Bad fuel pump-

[jdgrego1_imp]

I haven't been riding much (or posting on the forum much) -recently I went to start my 2014 deluxe and it wouldn't crank- charged the battery, then it cranked but didn't start- I checked the gas and it smelled like varnish (dang-it!) - so I syphoned it out- put some fresh gas in there (1/4 gallon maybe) swished the gas around and syphoned it out as well - then put stabilizer in and a couple fresh gallons of gas- still didn't start - then I realized that I was not hearing the whine of the fuel pump (FP)- this was happening intermittently in the past- where I would have to rock the kill switch a couple times to get the FP to whine indicating it was on and working - I figured at the time it was an intermittant switch and I would replace it when it went full blown bad---- so I trouble shot the system and verified fuses, relays and kill switch (note- the initial indication was a bad FP per the manual) but since they cost an arm and a leg - I verified everything else in hopes I could find a more cost effective repair- no luck- all else checked good- so apparently it was the FP all along and not the switch- my question to the group- has anyone else had a FP go bad? I have about 5500 miles on the bike- like I said I haven't been riding it much lately- is it possible the bad gas caused it to go bad? I wouldn't think so but hey - stranger things have happened - and for the real question - whats the best way to ensure my stale gas is completely out? do I need to add anything like this product to ensure there is no rust or other gunk in the tank?

or is fresh gas and stabilizer / octane boost good enough? also- whats the difference in buying a FP assembly and a 'fuel filter', I know I need the pump, but does the filter come with a new pump assembly? Should I buy the filter if it doesn't come with the pump? or can the existing one be cleaned (and how) and finally - any ideas where to get a new fuel pump other than the dealer- or is that the best place? sorry for the long winded post- any help / suggestions are greatly appreciated-

 

[max]

Good idea about changing the fuel, before overthinking this; was the old fuel dirty?
And did the starter crank the engine over as per normal or was it slow to rotate the engine?
If there is not enough voltage available for the injector pintels to open up they may stick closed, just a guess.
If it is a fuel issue it should fire up with a spritz of brake cleaner in the air intake of the air filter under the rh sidecover.
Verify ( again ) that the fuel pump relay is energizing ( clicking ) every time you activate the red stop switch, you should hear and feel it making contact with your fingers.
Also try full open throttle start, it may work.
My cb1100 has refused to start once and stuttered into life for no reason a little while later, so it can happen after sitting for some time, don't know why.
5500 miles does not sound like a worn out pump to me, let us know your progress

 

[jdgrego1_imp]

Good idea about changing the fuel, before overthinking this; was the old fuel dirty?
And did the starter crank the engine over as per normal or was it slow to rotate the engine?
If there is not enough voltage available for the injector pintels to open up they may stick closed, just a guess.
If it is a fuel issue it should fire up with a spritz of brake cleaner in the air intake of the air filter under the rh sidecover.
Verify ( again ) that the fuel pump relay is energizing ( clicking ) every time you activate the red stop switch, you should hear and feel it making contact with your fingers.
Also try full open throttle start, it may work.
My cb1100 has refused to start once and stuttered into life for no reason a little while later, so it can happen after sitting for some time, don't know why.
5500 miles does not sound like a worn out pump to me, let us know your progress

