Chains and Sprockets

[OldF7Guy_imp]

Keep in mind that these are O-Ring chains and the rubber does wear out and that will be part of the stretch you are getting. And for me, personally, replace the sprockets with the chain. It's like replacing only one gear in a differential because it is the only one with broken teeth. The chain and sprockets wear in together and putting a new chain on old sprockets is only going to shorten the life of the new chain.

Appreciate the information Randy. I am living back in 1983 when there were no O ring chains so I dont know anything about them. It could be the chain never saw I drop of lube over the years until I got it. I just dont know. Or maybe age has gotten to the o-rings? It 11-12 years old now. I am with you on replacing all of it all at once though. I wont cut a corner on something like that.

 

[the Ferret]

The original Nighthawk chain is a cheap " market" chain. Very low tensile strength and wears out quickly. A new x ring chain has tremendous tensil strength and due to being packed with lube and sealed with x rings, will go 20-30,000 miles with minimal care.

Like you I am old school and was poor. We had to fix rather than replace. Guess that is why I still plug tires, and use clip style master links. My sprockets looked good so I just replaced the chain, although it is recommended they be replaced together. Again, sometimes I don't always do what is " recommended".

One word of caution when crimping a staking type master link. Too much pressure and you can creat a stiff link that cannot be fixed. Chain is ruined. Well, the link is ruined, it could be driven out and a new staking type link installed. Fine line between just right and too tight. Best to let someone who has some experience to stake a chain for you if you've never done one IMO.

 

[Randy B]

Also keep in mind that a lot of the "stretch" in a chain is actually the sprockets wearing. The grooves might look good, but they become too deep and thus require more distance to tighten the chain back up.
Food for thought.

 

[OldF7Guy_imp]

The original Nighthawk chain is a cheap " market" chain. Very low tensile strength and wears out quickly. A new x ring chain has tremendous tensil strength and due to being packed with lube and sealed with x rings, will go 20-30,000 miles with minimal care.

Like you I am old school and was poor. We had to fix rather than replace. Guess that is why I still plug tires, and use clip style master links. My sprockets looked good so I just replaced the chain, although it is recommended they be replaced together. Again, sometimes I don't always do what is " recommended".

One word of caution when crimping a staking type master link. Too much pressure and you can creat a stiff link that cannot be fixed. Chain is ruined. Well, the link is ruined, it could be driven out and a new staking type link installed. Fine line between just right and too tight. Best to let someone who has some experience to stake a chain for you if you've never done one IMO.

I did not know that Ferret and expected better from Honda but thank you for passing it along. I dont feel near as bad now. Everybody cuts some corners I guess. Im a tightwad and like to extend and milk the last drop out of everything I am probably going to replace the whole deal. That way, I know I am sure and know what I have. I honestly dont ride hard at all. Sometimes I get on it a little bit but not that often honestly. I can say for certain that I am not the cause of the premature wear.

Also keep in mind that a lot of the "stretch" in a chain is actually the sprockets wearing. The grooves might look good, but they become too deep and thus require more distance to tighten the chain back up.
Food for thought.

Did not know that either. Appreciate the lesson. I see where this is headed read quick. New sprockets and a new chain to be sure.

 

[flynrider]

The original Nighthawk chain is a cheap " market" chain. Very low tensile strength and wears out quickly. A new x ring chain has tremendous tensil strength and due to being packed with lube and sealed with x rings, will go 20-30,000 miles with minimal care.

Like you I am old school and was poor. We had to fix rather than replace. Guess that is why I still plug tires, and use clip style master links. My sprockets looked good so I just replaced the chain, although it is recommended they be replaced together. Again, sometimes I don't always do what is " recommended".

One word of caution when crimping a staking type master link. Too much pressure and you can creat a stiff link that cannot be fixed. Chain is ruined. Well, the link is ruined, it could be driven out and a new staking type link installed. Fine line between just right and too tight. Best to let someone who has some experience to stake a chain for you if you've never done one IMO.

That wasn't my experience. The OEM chain on my Nighthawk was a pretty sturdy DID O-ring. It lasted 21K miles. I replaced it with a similar DID O-ring, which went....drum roll....21K miles. They probably would have gone further if I'd bothered to clean them. Dirt build up wears the O-rings like sandpaper.

Chain life has a lot to do with how you treat them. My buddy and I both replaced our Nighthawk chains and sprockets at the same time. His only went 11K miles. He never lubed it and always kept it at the tight end of the spec. I lubed with a light silicone every 3-400 miles and kept it at the loose end of the spec.

