Checking valve clearances

[the Ferret]

Holy Cow nearly $1000 for a valve check. If none were out of spec they didn't even have to pull the cams.

 

[DrewNJ_imp]

Valve checks are often misunderstood by owners and possibly many dealer mechanics too. When a manufacturer gives a clearance range, say 0.14mm - 0.20mm they intend you to leave the shims well alone, if when measured, they are anywhere within that range including the outer limits. They are expecting another check at the next interval and have allowed for extra wear. They are not concerned on the next check if the value ends up at 0.12 or 0.23, they have allowed for this and that is when they expect you to change the shims.

There are plenty of owners and dealers who seem to think the middle value of 0.17 (in my example) is the ideal target gap and re-shim to that. Taking this approach will be the difference between taking the camshafts out every single service interval and possibly not taking them out for the next 100,000 miles.

That's a really good point!
So many assume that your going to burn up valves immediately if the motor is run for any period of time with valves that may be slightly out of spec.

Picked mine up Thursday evening. I had asked for a breakdown of the clearances when i dropped it off, but didn't get one. Everything was in spec, but they didn't say what the observed clearances were. Total was $875; had I known that ahead of time, I probably would have opted to do it myself.

Labor: 5 hours @ 129.00 $645.00
Parts: 126.52
Shop supplies 38.06
waste disposal 12.90
tax 52.23

Total $874.71

Personally, I would not be happy with the "everything was in spec". IMHO- if they can break down the cost of the work down to a single penny, and expect payment down to a single penny, they should also provide and document the findings/results for the work performed. Especially for $875.

 

[GoldOxide_imp]

Picked mine up Thursday evening. I had asked for a breakdown of the clearances when i dropped it off, but didn't get one. Everything was in spec, but they didn't say what the observed clearances were. Total was $875; had I known that ahead of time, I probably would have opted to do it myself.

Labor: 5 hours @ 129.00 $645.00
Parts: 126.52
Shop supplies 38.06
waste disposal 12.90
tax 52.23

Total $874.71

(ouch) :dodgy:

 

[Enzofour_imp]

Just a quick question. I assume that checking the valve clearances involves removing the cam cover and using feeler gauges to check the clearances without removing anything like the camshafts as would be needed to replace them. I am asking as I want to know what is involved so that i can get some idea of what the cost is likely to be at my local dealer.

Hello, expect a good amount, in addition to the tank you need to remove other stuff, the control units, the plastic cover and the pair pipes.
If it is just a clearance check, it is not necessary to extract the valve cover, just lift it by fixing it to the frame, because removing it is very difficult and requires removing and loosening something else and costs go up.

 

[PowerDubs_imp]

Picked mine up Thursday evening. I had asked for a breakdown of the clearances when i dropped it off, but didn't get one. Everything was in spec, but they didn't say what the observed clearances were. Total was $875; had I known that ahead of time, I probably would have opted to do it myself.

Labor: 5 hours @ 129.00 $645.00
Parts: 126.52
Shop supplies 38.06
waste disposal 12.90
tax 52.23

Total $874.71

What parts? What supplies? What waste?

Even better- question- what dealer?- so nobody makes the mistake of going there. You got ripped.

As far as 'if I had known'- they should have provided you with a written estimate before doing the work.

Valve checks are often misunderstood by owners and possibly many dealer mechanics too. When a manufacturer gives a clearance range, say 0.14mm - 0.20mm they intend you to leave the shims well alone, if when measured, they are anywhere within that range including the outer limits. They are expecting another check at the next interval and have allowed for extra wear. They are not concerned on the next check if the value ends up at 0.12 or 0.23, they have allowed for this and that is when they expect you to change the shims.

There are plenty of owners and dealers who seem to think the middle value of 0.17 (in my example) is the ideal target gap and re-shim to that. Taking this approach will be the difference between taking the camshafts out every single service interval and possibly not taking them out for the next 100,000 miles.

That's a really good point!
So many assume that your going to burn up valves immediately if the motor is run for any period of time with valves that may be slightly out of spec.

Picked mine up Thursday evening. I had asked for a breakdown of the clearances when i dropped it off, but didn't get one. Everything was in spec, but they didn't say what the observed clearances were. Total was $875; had I known that ahead of time, I probably would have opted to do it myself.

Labor: 5 hours @ 129.00 $645.00
Parts: 126.52
Shop supplies 38.06
waste disposal 12.90
tax 52.23

Total $874.71

Personally, I would not be happy with the "everything was in spec". IMHO- if they can break down the cost of the work down to a single penny, and expect payment down to a single penny, they should also provide and document the findings/results for the work performed. Especially for $875.

