Clutch/Brake fluid

[peterbaron]

Matt,
Honda Manual 13-14, p.9-7 - troubleshooting, all, but mostly Hard to shift and also p 9-16/slave inspection,..weaken/broken spring...have you ever unbolted/3 long bolts to slave cylinder and tested its smooth operation?
I assume no external leak.

 

[Cormanus]

I’ve no idea if this is relevant, but I find the bike can be hard to get into neutral when it’s really hot from a long run. Particularly, it seems to me it can stick in first and I have to move it or at least partially let out the clutch to be able to get it there.

 

[mattmcuomo@yahoo.com]

Matt,
Honda Manual 13-14, p.9-7 - troubleshooting, all, but mostly Hard to shift and also p 9-16/slave inspection,..weaken/broken spring...have you ever unbolted/3 long bolts to slave cylinder and tested its smooth operation?
I assume no external leak.

I inspected and cleaned the slave cylinder today. Seems to be fine. No leaks. I did find in the manual that if clutch doesn’t disengage that oil level should be checked. I’m usually up on keeping levels but maybe it’s a little low. I’m changing oil tomorrow, I’ll see how that goes. Thanks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I’ve no idea if this is relevant, but I find the bike can be hard to get into neutral when it’s really hot from a long run. Particularly, it seems to me it can stick in first and I have to move it or at least partially let out the clutch to be able to get it there.

Yeah, I get that too but I had difficulty with it on a run around the neighborhood!! I’m hoping that an oil change will help. It’s been 4000 miles so it’s time anyway. Thanks


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[peterbaron]

Practically, do not expect issue with oil level...
If you decided to change oil, drain it when warm-hot but after sitting for about 5-7 min, so heavy particles reach the bottom.
Put some oil drops - take initial, mid and final stream oil samples- on a white piece of paper, the best would be tissue paper, as this let oil soak into it, while leaving heavy particles on its top. INSPECT closely - any debris/evidence?
I think we covered clutch control system = L-side as per your precise and good feedback, tests and observation...
Just guessing and thinking of clutch itself problem, maybe normal wear ++????
You say low speed problem, this is when clutch is needed the most
Are you tough on clutch, semi slipping when: changing gears, take off, any wheelies habits ... = will cause faster wear.
Is it ongoing problem or just lately/suddenly, any related repairs prior, history if previous owner??
I assume your bike is not 2017
Keep us updated, please.
Any input from others???

 

[mattmcuomo@yahoo.com]

Practically, do not expect issue with oil level...
If you decided to change oil, drain it when warm-hot but after sitting for about 5-7 min, so heavy particles reach the bottom.
Put some oil drops - take initial, mid and final stream oil samples- on a white piece of paper, the best would be tissue paper, as this let oil soak into it, while leaving heavy particles on its top. INSPECT closely - any debris/evidence?
I think we covered clutch control system = L-side as per your precise and good feedback, tests and observation...
Just guessing and thinking of clutch itself problem, maybe normal wear ++????
You say low speed problem, this is when clutch is needed the most
Are you tough on clutch, semi slipping when: changing gears, take off, any wheelies habits ... = will cause faster wear.
Is it ongoing problem or just lately/suddenly, any related repairs prior, history if previous owner??
I assume your bike is not 2017
Keep us updated, please.
Any input from others???

Could be normal clutch wear. I am the original owner, I do ride aggressively sometimes, not doing wheelies and such but mostly lots of slow and go in traffic and high speed on freeway. This started happening probably around 30,000 mile mark or so. I’ll change/inspect oil and see what I see. Thanks for your input.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[peterbaron]

As a general info : sometimes initial clutch wear symptoms are intermittent, and when ignored, these slowly get worse to a point of no clutch (extreme). If it is just friction material wear, it usually starts slipping first. Rarely when worn, shows symptoms only when hot, difficult or unable to shift , resumes to almost normal or normal when cold, tricky sometimes and annoying.
Let us know, what you found next????

 

[GoldOxide_imp]

In light of PB's comments, other words might be MMC are:

Was the behaviour coming on slowly over several rides? Or was it sudden?

Based on past experience, the former would suggest clutch plate wear. The latter, or "sudden" may imply something else.

Although possibly not applicable to you, the only time I have had Honda hydraulic clutch failure was when the fluid circuit overheated. That is, the engine was extremely hot during a humid summer and while stuck in traffic. The failure came on suddenly, and disappeared once the clutch hydraulic circuit cooled down a bit (30 minutes). No worries, this was on a CB750.

 

[max]

MMC just so we cover all possibilities, the clutch lever 1-5 adjustment, 1 provides a bit more travel than 5.

To adjust; pull the lever forward and rotate in the desired setting.

Also measured the travel of the clutch plates with my vernier calipers through the filler plug it is close to 1 mm.
So the slave cylinder moves ( releases ) the clutch plates 1 mm. in the clutch pack

Probably not your issue but wanted to add to the list.

 

[the Ferret]

Max why would 1 provide more travel than 5. It's just a span adjuster isn't it?

