Hard to down shift

[quail_imp]

Two times now i have had to come to a quick stop on the freeway after riding 70-80 mph for a period of time. Both times I stopped only using the brakes. When I tried to shift down through the gears to 1st while stopped while waiting to take off, the trans would hang up between gears ( I say between because the shift light looks like " - "). It was very hard to get it back down to 1st. Does anyone know why?

 

[emptysea]

Did you try rolling the bike forward a smidge?

 

[dave]

Two times now i have had to come to a quick stop on the freeway after riding 70-80 mph for a period of time. Both times I stopped only using the brakes. When I tried to shift down through the gears to 1st while stopped while waiting to take off, the trans would hang up between gears ( I say between because the shift light looks like " - "). It was very hard to get it back down to 1st. Does anyone know why?

Have you ever shifted from sixth gear into first gear on a motorcycle while at a dead stop before? Motorcycle transmissions don't work like car transmissions. Constant mesh (motorcycle) transmissions don't work like this. The gears need to be rotating to allow them to properly engage and disengage. The gears have dogs that interlock with each other and they need to be rotating to properly align the dogs.

 

[Lord Popgun]

What Dave and ES said.

 

[Ulvetanna_imp]

Two times now i have had to come to a quick stop on the freeway after riding 70-80 mph for a period of time. Both times I stopped only using the brakes. When I tried to shift down through the gears to 1st while stopped while waiting to take off, the trans would hang up between gears ( I say between because the shift light looks like " - "). It was very hard to get it back down to 1st. Does anyone know why?

Have you ever shifted from sixth gear into first gear on a motorcycle while at a dead stop before? Motorcycle transmissions don't work like car transmissions. Constant mesh (motorcycle) transmissions don't work like this. The gears need to be rotating to allow them to properly engage and disengage. The gears have dogs that interlock with each other and they need to be rotating to properly align the dogs.

Have you ever shifted from sixth gear into first gear on a motorcycle while at a dead stop before? Motorcycle transmissions don't work like car transmissions. Constant mesh (motorcycle) transmissions don't work like this. The gears need to be rotating to allow them to properly engage and disengage. The gears have dogs that interlock with each other and they need to be rotating to properly align the dogs. As with the post about the member not knowing he had his sidestand down, here again I am very surprised any more experienced riders don't understand what is going on with this.

At one point I considered posting a poll, asking riders if they did or did not downshift into every single gear as they came to a stop.

That is to say, it is possible (I have been doing it practically from day one) to shift quickly down through the gears from top to first with the clutch pulled in whilst on the brakes. But not after you've come to a stop. You need to let the clutch out a bit between every shift if you are at a complete stop.

To see anyone not aware of this technique is surprising. It's sloppy to let the clutch out after every shift when coming to a stop. You anticipate how much you need to slow down, pull the clutch in once, apply the brakes, and click down as many gears as you need before releasing the clutch again. Works perfectly.

My left foot automatically clicks down the right number of gears, it requires no thought at all any more. That ten bucks worth of attention Keith Code talks about can be spent somewhere else.

 

[CBryder_imp]

Is there the possibility of some real harm to the bike with compression braking?
I've always done to some degree with vehicles having standard transmissions, but nobody ever really mentions it on this forum.

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk

 

[the Ferret]

Unless you are high in the rev range and low in the transmission, there isn't a whole lot of compression braking on the CB, but it won't hurt it a bit.

I think books like Code's TOTW, and some of Ulva's advice is geared more toward racers and the spirited road riders that ride specific roads over and over, than the casual street rider. There are differeing techniques for a racer coming into the corner at the end of a long straight on a race track and a casual rider coming to a curve at the end of a long straight on the street, particularly if he is unfamiliar with that road. After the first lap the racer knows what to expect at the end of the straight next lap around, and if there is something unexpected there is a marshall there with a flag to warn him. SO he can come in boiling in 6 th, pull in the clutch , jam down 4 gears and exit in second, because that is the most efficient way thru that turn for the racer. For the street rider he must be more cautious, not knowing what is around the corner, so a series of downshifts may be in order, because he may be able to take that turn in fourth, but he may want to take it in third, or second, depending on what he finds when he gets there and looks through it.

