduck]

I read it differently, but it may be that the article wasn't clear. Regardless, they made money. A matter of semantics.

 

[GoldOxide_imp]

HD must be making money since 99% of the time I only see new models on the road.

That said, on the weekend I met up with a farmer who just had his '77 HD Superglide engine/gearbox rebuilt for $15K Cdn. A very rough 'n' tumble and organically original sounding chain-driven museum beauty to be appreciated. He could of had the $15K used as a downpayment on a new HD, but instead chose to maintain his current ride and save the planet. It is alotta money for just the lump. I admire the passion.

As far as I am concerned, he can join in the pack of '70s Japanese bike owners any day for a group ride.

 

[LongRanger_imp]

HD is a public company (NYSE: HOG). Here are their results from the past year and over the past five years:

- For the year ended 12/31/2018, income from continuing operations was $531.5 million on consolidated revenue of $5.72 billion (profit margin of 9.3%). Worldwide retail sales decreased 6.1% vs. the prior year. The stock price on 12/31/2018 was $35.64, down from $51.49 on 12/31/2017 (a drop of 30.7%). The S&P 500 decreased 6.2% over the comparable 12-month period.

- For the year ended 12/31/2013, income from continuing operations was $623.9 million on consolidated revenue of $5.58 billion (profit margin of 11.2%). Worldwide retail sales increased 6.2% vs. the prior year. The stock price on 12/31/2018 was $35.64, down from $69.17 on 12/31/2013 (a drop of 48.4%) The S&P 500 increased 75.7% over the comparable 5-year period.

Unless HD's international expansion and Livewire introduction can lead to improved unit sales and profitablity, I'd suggest their best days are behind them.