 

[max]

Ferret that is a good question, on closer inspection the master cyl plunger does in fact travel deeper into the housing by a bit over a millimeter when the lever is pulled up to the handlebar in my case, have a look.

Not a great amount but it's there and you're right, its not a lot of a difference and probably not the main cause, very re-assuring that he checked the slave cylinder.

Thanks for checking this.

 

[peterbaron]

Max and others, thanks for your additional input.

Just thinking loudly about two things:
1* clutch master cylinder push rod, can it be installed in reverse/wrong way, causing binding or limited stroke???, the manual just says: install the push rod to the boot with its direction as shown ( 9-13, 3rd pic from top with side description)
2. If the master cylinder piston>push rod>> does not have proper stroke = the clutch will not do its job properly
2* Let's consider there is nothing wrong with the clutch and its control, would you consider shifter/gear box/mechanism problem, or definitely not ?
>
I think we covered entire clutch control system in inexpensive way.

 

[DBM_imp]

Max and others, thanks for your additional input.

Just thinking loudly about two things:
1* clutch master cylinder push rod, can it be installed in reverse/wrong way, causing binding or limited stroke???, the manual just says: install the push rod to the boot with its direction as shown ( 9-13, 3rd pic from top with side description)
2. If the master cylinder piston>push rod>> does not have proper stroke = the clutch will not do its job properly
2* Let's consider there is nothing wrong with the clutch and its control, would you consider shifter/gear box/mechanism problem, or definitely not ?
>
I think we covered entire clutch control system in inexpensive way.

Thinking outside the box. If any previous oil changes where done with auto oil with anti friction additives, that would foul the clutch plates and cause slippage.

 

[peterbaron]

Max and others, thanks for your additional input.

Just thinking loudly about two things:
1* clutch master cylinder push rod, can it be installed in reverse/wrong way, causing binding or limited stroke???, the manual just says: install the push rod to the boot with its direction as shown ( 9-13, 3rd pic from top with side description)
2. If the master cylinder piston>push rod>> does not have proper stroke = the clutch will not do its job properly
2* Let's consider there is nothing wrong with the clutch and its control, would you consider shifter/gear box/mechanism problem, or definitely not ?
>
I think we covered entire clutch control system in inexpensive way.

Thinking outside the box. If any previous oil changes where done with auto oil with anti friction additives, that would foul the clutch plates and cause slippage.

Thinking outside the box. If any previous oil changes where done with auto oil with anti friction additives, that would foul the clutch plates and cause slippage.
:huh: you said to be the original owner with good and proper oil change intervals????...
explain that oil sentence please, assuming not recommended oil was used, correct?
P.S home computer went dead yesterday, expect slower response, typing from phone is no pleasure

 

[jimgl3_imp]

50k miles slow and go as he described it, maybe time for some clutch parts...

 

[GoldOxide_imp]

Max and others, thanks for your additional input.

Just thinking loudly about two things:
1* clutch master cylinder push rod, can it be installed in reverse/wrong way, causing binding or limited stroke???, the manual just says: install the push rod to the boot with its direction as shown ( 9-13, 3rd pic from top with side description)
2. If the master cylinder piston>push rod>> does not have proper stroke = the clutch will not do its job properly
2* Let's consider there is nothing wrong with the clutch and its control, would you consider shifter/gear box/mechanism problem, or definitely not ?
>
I think we covered entire clutch control system in inexpensive way.

Thinking outside the box. If any previous oil changes where done with auto oil with anti friction additives, that would foul the clutch plates and cause slippage.

If that was the situation, then yes DBM. Slippage would be the overall and constant behaviour and be obvious all the time. I believe it starts happening within an hour of riding after the [incorrect] oil change.

If this was the case, I have seen some situations reverse after a proper oil (+ filter) change, again, within an hour duration of riding or less. I have heard others with less success.

 

[mattmcuomo@yahoo.com]

I have always used Honda oil. Either 10/30 or 10/40. I have always used Honda filters too. I am well versed on maintenance and I am capable of repairs and upgrades. I know how to adjust clutch lever and all that good stuff. This feeling that the clutch is not releasing is just driving me crazy. It functions but it feels like a delayed release when pulling in the clutch while going slow in first gear. Like it takes a second before I can actually “coast” in first gear while rolling. Does that explain anything?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[peterbaron]

I have always used Honda oil. Either 10/30 or 10/40. I have always used Honda filters too. I am well versed on maintenance and I am capable of repairs and upgrades. I know how to adjust clutch lever and all that good stuff. This feeling that the clutch is not releasing is just driving me crazy. It functions but it feels like a delayed release when pulling in the clutch while going slow in first gear. Like it takes a second before I can actually “coast” in first gear while rolling. Does that explain anything?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

MMC, excellent feedback, which assure us there is no problem witch clutch control section/L-side.
Now the clutch = R-side..you may take a quick look as per Max post #9:

" if you remove the oil filler cap you can see the clutch plates, with a light it is easier to see them move....... pulling the clutch handle in and keep it pulled in for some time, if the plates stay apart for a minute "

at the same time you might? be able to see clutch discs wear and plates discoloration.. if not, next you may have to pull off clutch cover and inspect as per shop manual, if you feel comfortable to do this kind of job?
This is the best advice, I can give now, based on your feedback and tests done so far
Plates should not show excessive discoloration an clutch discs must be within spec thickens as per manual...maybe you will see something else??
We'll be glad to hear back from you..