I have turns I know I want to take in 3rd, one I know I want to take in second, and in those cases I will pull in the clutch and make multiple downshifts at once before letting out the clutch in the correct gear. But on unfamiliar turns, I am going to approach it more cautiously, one gear at a time until I decide which gear is the right gear for the situation as it unfolds in front of me.

Racers have the benefit of repeated practice to find shift points, brake points, tip in points, best line, maximum and minimum speed, and those points are learned over many laps. We don't always have that benefit on the street.

 

[Rocky_imp]

This "locking" of gears happens nearly every time I have to make a sudden stop (on whatever bike) and don't have time to shift down through the gears. It's quite normal due to motorcycle transmission design as has been explained.
While I'm at a stop I go though a series of clutch engagement and release all the while moving down through the gears until I get to first.
Nothing to worry about.

 

[Ulvetanna_imp]

Unless you are high in the rev range and low in the transmission, there isn't a whole lot of compression braking on the CB, but it won't hurt it a bit.

I think books like Code's TOTW, and some of Ulva's advice is geared more toward racers and the spirited road riders that ride specific roads over and over, than the casual street rider. There are differeing techniques for a racer coming into the corner at the end of a long straight on a race track and a casual rider coming to a curve at the end of a long straight on the street, particularly if he is unfamiliar with that road. After the first lap the racer knows what to expect at the end of the straight next lap around, and if there is something unexpected there is a marshall there with a flag to warn him. SO he can come in boiling in 6 th, pull in the clutch , jam down 4 gears and exit in second, because that is the most efficient way thru that turn for the racer. For the street rider he must be more cautious, not knowing what is around the corner, so a series of downshifts may be in order, because he may be able to take that turn in fourth, but he may want to take it in third, or second, depending on what he finds when he gets there and looks through it.

I have turns I know I want to take in 3rd, one I know I want to take in second, and in those cases I will pull in the clutch and make multiple downshifts at once before letting out the clutch in the correct gear. But on unfamiliar turns, I am going to approach it more cautiously, one gear at a time until I decide which gear is the right gear for the situation as it unfolds in front of me.

Racers have the benefit of repeated practice to find shift points, brake points, tip in points, best line, maximum and minimum speed, and those points are learned over many laps. We don't always have that benefit on the street.

All exactly correct.

Now, in Code's first book, since it was mentioned, IIRC he says the brakes are for slowing the bike and the engine is for accelerating.

Code used to race two-stroke bikes and in those days that wasn't even a suggestion, there was very little engine-braking from the 2-strokes.

These days, and with any four-stroke, engine braking is an absolutely critical element of riding. It can be varied by adjustments in the ECU with modern bikes, and even from one sector to another on a racetrack based on GPS or transponder position, as can engine power delivery.

If you ride in high gears, as The Ferret stated, not much engine braking there. Keep the RPM above 5K, there's ample such available.

Anyway, what he also stated about multiple downshifts is what I was discussing in my earlier post.

I learned all that stuff dirt riding which I am sure he did as well. You can either roll a bit or let the clutch out a few times and tap down if you forget to downshift whilst stopping.

Unless you are high in the rev range and low in the transmission, there isn't a whole lot of compression braking on the CB, but it won't hurt it a bit.

I think books like Code's TOTW, and some of Ulva's advice is geared more toward racers and the spirited road riders that ride specific roads over and over, than the casual street rider. There are differeing techniques for a racer coming into the corner at the end of a long straight on a race track and a casual rider coming to a curve at the end of a long straight on the street, particularly if he is unfamiliar with that road. After the first lap the racer knows what to expect at the end of the straight next lap around, and if there is something unexpected there is a marshall there with a flag to warn him. SO he can come in boiling in 6 th, pull in the clutch , jam down 4 gears and exit in second, because that is the most efficient way thru that turn for the racer. For the street rider he must be more cautious, not knowing what is around the corner, so a series of downshifts may be in order, because he may be able to take that turn in fourth, but he may want to take it in third, or second, depending on what he finds when he gets there and looks through it.

I have turns I know I want to take in 3rd, one I know I want to take in second, and in those cases I will pull in the clutch and make multiple downshifts at once before letting out the clutch in the correct gear. But on unfamiliar turns, I am going to approach it more cautiously, one gear at a time until I decide which gear is the right gear for the situation as it unfolds in front of me.