Agreed 100%

 

[Gone in 60]

Good thing I have a nice case on my phone, cause I tossed it across the room when I read $874 for a valve check.

 

[12milesout]

Picked mine up Thursday evening. I had asked for a breakdown of the clearances when i dropped it off, but didn't get one. Everything was in spec, but they didn't say what the observed clearances were. Total was $875; had I known that ahead of time, I probably would have opted to do it myself.

Labor: 5 hours @ 129.00 $645.00
Parts: 126.52
Shop supplies 38.06
waste disposal 12.90
tax 52.23

Total $874.71

What parts? What supplies? What waste?

Even better- question- what dealer?- so nobody makes the mistake of going there. You got ripped.

As far as 'if I had known'- they should have provided you with a written estimate before doing the work.

Valve checks are often misunderstood by owners and possibly many dealer mechanics too. When a manufacturer gives a clearance range, say 0.14mm - 0.20mm they intend you to leave the shims well alone, if when measured, they are anywhere within that range including the outer limits. They are expecting another check at the next interval and have allowed for extra wear. They are not concerned on the next check if the value ends up at 0.12 or 0.23, they have allowed for this and that is when they expect you to change the shims.

There are plenty of owners and dealers who seem to think the middle value of 0.17 (in my example) is the ideal target gap and re-shim to that. Taking this approach will be the difference between taking the camshafts out every single service interval and possibly not taking them out for the next 100,000 miles.

That's a really good point!
So many assume that your going to burn up valves immediately if the motor is run for any period of time with valves that may be slightly out of spec.

Picked mine up Thursday evening. I had asked for a breakdown of the clearances when i dropped it off, but didn't get one. Everything was in spec, but they didn't say what the observed clearances were. Total was $875; had I known that ahead of time, I probably would have opted to do it myself.

Labor: 5 hours @ 129.00 $645.00
Parts: 126.52
Shop supplies 38.06
waste disposal 12.90
tax 52.23

Total $874.71

Personally, I would not be happy with the "everything was in spec". IMHO- if they can break down the cost of the work down to a single penny, and expect payment down to a single penny, they should also provide and document the findings/results for the work performed. Especially for $875.

Agreed 100%

The parts were the 5 head cover gaskets and the 8 seals for the head cover bolts. It looks like the charged approx 50% above the online pricing, which isn't all that surprising. I'm not sure how they calculate shop supplies and waste, but it seems to be what a lot of shops are doing these days. I wasn't provided with a written quote before they did the work; I made the appointment almost a month ago, and had a narrow window of time in which to get it done.

 

[max]

Just a quick question. I assume that checking the valve clearances involves removing the cam cover and using feeler gauges to check the clearances without removing anything like the camshafts as would be needed to replace them. I am asking as I want to know what is involved so that i can get some idea of what the cost is likely to be at my local dealer.

Hello, expect a good amount, in addition to the tank you need to remove other stuff, the control units, the plastic cover and the pair pipes.
If it is just a clearance check, it is not necessary to extract the valve cover, just lift it by fixing it to the frame, because removing it is very difficult and requires removing and loosening something else and costs go up.

Thanks very much Enzo, that's very useful info and i will try this next time.

Never thought about this, very helpful tip

 

[GoldOxide_imp]

Picked mine up Thursday evening. I had asked for a breakdown of the clearances when i dropped it off, but didn't get one. Everything was in spec, but they didn't say what the observed clearances were. Total was $875; had I known that ahead of time, I probably would have opted to do it myself.

Labor: 5 hours @ 129.00 $645.00
Parts: 126.52
Shop supplies 38.06
waste disposal 12.90
tax 52.23

Total $874.71

What parts? What supplies? What waste?

Even better- question- what dealer?- so nobody makes the mistake of going there. You got ripped.

As far as 'if I had known'- they should have provided you with a written estimate before doing the work.

Valve checks are often misunderstood by owners and possibly many dealer mechanics too. When a manufacturer gives a clearance range, say 0.14mm - 0.20mm they intend you to leave the shims well alone, if when measured, they are anywhere within that range including the outer limits. They are expecting another check at the next interval and have allowed for extra wear. They are not concerned on the next check if the value ends up at 0.12 or 0.23, they have allowed for this and that is when they expect you to change the shims.

There are plenty of owners and dealers who seem to think the middle value of 0.17 (in my example) is the ideal target gap and re-shim to that. Taking this approach will be the difference between taking the camshafts out every single service interval and possibly not taking them out for the next 100,000 miles.

That's a really good point!
So many assume that your going to burn up valves immediately if the motor is run for any period of time with valves that may be slightly out of spec.