Quote:One word of caution when crimping a staking type master link. Too much pressure and you can creat a stiff link that cannot be fixed. Chain is ruined. Well, the link is ruined, it could be driven out and a new staking type link installed. Fine line between just right and too tight. Best to let someone who has some experience to stake a chain for you if you've never done one IMO.
Excellent point. Chain manufacturers will list specs for the flare on the master link. My chain started with the link pin at .215" and the target was .225. I had to work the chain riveting pin a bit, pull the tool off, measure with calipers, work it some more, repeat. Although chains are sturdy, the rivets require a very light touch. I think I made about 5 passes per link pin.

 

[the Ferret]

Flynrider, you did good on your Nighthawk chain. I think most original chains back then were generally good for about 12,000 miles.

I disagree ( respectfully) about the valleys between teeth getting deeper. As chains stretch they try and climb up over the top of the tooth, elongating the valley towards the front and eventually making the top of the tooth curved and pointy.

When I worked in the industry we would have guys come in and say their clutch was slipping, and an inspection would show the rear sprocket so worn, there were nothing but nubs left where sprocket teeth used to be. Seriously the teeth would be worn clean off the sprocket, and the chain would have nothing to grab.

 

[Randy B]

I have seen it both ways. The Nighthawk I bought the year before I got the 1100 I didn't inspect the sprockets close enough before I bought it and rode it home and noticed the chain was "a bit loose". Like push up and touch the swing arm loose, and then some. I went to adjust it and found more than a couple broken teeth and I could tell that the grooves were too deep. That was the first time I'd run into that, but it does happen.

 

[OldF7Guy_imp]

I have seen it both ways. The Nighthawk I bought the year before I got the 1100 I didn't inspect the sprockets close enough before I bought it and rode it home and noticed the chain was "a bit loose". Like push up and touch the swing arm loose, and then some. I went to adjust it and found more than a couple broken teeth and I could tell that the grooves were too deep. That was the first time I'd run into that, but it does happen.

After inspecting mine today it appears to me that the groves are deeper than they should be. I always remembered the teeth being worn badly in the direction that it pulls. Heck, I remember even back in the old days that we would turn the sprockets around to try to get more out of them. :rofl:

Im ok for the next little bit but I am going to go ahead and get what you guys suggested. Problem is, I am so busy right now I dont have time to work on it and I wont pay anybody to do it either. I dont want to miss out on any riding either. In the perfect world, I would like to make it till winter so I dont feel like I am missing anything. I almost wish my back tire was worn out before I get into all of this but again I am a hard head and I think I can probably get another 3-4K out of it.

Looks like I am going to get about 12500 out of the original chain set which is about spot on to what Ferret said. I could not control the first 7K on this motorcycle so I just dont know how it was ridden. One thing is for sure though, My local Honda dealer will not make a sale nor will they lay a wrench on my Nighthawk ever. I dont think they know just how badly they pissed me off with their no test ride policy.:rofl: They are brand new in my town and we have gotten off on the wrong foot. I wont rehash all of it in my chain thread but these idiots fail to realize the greatest inventions ever were the wheel and then the internet. You can buy anthing online at the drop of the hat with advice from other like minded motorcycle enthusiasts.

 

[OldF7Guy_imp]

The original Nighthawk chain is a cheap " market" chain. Very low tensile strength and wears out quickly. A new x ring chain has tremendous tensil strength and due to being packed with lube and sealed with x rings, will go 20-30,000 miles with minimal care.

Like you I am old school and was poor. We had to fix rather than replace. Guess that is why I still plug tires, and use clip style master links. My sprockets looked good so I just replaced the chain, although it is recommended they be replaced together. Again, sometimes I don't always do what is " recommended".

One word of caution when crimping a staking type master link. Too much pressure and you can creat a stiff link that cannot be fixed. Chain is ruined. Well, the link is ruined, it could be driven out and a new staking type link installed. Fine line between just right and too tight. Best to let someone who has some experience to stake a chain for you if you've never done one IMO.

Ordered the chain and sprokets yesterday per Flynriders recommendations. I think the bill was 170.00 give or take. I dont have the tool to change this out and it will run 45.00-50.00 give or take. I emailed a local independent shop that will do it for 120.00. I have no experience with these new type chains and I am in a delima.

Since I have no experience with type chain would I be better off to pay somebody an extra 70 bucks or so? I hate to do that but I dont want to ruin a 120.00 chain either. I just hate paying somebody for something I think I can do but I am unsure in this case. But how do you learn? Is 120 reasonable?

Appreciate any advice. I am such a tightwad sometimes cant see the forrest for the woods but money is money. Can I do this or should I just pay up?