Racers have the benefit of repeated practice to find shift points, brake points, tip in points, best line, maximum and minimum speed, and those points are learned over many laps. We don't always have that benefit on the street.

I just want to point out that this is a dirt-riding technique, you could do this whilst dirt-riding, no worries, because even though, let's say, you downshifted from 6th to 3rd and were not quite precise in coming back out with the clutch, the rear tire will skid a bit whilst entering the turn, which is expected as a possibility and actually can help with corner entry. Then the throttle would be immediately picked up and perhaps the wheel spun up under power to continue the turn.

This would NEVER be done on a road race track. We always shift discretely into each gear to ensure RPM matching and maximum control. A mismatch at high engine speed and vehicle speed on pavement is very serious, either a blown engine, high-side or some kind of problem is going to ensue.

We have reference points for downshifting and you cannot really miss those when blazing down the front or back straight at 140 mph. They could be cones, or a mark on the pavement, or some other thing.

Every track day sets the cones differently so I usually use pavement marks but those change too.

 

[AzBob_imp]

Unless you are high in the rev range and low in the transmission, there isn't a whole lot of compression braking on the CB, but it won't hurt it a bit.

I think books like Code's TOTW, and some of Ulva's advice is geared more toward racers and the spirited road riders that ride specific roads over and over, than the casual street rider. There are differeing techniques for a racer coming into the corner at the end of a long straight on a race track and a casual rider coming to a curve at the end of a long straight on the street, particularly if he is unfamiliar with that road. After the first lap the racer knows what to expect at the end of the straight next lap around, and if there is something unexpected there is a marshall there with a flag to warn him. SO he can come in boiling in 6 th, pull in the clutch , jam down 4 gears and exit in second, because that is the most efficient way thru that turn for the racer. For the street rider he must be more cautious, not knowing what is around the corner, so a series of downshifts may be in order, because he may be able to take that turn in fourth, but he may want to take it in third, or second, depending on what he finds when he gets there and looks through it.

I have turns I know I want to take in 3rd, one I know I want to take in second, and in those cases I will pull in the clutch and make multiple downshifts at once before letting out the clutch in the correct gear. But on unfamiliar turns, I am going to approach it more cautiously, one gear at a time until I decide which gear is the right gear for the situation as it unfolds in front of me.

Racers have the benefit of repeated practice to find shift points, brake points, tip in points, best line, maximum and minimum speed, and those points are learned over many laps. We don't always have that benefit on the street.

All exactly correct.

Now, in Code's first book, since it was mentioned, IIRC he says the brakes are for slowing the bike and the engine is for accelerating.

Code used to race two-stroke bikes and in those days that wasn't even a suggestion, there was very little engine-braking from the 2-strokes.

These days, and with any four-stroke, engine braking is an absolutely critical element of riding. It can be varied by adjustments in the ECU with modern bikes, and even from one sector to another on a racetrack based on GPS or transponder position, as can engine power delivery.

If you ride in high gears, as The Ferret stated, not much engine braking there. Keep the RPM above 5K, there's ample such available.

Anyway, what he also stated about multiple downshifts is what I was discussing in my earlier post.

I learned all that stuff dirt riding which I am sure he did as well. You can either roll a bit or let the clutch out a few times and tap down if you forget to downshift whilst stopping.

Unless you are high in the rev range and low in the transmission, there isn't a whole lot of compression braking on the CB, but it won't hurt it a bit.

I think books like Code's TOTW, and some of Ulva's advice is geared more toward racers and the spirited road riders that ride specific roads over and over, than the casual street rider. There are differeing techniques for a racer coming into the corner at the end of a long straight on a race track and a casual rider coming to a curve at the end of a long straight on the street, particularly if he is unfamiliar with that road. After the first lap the racer knows what to expect at the end of the straight next lap around, and if there is something unexpected there is a marshall there with a flag to warn him. SO he can come in boiling in 6 th, pull in the clutch , jam down 4 gears and exit in second, because that is the most efficient way thru that turn for the racer. For the street rider he must be more cautious, not knowing what is around the corner, so a series of downshifts may be in order, because he may be able to take that turn in fourth, but he may want to take it in third, or second, depending on what he finds when he gets there and looks through it.