Picked mine up Thursday evening. I had asked for a breakdown of the clearances when i dropped it off, but didn't get one. Everything was in spec, but they didn't say what the observed clearances were. Total was $875; had I known that ahead of time, I probably would have opted to do it myself.

Labor: 5 hours @ 129.00 $645.00
Parts: 126.52
Shop supplies 38.06
waste disposal 12.90
tax 52.23

Total $874.71

Personally, I would not be happy with the "everything was in spec". IMHO- if they can break down the cost of the work down to a single penny, and expect payment down to a single penny, they should also provide and document the findings/results for the work performed. Especially for $875.

Agreed 100%

lol - Ensure to set-up "tamper evident sites" around the cam cover area to at least show they looked inside.

 

[DrewNJ_imp]

Picked mine up Thursday evening. I had asked for a breakdown of the clearances when i dropped it off, but didn't get one. Everything was in spec, but they didn't say what the observed clearances were. Total was $875; had I known that ahead of time, I probably would have opted to do it myself.

Labor: 5 hours @ 129.00 $645.00
Parts: 126.52
Shop supplies 38.06
waste disposal 12.90
tax 52.23

Total $874.71

What parts? What supplies? What waste?

Even better- question- what dealer?- so nobody makes the mistake of going there. You got ripped.

As far as 'if I had known'- they should have provided you with a written estimate before doing the work.

Valve checks are often misunderstood by owners and possibly many dealer mechanics too. When a manufacturer gives a clearance range, say 0.14mm - 0.20mm they intend you to leave the shims well alone, if when measured, they are anywhere within that range including the outer limits. They are expecting another check at the next interval and have allowed for extra wear. They are not concerned on the next check if the value ends up at 0.12 or 0.23, they have allowed for this and that is when they expect you to change the shims.

There are plenty of owners and dealers who seem to think the middle value of 0.17 (in my example) is the ideal target gap and re-shim to that. Taking this approach will be the difference between taking the camshafts out every single service interval and possibly not taking them out for the next 100,000 miles.

That's a really good point!
So many assume that your going to burn up valves immediately if the motor is run for any period of time with valves that may be slightly out of spec.

Picked mine up Thursday evening. I had asked for a breakdown of the clearances when i dropped it off, but didn't get one. Everything was in spec, but they didn't say what the observed clearances were. Total was $875; had I known that ahead of time, I probably would have opted to do it myself.

Labor: 5 hours @ 129.00 $645.00
Parts: 126.52
Shop supplies 38.06
waste disposal 12.90
tax 52.23

Total $874.71

Personally, I would not be happy with the "everything was in spec". IMHO- if they can break down the cost of the work down to a single penny, and expect payment down to a single penny, they should also provide and document the findings/results for the work performed. Especially for $875.

Agreed 100%

lol - Ensure to set-up "tamper evident sites" around the cam cover area to at least show they looked inside.

lol - Ensure to set-up "tamper evident sites" around the cam cover area to at least show they looked inside.
You laugh, but my nutcase brother-in-law marks his oil filters on his cars before taking them in for an oil change.

 

[Cormanus]

Has his mistrust ever been vindicated?

 

[dave]

You laugh, but my nutcase brother-in-law marks his oil filters on his cars before taking them in for an oil change.
[/QUOTE]
I don't blame your brother-in-law. I did a tune-up on my father's GM car that had a V-6 engine turned sideways several years ago. You had to go through additional work to unbolt motor mounts, and then pivot the engine forward to access the rear three spark-plugs. When I removed the three rear spark-plugs it was very obvious that they were the original three the car came with because they were extremely worn and old looking, while the front three looked normal (very little wear). My father had the car tuned-up by the dealer about two years prior, and it was obvious that they never replaced the three rear spark-plugs, although he had been charged for it. I was furious, and wanted to confront the dealer who did this to my 80+ year old father, but my father talked me out of it. I could sight more examples where I personally know people who were ripped off by dealers, but I won't get into that.

 

[the Ferret]

Back in 1978 I was the service manager at a local Honda Suzuki shop. A guy brought his Honda CX500 in for a 600 mile service (the valve clearances were supposed to be checked at 600 miles back then). I assigned a mechanic to it and when the job was done and the ticket turned back into me, I called the customer to come pick it up. When he came up, he paid the bill and then went out to his bike but soon returned. He asked if he could show me something. I went out to his bike with him and he had taped the valve cover gasket nuts which weren't un-taped indicating the valves had not been checked as required. Man, was I embarrassed. I immediately went back and confronted the mechanic who said he adjusted them. When I told him about the tape, he said he "listened to them and they sounded fine". I rolled the bike back in, made the mechanic check the valves right then and refunded the customers bill. I also docked the mechanic the amount he was paid for the job (they were on 60/40 back then) He was lucky I didn't fire him.

