Harley Livewire - who cares?

[Gone in 60]

While at the Born Free show on Saturday, there was no way that my wife and I could see all of the hundreds of bikes that were parked on the grass inside the show area before my wife said "ok, that's enough pot smoke for me, and the bikes are all looking the same to me now, can we go?"

But, of all the bikes that were there, the one that literally nobody looked at was the new Harley Livewire.

Harley had a substantial display of all of their new offerings, and making our way around handlebars and pipes, we came upon the Livewire. No ropes around it, out in the open on the grass for all the poking and prodding one would want to do. But, for the full ten minutes I stared, knelt down, poked and prodded, nobody else could give it the time of day.

My wife noticed that I was the only person who seemed to be interested in a bike that is supposed to be somewhat special. She asked "Aren't these things supposed to be a big deal?"
"Yes, they are."
"Why isn't anyone looking at it?"
"These people are traditional Harley enthusiasts. They wouldn't be interested in a Harley that doesn't make noise."
"Then who's going to buy it?"
"Probably people who will put them in collections and never ride them."
"Then why bother if nobody will ride them?"
"Marketing. But not to these people."

 

[Houtman_imp]

The Livewire is an ugly bike and it will be a millions of $$$ disaster for HD

 

[SportsterDoc]

Certainly not my style, 140 mile range (88 miles mixed riding) and $30K.
But 0-60 MPH in 3.0 seconds (CB1100 is 3.3) and another 1.9 seconds to 80 MPH.
Would like to run one locally for a few weeks.

 

[pekingduck]

I actually like the way the Livewire looks, until I get close enough to see the price tag.

And I agree, it will be/is a marketing disaster waiting to happen. Harley can only sell one thing - an air-cooled 45 degree vee-twin. They couldn't sell Buells, they couldn't sell V-Rods, and now they can't sell Big Twins because of the glut of used ones, and their base is getting older. I'd hate to be in their shoes now.

 

[the Ferret]

It is an important model for Harley Davidson, showing they are commited to the future when the current crop of riders can no longer support them. They are probably about $10k high on the Livewire, but they have never had trouble selling expensive bikes in the past ( well in the mid 70s they did, but pulled out of it) and if they are to remain vibrant in the future, they are going to have to figure a way to sell these too.

 

[misterprofessionality]

lots of automotive manufacturers have purposely made products that lose money and are not expected to sell. it's more of a demonstration than a viable product. the Bugatti Veyron, while impressive, is not a car that is going to sell well, and every one that sells (supposedly) loses money for VW. the Honda Valkyrie Rune was the same way. it was a huge loss for each one that was sold. The livewire will be the same issue. a ton of R&D to make an electric bike that is barely adequate at a price point that basically NOBODY will buy for any real use. but it has one purpse...to demonstrate Harley can change and can build something other than a street glide. the real test will be the streetfighter and the purported fully faired supersport that they're making. the adventure bike is also going to be a joke and a loss leader, but it does the same thing. it says "look. we can do this. we promise. don't give up on us."

i've never purchased a HD product, even though i have certainly spent my time in the seat of one, but I'm always willing to wait and see if they make something that gets me interested. if you asked me 2 years ago if i'd ever consider buying an Indian i'd say no way. now they make the FTR1200. my tune has changed.

to me, i care about the livewire because it says "wait and see." i'm waiting.

 

[GoldOxide_imp]

HD might do better if they made a two-seater front-wheel drive cage with a V-twin mill that was fuel efficient and very cool sounding and drive-able in winter. Of course, the challenge for them will be meeting industry standard crash safety - something they don't have to sweat over regarding motorcycles.

 

[pekingduck]

Positioning the Livewire as an image-building engineering showcase suggests they can afford to lose millions, and they can't. It doesn't draw people into their showrooms, and it isn't any breakthrough technology.

I remember walking into an H-D dealership many years ago, and asking where the Sportsters were. The salesman told me that H-D did not allow them in the same showroom as the Big Twins, and they were off in a smaller room, and the Buells were in another area. They only wanted to sell Big Twins.

Harley can't sell vertical twins, or "adventure" bikes, or off-road bikes or beginner bikes or sport bikes. Their 500 and 750 twins are not selling because they aren't big twins. They were never fully committed to diversifying, even going back to the Aermacchi days, and they are now paying the price for that.

The Livewire might be more attractive if they weren't saddled with the H-D name. I have no doubt that they have the engineering and manufacturing capability. If they had started up a separate entity, named it something like Wisconsin Electric Motorcycles, there would be less baggage. We wouldn't be asking "Why?"

Ten grand electric bikes don't sell, twenty grand electric bikes don't sell, and very few will see the value in a thirty grand one. It's not a large market now and won't be until it shows there are real advantages over existing internal-combustion bikes.

 

[Gone in 60]

It will serve its purpose. Leno loves alternative power. He’ll do a video with one in his shop, and might even bring it to The Rock Store in Malibu for a few minutes to be seen with it in public. All of the mags and websites will hail it as “finally being available”, then damn it with faint praise to keep their HD advertising dollars while trying to paint the picture that it’s an expensive toy. They’ll give one to the influential Hollywood riding elite (maybe not Keanu, he has his own brand). Maybe one or two of them will show up to an award show on one instead of a Tesla. I’ll see a few at Cars and Coffee meetups.