I have turns I know I want to take in 3rd, one I know I want to take in second, and in those cases I will pull in the clutch and make multiple downshifts at once before letting out the clutch in the correct gear. But on unfamiliar turns, I am going to approach it more cautiously, one gear at a time until I decide which gear is the right gear for the situation as it unfolds in front of me.

Racers have the benefit of repeated practice to find shift points, brake points, tip in points, best line, maximum and minimum speed, and those points are learned over many laps. We don't always have that benefit on the street.

I just want to point out that this is a dirt-riding technique, you could do this whilst dirt-riding, no worries, because even though, let's say, you downshifted from 6th to 3rd and were not quite precise in coming back out with the clutch, the rear tire will skid a bit whilst entering the turn, which is expected as a possibility and actually can help with corner entry. Then the throttle would be immediately picked up and perhaps the wheel spun up under power to continue the turn.

This would NEVER be done on a road race track. We always shift discretely into each gear to ensure RPM matching and maximum control. A mismatch at high engine speed and vehicle speed on pavement is very serious, either a blown engine, high-side or some kind of problem is going to ensue.

We have reference points for downshifting and you cannot really miss those when blazing down the front or back straight at 140 mph. They could be cones, or a mark on the pavement, or some other thing.

Every track day sets the cones differently so I usually use pavement marks but those change too.

I agree and I would never do it, but if your bike has a slipper clutch, the problem of mismatched output shaft speed to input shaft speed is moot (assuming one downshifted within the boundaries of RPM the engine can handle for the gear you downshifted to). I never bother rev-matching while downshifting on my CBR, but I only go down one gear at-a-time.

 

[the Ferret]

Well yea you'd either have to hitting the brakes hard and have a slipper clutch or in the case of going from 6th to second, you would be super hard on the brakes if you don't have the slipper, as that would be going from 140 down to maybe 50 or 60 in a short span of time, you couldn't come in at 160 and downshift 4 times and let out the clutch without all manner of bad things happening to the trans, to the tires, to stability and to the rider probably. THought that was understood.

Even on the CB going from 6 th to second would require you to scrub off massive amounts of speed before you could safely use second.

 

[emptysea]

So...what am I doing wrong or right?: I approach a turn at, say, 50mph in 5th. Pretty sharp corner with a posted 'recommended' speed of 20mph. I pull the clutch lever, drop two clicks to 3rd, apply front brake, pull clutch and drop another click to 2nd, trail off the brake and roll on throttle and exit the turn. Heck, I'm not even sure that's what I do as I type it out, though. LOL. I'll need to record myself sometime, but in the meantime, what did I screw up?

 

[the Ferret]

Uh...nothing?

 

[flynrider]

Did you try rolling the bike forward a smidge?

That works. You can also let out the clutch to the friction point and pull the lever back in. I find that a bit easier than rolling the bike.

 

[dave]

So...what am I doing wrong or right?: I approach a turn at, say, 50mph in 5th. Pretty sharp corner with a posted 'recommended' speed of 20mph. I pull the clutch lever, drop two clicks to 3rd, apply front brake, pull clutch and drop another click to 2nd, trail off the brake and roll on throttle and exit the turn. Heck, I'm not even sure that's what I do as I type it out, though. LOL. I'll need to record myself sometime, but in the meantime, what did I screw up?

For you guys who do multiple down-shifts without re-engaging the clutch between shifts: Do you blip the throttle each time before you depress the shift lever to match the engine speed with the rear wheel speed? If you don't, do you hear a lot of noise coming out of your transmission?

 

[emptysea]

I'm a blipper from way back, but i sometimes forget or feel that the revs are close enough. It's ALL feel for me. Don't ask me what the RPMs are at a particular speed/gear combination; I'm not trained enough or smart enough to keep track of that. In answer to your Q: I've never heard any unusual transmission noise at any point.

 

[Ulvetanna_imp]

So...what am I doing wrong or right?: I approach a turn at, say, 50mph in 5th. Pretty sharp corner with a posted 'recommended' speed of 20mph. I pull the clutch lever, drop two clicks to 3rd, apply front brake, pull clutch and drop another click to 2nd, trail off the brake and roll on throttle and exit the turn. Heck, I'm not even sure that's what I do as I type it out, though. LOL. I'll need to record myself sometime, but in the meantime, what did I screw up?