I trust the guy who works on my bike (I just visited him this afternoon) but... you never know.

 

[pdedse]

Picked mine up Thursday evening. I had asked for a breakdown of the clearances when i dropped it off, but didn't get one. Everything was in spec, but they didn't say what the observed clearances were. Total was $875; had I known that ahead of time, I probably would have opted to do it myself.

Labor: 5 hours @ 129.00 $645.00
Parts: 126.52
Shop supplies 38.06
waste disposal 12.90
tax 52.23

Total $874.71

What parts? What supplies? What waste?

Even better- question- what dealer?- so nobody makes the mistake of going there. You got ripped.

As far as 'if I had known'- they should have provided you with a written estimate before doing the work.

Valve checks are often misunderstood by owners and possibly many dealer mechanics too. When a manufacturer gives a clearance range, say 0.14mm - 0.20mm they intend you to leave the shims well alone, if when measured, they are anywhere within that range including the outer limits. They are expecting another check at the next interval and have allowed for extra wear. They are not concerned on the next check if the value ends up at 0.12 or 0.23, they have allowed for this and that is when they expect you to change the shims.

There are plenty of owners and dealers who seem to think the middle value of 0.17 (in my example) is the ideal target gap and re-shim to that. Taking this approach will be the difference between taking the camshafts out every single service interval and possibly not taking them out for the next 100,000 miles.

That's a really good point!
So many assume that your going to burn up valves immediately if the motor is run for any period of time with valves that may be slightly out of spec.

Picked mine up Thursday evening. I had asked for a breakdown of the clearances when i dropped it off, but didn't get one. Everything was in spec, but they didn't say what the observed clearances were. Total was $875; had I known that ahead of time, I probably would have opted to do it myself.

Labor: 5 hours @ 129.00 $645.00
Parts: 126.52
Shop supplies 38.06
waste disposal 12.90
tax 52.23

Total $874.71

Personally, I would not be happy with the "everything was in spec". IMHO- if they can break down the cost of the work down to a single penny, and expect payment down to a single penny, they should also provide and document the findings/results for the work performed. Especially for $875.

Agreed 100%

It's always a good idea. When I had my valves checked, the indy shop included a number of other things as a "major tuneup" service, which included oil/filter, brake fluids, air filter along with the valve check. It came out to just over $700. Their estimate also stipulated that it would cost more if any adjustments had to be made.

Good thing I read through the estimate prior to having it serviced:

LMAR8A-9 NGK Spark Plug LMAR8A-9S 4 11.95 47.80
Air filter 1011-3855 HFA1932 - Honda CB1100 1 30.95 30.95
Maxima Coolanol Maxima ready to use Antifreeze/Coolant. 1 16.95 16.95
Crush Washer - Cool... Coolant Drain Plug Crush Washer 1 2.50 2.50
Drag Spec Brake Fluid DOT 4 brake fluid 1 9.95 9.95

I talked to the guy about the coolant and the coolant drain plug and asked them how they were going to do that exactly on my CB1100. It took him a second or two before he said "hmmm, that's not supposed to be on there", said it was a standardized estimate and they forgot to take that off. I can see that happening, but I could see where nobody would catch that too. He also took off 1/2 hour of labor.

I asked him to write down on the estimate that I wanted the valve specs recorded, and I asked to speak with the mechanic about that as well. It's a small shop so the mechanic was right there, and he assured me that they always do that as a matter of course. And they did.

 

[PowerDubs_imp]

Back in 1978 I was the service manager at a local Honda Suzuki shop. A guy brought his Honda CX500 in for a 600 mile service (the valve clearances were supposed to be checked at 600 miles back then). I assigned a mechanic to it and when the job was done and the ticket turned back into me, I called the customer to come pick it up. When he came up, he paid the bill and then went out to his bike but soon returned. He asked if he could show me something. I went out to his bike with him and he had taped the valve cover gasket nuts which weren't un-taped indicating the valves had not been checked as required. Man, was I embarrassed. I immediately went back and confronted the mechanic who said he adjusted them. When I told him about the tape, he said he "listened to them and they sounded fine". I rolled the bike back in, made the mechanic check the valves right then and refunded the customers bill. I also docked the mechanic the amount he was paid for the job (they were on 60/40 back then) He was lucky I didn't fire him.

I trust the guy who works on my bike (I just visited him this afternoon) but... you never know.