 

[Houtman_imp]

It is all easy to change your self but if you do not have the tools and a torque wrench and do not want to do a lot of servicing your self in the future than just pay the price and enjoy the bike.
I try to do most of the things myself but sometimes you need an better mechanic than you are your self.
A few weeks ago I had a carb problem with my 94 CB 1000 (run too strong carb cleaner thru the tank, BG 44 K)
Could not get it to run right and after $602 repair bill from great Honda mechanic, including parts , it now runs perfect again.
It was worth spending the $$$$.
Know your limitations !

 

[OldF7Guy_imp]

It is all easy to change your self but if you do not have the tools and a torque wrench and do not want to do a lot of servicing your self in the future than just pay the price and enjoy the bike.
I try to do most of the things myself but sometimes you need an better mechanic than you are your self.
A few weeks ago I had a carb problem with my 94 CB 1000 (run too strong carb cleaner thru the tank, BG 44 K)
Could not get it to run right and after $602 repair bill from great Honda mechanic, including parts , it now runs perfect again.
It was worth spending the $$$$.
Know your limitations !

I have tons of tools but just dont have the chain tool but found out today one of my buds has one that will let me borrow so Im doing it. If I get into trouble he will help me an is a great mechanic.

I know what your saying though. One time I took sportster down to my local indy mechanic pretty much in a cardboard box to have them reassemble. :rofl:

 

[Deanohh_imp]

When you grind the pins off the old link and put the new master on, have it around on the rear sprocket to hold it in position while you're working. Attach the end of the new chain to the end of the old with the old master and some tape or wire and thread it around the front sprocket pulling with the old chain. With a good set of calipers, measure the overall width across the new chain side plates and as you press on the new master, keep checking the width until it is the same as the rest of the chain. Dont over- stake the pins on the new master. The new chain specs should give what the diameter of swaged out pins should be......maybe around .010-.012 in. bigger dia than the pin was to start with. Some staking tools have a built in ridge on the mandrel that will stop you before you go too far.

 

[OldF7Guy_imp]

Gentlemen, I sincerely appreciate all of the advice given here. Everything is buttoned back up and the install went pretty smooth. I did every bit of it myself. Tough getting the axle back through the spacers and hub by yourself but I managed.

I did made one error. Pulled up to the first stop sign and had no rear brakes. :rofl: That was an easy fix of course. Rode about 30 miles and it seems much smoother. My chain and rear sprocket were really worn bad but the front seem to still be in decent condition which makes no sense to me.

Anyway, I did not wipe the grease off the new chain. I assume it was on there for a reason. Didnt appear to fling off anywhere after riding it. And I am on the loose side of spec which seems to make it shift much better also.

Dumb question, but is there some kind of tool that helps you make sure you have the wheel back exactly the same on both sides if that makes any sense?

 

[the Ferret]

Tape measure. Measure from center of swingarm pivot to center of axle on each side. Should measure the same.

For putting the axle and collars in by yourself, take a tapered 2x4 and slide it under wheel as you lift it up until the holes all line up and let board hold the wheel for you while you slide in the axle and line up the spacers.

 

[OldF7Guy_imp]

Tape measure. Measure from center of swingarm pivot to center of axle on each side. Should measure the same.

For putting the axle and collars in by yourself, take a tapered 2x4 and slide it under wheel as you lift it up until the holes all line up and let board hold the wheel for you while you slide in the axle and line up the spacers.

THe 2x4 I used was my foot in this case but it never dawned on me at the time that would have worked. Appreciate the tip. Center stand is just invaluable for a task like this. Could not have done it without it.


If you remember, the 750s have marks along the side for adjustment and I got them as close as I could but I will be pulling out a tape measure Friday to double check. Appreciate the advice.

 

[the Ferret]

The marks are probably good enough, and honestly thats what I use, some some people are more anal than that and want it to be precise. The tape is one way to be precise..sort of lol

 

[rboe]

From a tip from a member on this forum to use a special thickness board; I grabbed a piece of 15/16 thick birch I had laying around. Perfect for lining up and supporting the rear wheel.

To make sure the rear wheel is centered, the preferred method is a long straight edge placed against the rear tire, when the rear tire is aligned properly it will be parallel with the front tire (must be a long straight edge so it reaches the front of the front tire). This method will ignore any frame errors since you'll end up with a rear tire that tracks the front. I tend to just eye ball it but as I get older this is harder to justify as good enough. sigh

 

[flynrider]

The marks are probably good enough, and honestly thats what I use, some some people are more anal than that and want it to be precise. The tape is one way to be precise..sort of lol

I use the marks as a starting point, then sight down the chain with the chain guard removed for fine adjustment.

For reinstalling the wheel, I am also from the "foot" school of thought. A wedged 2x4 would probably work better, but that would mean I'd have to either make one, then remember where it is when I need it. My foot is always handy (footie?).