For you guys who do multiple down-shifts without re-engaging the clutch between shifts: Do you blip the throttle each time before you depress the shift lever to match the engine speed with the rear wheel speed? If you don't, do you hear a lot of noise coming out of your transmission?

For you guys who do multiple down-shifts without re-engaging the clutch between shifts: Do you blip the throttle each time before you depress the shift lever to match the engine speed with the rear wheel speed? If you don't, do you hear a lot of noise coming out of your transmission? No, absolutely not. No reason to do anything with the throttle. Just allow the bike to slow down a bit and click down to the next gear.

Well yea you'd either have to hitting the brakes hard and have a slipper clutch or in the case of going from 6th to second, you would be super hard on the brakes if you don't have the slipper, as that would be going from 140 down to maybe 50 or 60 in a short span of time, you couldn't come in at 160 and downshift 4 times and let out the clutch without all manner of bad things happening to the trans, to the tires, to stability and to the rider probably. THought that was understood.

Even on the CB going from 6 th to second would require you to scrub off massive amounts of speed before you could safely use second.

Things to keep in mind about shifting:

-CB1100, especially five-speed, has a fairly wide-ratio gearbox. It doesn't shift like a track bike but it does respond very well to the blip at high RPM, in the upper third of the tach. I like to ride it like this sometimes.

-Late-model production racebikes like the R1, ZX-10R (WSB champs again, way to go!) and so on have ECU control of shifting for both up/down shifts. No need to touch the clutch, the ECU matches the RPM for you. It's just not that simple though. A lot of guys think this is the bee's knees and it'll shave all kinds of time off their laps, but no. Being in the right place at the right time on the racetrack and having your reference points worked out is much more important. Once that's done and you are within a few seconds of the lap record for your kind of motorcycle, then maybe.

-1000cc MotoGP bikes have a "seamless" gearbox coupled with ECU RPM-matching, one can hear how stupidly smooth the shifting is. The clutch is never touched once out of the pits.

-True RPM matching can only be done with ride-by-wire and quickshifter. Otherwise it's either the fan or the blip.

To shift with the "blip" technique you've got to be in the upper third of the RPM range where the engine is nice and stable. It's all done by feel, and happens in a tenth of a second or so, very quickly. One does briefly roll the throttle on at the instant the clutch is released.

-The "fan" technique is done at lower RPM, one simply holds steady throttle and pulls the clutch partway in to soften the gearchange. Works great at lower engine speeds and for street riding.

The blip video. Hitting about 140 mph, upshifting to 5th, back down to 4th, then 3rd.

 

[Offroad]

I guess I'm weird, I never miss a gear coming down. I do blip the throttle and engine brake sometimes pretty hard. I never come to a complete stop without already being in 1st. I'm so used to it, I'd have a hard time changing now...plus I think I just like the sound ;-)

Also I never did like that feeling of being in too high a gear should I need to make a sudden change in velocity for any reason, whether evasive or just for fun! ;-)

 

[Ulvetanna_imp]

I guess I'm weird, I never miss a gear coming down. I do blip the throttle and engine brake sometimes pretty hard. I never come to a complete stop without already being in 1st. I'm so used to it, I'd have a hard time changing now...plus I think I just like the sound ;-)

Also I never did like that feeling of being in too high a gear should I need to make a sudden change in velocity for any reason, whether evasive or just for fun! ;-)

Riding on the street you have to be ready for anything, be in the power, for ready acceleration or deceleration.

 

[emptysea]

I guess I'm weird, I never miss a gear coming down. I do blip the throttle and engine brake sometimes pretty hard. I never come to a complete stop without already being in 1st. I'm so used to it, I'd have a hard time changing now...plus I think I just like the sound ;-)

Also I never did like that feeling of being in too high a gear should I need to make a sudden change in velocity for any reason, whether evasive or just for fun! ;-)

I have to say that I do like the sound of my Yosh exhaust when I downshift. If I'm not in 1st at a stop it's because I screwed up. I also hate that lugging feeling when I've been a gear (or two) too high.