 

[mattmcuomo@yahoo.com]

I have always used Honda oil. Either 10/30 or 10/40. I have always used Honda filters too. I am well versed on maintenance and I am capable of repairs and upgrades. I know how to adjust clutch lever and all that good stuff. This feeling that the clutch is not releasing is just driving me crazy. It functions but it feels like a delayed release when pulling in the clutch while going slow in first gear. Like it takes a second before I can actually “coast” in first gear while rolling. Does that explain anything?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

MMC, excellent feedback, which assure us there is no problem witch clutch control section/L-side.
Now the clutch = R-side..you may take a quick look as per Max post #9:

" if you remove the oil filler cap you can see the clutch plates, with a light it is easier to see them move....... pulling the clutch handle in and keep it pulled in for some time, if the plates stay apart for a minute "

at the same time you might? be able to see clutch discs wear and plates discoloration.. if not, next you may have to pull off clutch cover and inspect as per shop manual, if you feel comfortable to do this kind of job?
This is the best advice, I can give now, based on your feedback and tests done so far
Plates should not show excessive discoloration an clutch discs must be within spec thickens as per manual...maybe you will see something else??
We'll be glad to hear back from you..

MMC, excellent feedback, which assure us there is no problem witch clutch control section/L-side.
Now the clutch = R-side..you may take a quick look as per Max post #9:

" if you remove the oil filler cap you can see the clutch plates, with a light it is easier to see them move....... pulling the clutch handle in and keep it pulled in for some time, if the plates stay apart for a minute "

at the same time you might? be able to see clutch discs wear and plates discoloration.. if not, next you may have to pull off clutch cover and inspect as per shop manual, if you feel comfortable to do this kind of job?
This is the best advice, I can give now, based on your feedback and tests done so far
Plates should not show excessive discoloration an clutch discs must be within spec thickens as per manual...maybe you will see something else??
We'll be glad to hear back from you..

Yeah. I will check out clutch through filler hole when I can. If I have to I will pull off clutch cover. No problem there, except I didn’t really want to. Lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[GoldOxide_imp]

I have always used Honda oil. Either 10/30 or 10/40. I have always used Honda filters too. I am well versed on maintenance and I am capable of repairs and upgrades. I know how to adjust clutch lever and all that good stuff. This feeling that the clutch is not releasing is just driving me crazy. It functions but it feels like a delayed release when pulling in the clutch while going slow in first gear. Like it takes a second before I can actually “coast” in first gear while rolling. Does that explain anything?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

MMC, excellent feedback, which assure us there is no problem witch clutch control section/L-side.
Now the clutch = R-side..you may take a quick look as per Max post #9:

" if you remove the oil filler cap you can see the clutch plates, with a light it is easier to see them move....... pulling the clutch handle in and keep it pulled in for some time, if the plates stay apart for a minute "

at the same time you might? be able to see clutch discs wear and plates discoloration.. if not, next you may have to pull off clutch cover and inspect as per shop manual, if you feel comfortable to do this kind of job?
This is the best advice, I can give now, based on your feedback and tests done so far
Plates should not show excessive discoloration an clutch discs must be within spec thickens as per manual...maybe you will see something else??
We'll be glad to hear back from you..

MMC, excellent feedback, which assure us there is no problem witch clutch control section/L-side.
Now the clutch = R-side..you may take a quick look as per Max post #9:

" if you remove the oil filler cap you can see the clutch plates, with a light it is easier to see them move....... pulling the clutch handle in and keep it pulled in for some time, if the plates stay apart for a minute "

at the same time you might? be able to see clutch discs wear and plates discoloration.. if not, next you may have to pull off clutch cover and inspect as per shop manual, if you feel comfortable to do this kind of job?
This is the best advice, I can give now, based on your feedback and tests done so far
Plates should not show excessive discoloration an clutch discs must be within spec thickens as per manual...maybe you will see something else??
We'll be glad to hear back from you..

Yeah. I will check out clutch through filler hole when I can. If I have to I will pull off clutch cover. No problem there, except I didn’t really want to. Lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Understood. It is a drag of inconvenience.

 

[max]

MMc just as a baseline i tried this test;
Bike with cold engine on center stand, rotate wheel by hand in neutral, put in first gear, pull in the clutch lever and"free up" the initial clutch drag.
After the initial clutch drag is overcome the wheel spins but i can feel increased drag from the clutch basket, by slowly releasing the handle the drag stays the same but increases after the first inch of the tip of the handle moves away from the handlebars and the clutch plates close the gap.
In other words the drag remains constant for the first 30% of the release and gradually increases over the remaining 70% of travel.

Sorry for harping on but i just want to help your situation, best wishes; Max