No offense- but the fact that you didn't fire him for such an offense means you should have been fired as well.

And by no offense- I simply mean facts are facts.

I'm a black & white thought kind of guy. I know what I would do with my employees, and what I would want if I were a customer. This situation has no excuse for both levels of behavior / choice.

I can't possibly imagine anyone going back in the following weeks / months and being told "we talked to him"....

 

[the Ferret]

Back in 1978 I was the service manager at a local Honda Suzuki shop. A guy brought his Honda CX500 in for a 600 mile service (the valve clearances were supposed to be checked at 600 miles back then). I assigned a mechanic to it and when the job was done and the ticket turned back into me, I called the customer to come pick it up. When he came up, he paid the bill and then went out to his bike but soon returned. He asked if he could show me something. I went out to his bike with him and he had taped the valve cover gasket nuts which weren't un-taped indicating the valves had not been checked as required. Man, was I embarrassed. I immediately went back and confronted the mechanic who said he adjusted them. When I told him about the tape, he said he "listened to them and they sounded fine". I rolled the bike back in, made the mechanic check the valves right then and refunded the customers bill. I also docked the mechanic the amount he was paid for the job (they were on 60/40 back then) He was lucky I didn't fire him.

I trust the guy who works on my bike (I just visited him this afternoon) but... you never know.

No offense- but the fact that you didn't fire him for such an offense means you should have been fired as well.

And by no offense- I simply mean facts are facts.

I'm a black & white thought kind of guy. I know what I would do with my employees, and what I would want if I were a customer. This situation has no excuse for both levels of behavior / choice.

I can't possibly imagine anyone going back in the following weeks / months and being told "we talked to him"....

No offense- but the fact that you didn't fire him for such an offense means you should have been fired as well.

And by no offense- I simply mean facts are facts.

I'm a black & white thought kind of guy. I know what I would do with my employees, and what I would want if I were a customer. This situation has no excuse for both levels of behavior / choice.

I can't possibly imagine anyone going back in the following weeks / months and being told "we talked to him"....
I suppose firing him would have been the best option, but then I would have left my 3 man service dept, short a man, during the busiest part of the season. He made a mistake, tried to get away with something, was caught, was called out for it, made to do the job right, and was punished monetarily. I had no further issues with him. I saw no reason for the man to lose his livelyhood, and put my shop in the position of trying to keep up with service demands with 2/3 staff, while trying to find another experienced mechanic at that time of the year when I needed one the most. The customer was made happy and got his service for free. The "ideal" outcome? Probably not, but the best outcome that could be expected at that time. As far as the owner of the shop was concerned, I took the correct course of action.

 

[Gone in 60]

These stories are why I do my own work on my cars and bikes.

Even so, one can still get ripped off. I changed our CRV’s plugs at 100k. Turns out I got counterfeit NGK plugs, which melted within 10k miles.

 

[pdedse]

These stories are why I do my own work on my cars and bikes.

Even so, one can still get ripped off. I changed our CRV’s plugs at 100k. Turns out I got counterfeit NGK plugs, which melted within 10k miles.

I admire that...but I have to be realistic. There ain't no way I'm doing my own work on my cars--simple things, ok, but otherwise...I just have no interest. I have a mechanic brother I always consult. By phone he can give me the low down so that I can make good decisions.

On the motorcycles, I did all my own work on my Sportster (over 9 years), all my own work on my KLR650 (14 years) and I plan to do all my own work on my current DR650. And I'll do many things on my CB1100...but when I see that a shop plans 5 hours to check the valves and I read of what others come up against--I translate that into 2-3 weeks, and I'm not exaggerating.

 

[GoldOxide_imp]

... understandable pdedse.

For me, I'd need to be fully retired to find the time to execute the undertaking, and have a garage.

 

[1985CB450_imp]

My epiphany on service work came back in the mid 1980’s on my newly purchased ‘83 GS750ED Suzuki. The initial 600 mile service was stressed by the selling dealer as extremely important and vital to keeping the factory warranty in place. I was a poor kid at the time and the cost was rather substantial but I wanted it done right so off to the dealer it went.

Several weeks later I was cleaning the bike and after removing the tank and side panels I noticed several fasteners either loose or altogether missing. Knowing the bike did not come from Suzuki missing fasteners, at that time I committed to getting a factory service manual and doing my own work. No one is ever going to take the time and care doing work on your bike like you would. Take your time, read up on the procedures in advance, ask questions when needed and remember it’s not rocket science.
People are human and we all make mistakes but the tech mentioned above did not make a mistake. He lied and tried to cheat a customer…. big difference and regardless of staffing issues he should have been shown the door on the way out…