Then, like the GM EV1, we’ll see them in museums ten years from now as curiosities.

 

[Bheezy27403_imp]

To answer the title of the thread...nobody.

I was only impressed that the company was actually going to diversify and try to keep up. I gave them props for that in fact (for the adventure too that won't sell, yikes that thing has a face only a mother could love, but at least it's tangible). Then they went and hung a $30k price tag on it assuring that it won't sell and clearly they don't want them to. Idiots.

 

[Gone in 60]

At least they announced recently that they’re teaming up with a company in China to produce low cc, low cost bikes for the Asian market. That will provide them with income if it works, and keep them moving forward.

I had also thought about the Livewire being built under its own brand so that it could be killed at a moment’s notice if it was not providing any benefit to the Shield and Bar brand. But, with their history of doing that (Buell), maybe they figure that selling it as a Harley product shows that they are committed to innovating within their own brand and some level of commitment to the bike itself.

 

[Roper_imp]

Too little too late. Zero motorcycles has a sport bike, a commuter/standard, a (sort of) dual sport, and a supermoto. Anyone from the "younger demographic" who wants an electric motorcycle will buy a Zero for half the price of a Harley. The big 4 Japanese companies are experimenting with electric dirt bikes and are heading toward larger street bike designs. The European companies have electric scooters and are looking at larger electric bikes. Really...who's going to by a battery powered Harley?

 

[LongRanger_imp]

Now that I'm looking at the bike, I'm skeptical too. 140 mile range, $30k, little practicality. Makes you wonder how they expect to sell these in any volume considering they failed with Buell. I wish them the best. We shall see.

 

[the Ferret]

It's not a bad looking piece, although imo they could have made the orange " tank" edge parallel the ground.

Imo they also should have made them price competitive with the Zeros. $20k max. Even then, it would harley seem like a bargain (see what I did there? Lol)

 

[Gone in 60]

Cue the trombone... wha whuhhhh.

 

[GoldOxide_imp]

for some reason this reminds me of the norton rotary a little, at least in the 'engine bay'. :huh:

That is one "hairy" engine.

 

[ChipBeck_imp]

Gentlemen,

I think the Live Wire is a good looking bike. I'm not a fan of the Zero. $30K is steep but early adopters of new tech always pay a steep price to have the latest cool stuff. The first flat screen TV's cost $10K and they weren't as good as $500 sets today. I'm not a fan of electric vehicles but like it or not they are coming. The next model of the Porsche Macan SUV won't even offer a gasoline engine. Electric H-D's will get cheaper and this world will continue to change in ways I don't like.

Harley Davidson and Ford are symbols of America. It bugs me when people wish them ill. I hope American companies prosper for centuries to come. All the best.

Chip

 

[pekingduck]

Yes, Harley Davidson and Ford are symbols of America, and for decades, they capitalized on their name and their image, not their R&D. Harley Davidson made their money on big twins, and only now that their market is shrinking, they react.

Ford, like GM and FCR put all their effort into high-profit trucks and SUVs and Mustangs, then found they were un-competitive in the family car class and have pretty much abandoned it. No sedans, and only Chrysler makes mini-vans.

I remember the preparation for the first moon landing, and Americans were up in arms that the camera they were taking was not American, but an off-the-shelf German Hasselblad. What, no Kodak Instamatic? No Polaroid SX-70?

It's a world economy, and competition only improves products. If you can't adapt and compete, or have only one strength, well, good luck indeed.

If we all believed that Harley Davidsons were so wonderful, we'd own one. But we voted with our wallets, and we own CB1100s.

 

[Frulk_imp]

Bike looks good to me. At least the pics I’ve seen of it. Take it a little further in the styling department and make that orange cover look more like a peanut tank. Should be pretty easy to do. I’m with Chip on everything else.

 

[LongRanger_imp]

i'd take a zero anyday over that thing. having ridden a few they are ok, and they certainly look more modern and flow better (opinion).

I certainly have issues with the company. they havent r&d'd anything noteworthy for decades. everything is massively over priced, and they sell strictly on false nostalgia, so many of the components are from asia its ridiculous. they could have made them here but nope.

as far as ford goes, ford has been a global company for many many decades, and they have done a huge amount of development, same as GM. the reason they dropped sedans in the us is nobody was buying them, but they are alive and well in the world market, make no doubt.

liking a company strictly because its american is kinda pointless. I mean, look at indian. they actually are innovating and filling that nich quite well. they deserve the respect for moving forward in that market, even though its polaris...

willie g had a good run selling a lifestyle, but he dragged it out way too long out of complacency and permanently damaged the name. His ancestors would be rolling in their graves, as they were FOCUSED on innovation, HD lost their way. Maybe they can be reborn, like triumph, indian, etc. But i think it needs to die before it gets new life down the road.

with all the resources HD had, they should have been trying to develop the e bike 15 years ago, no excuses there. and those 'made in india' liquid cooled 500 & 750s they released a few years ago, while decent bikes, were basically copies of the old mid 80's honda shadows and BOMBED sales wise.

the examples above are the reason that it needs to die, they need to clear out the management and get some forward thinkers in there.

rant off.

CB1100?