Hi Max, thanks for the response - I'm not sure I would call the old fuel dirty, but it was definitely old, and smelled like varnish, and when I inserted the syphon hose it came out with grim/little chunks on the hose - so it was definitely nasty and needing to be cleaned out- starter cranked really well - after charging the battery - it's a Shorai LFX19A4_BS12 battery - I was thinking about going back to the original battery - but after having sit for several months and only running it occasionally over the past couple years - it still had 13.1v (not cranking) and after I charged it it came back like new- so I decided to keep it and instead invest in the correct charger for it - - yes I could hear, and feel the relay clicking when hitting the kill switch- I also removed them both and swapped them, and even checked the resistance while they were out with 12v applied - they both work as expected - I did try the full open throttle - no help- the only think I didn't try was the brake cleaner in the air intake (wish I would have thought to do that) but to be sure, the manual indicates to remove the connector to the FP, and take a measurement (12v battery power) says it should be there a few seconds, if it stays on more than a few seconds it's a bad FP- that (and the fact I couldn't hear the FP turn on) was my initial 'oh-crap' moment - the rest was just to ensure I wasn't wasting money on a new FP if it was something stupid (like a fuse, relay, switch) anyhow- I just ordered the new ~600 FP a few minutes ago- I have the tank removed - thanks to the input from another gentleman on the forum, and next on my list (while I await the new part) is replacing tires - an oil change, and other cool and fun stuff- hopefully the FP fixes the issue- otherwise I'm gonna be depressed one more question you might be able to help with- is there anything special I should do to ensure the fuel lines are clean before starting it with the new FP? appreciate your input- I will update you as I make progress - thanks!

 

[peterbaron]

If you buy a fuel pump ass-y it will come complete with base, pump, filter, gas sending unit and end connector. Swap it with a new rubber gasket, which you have to order on top of your f/pump ass-y

FP ass-y is about U$550 and filter alone U$280, rubber base gasket U$22

 

[Lord Popgun]

Wow, I think this is the first complaint of a failed fuel pump on the board.

Did by chance you put 12v on the pump and see if it runs? By that I mean on the ground and 12v pins on the pump connector. For what they cost I’d be verifying everything!

 

[jdgrego1_imp]

If you buy a fuel pump ass-y it will come complete with base, pump, filter, gas sending unit and end connector. Swap it with a new rubber gasket, which you have to order on top of your f/pump ass-y

FP ass-y is about U$550 and filter alone U$280, rubber base gasket U$22

Peterbaron- Thank you! I completely forgot about the base gasket!
I did remember the new rubber grommet and clips for the fuel line connections LOL-
appreciate the response and help!
John

 

[peterbaron]

John, no problem, we are one forum family

 

[jdgrego1_imp]

Wow, I think this is the first complaint of a failed fuel pump on the board.

Did by chance you put 12v on the pump and see if it runs? By that I mean on the ground and 12v pins on the pump connector. For what they cost I’d be verifying everything!

Lord Popgun, I did not do that - but it might be an interesting experiment now that the gas tank is out- what I did is the procedure on page 5-52 of the manual [2013-2014 CB1100/A/SA] which states to turn on the ignition, turn the stop switch to run, confirm the pump operates for a few seconds (which it did not) - then it says if it doesn't operate - to perform a check on the fuel pump 4P connector to verify voltage between the two terminals - states there should be battery voltage for a few seconds- if there is battery voltage for more than a few seconds to replace the fuel pump- I had constant battery voltage on these pins- never went away - that was my 'oh-crap moment' then I spent a few hours researching and testing everything else (in the electronic circuitry) I could think of - all else checked good- although in retrospect I didn't check the angle position switch- anyway I don't fully understand why the voltage on that 4 pin connector (power / ground through the shutoff relay) should go away after a few seconds - or why the voltage remaining constant would indicate a bad pump - but the pump was not whirring, and the book test said it was bad- so hopefully it's the issue- if not it's gonna be an expensive lesson and the bike still won't run... that would be a double whammy! anyhow- maybe I will attempt hooking up battery power & ground to the FP now that the gas tank is out and I can access see / hear everything much better- I haven't removed the pump from the tank yet--- in retrospect your suggestion would have been the best test- but never having worked on fuel injection I was a bit skittish about experimenting LOL - but hey - I'm having fun now- I like troubleshooting as much as I like riding - it's just a different kind of fun is all

 

[pekingduck]

Injectors can bleed a little bit of fuel overnight, the pump goes on for a few seconds when the key is first turned on to fill the fuel line to the injectors to prime it so it starts instantly.

At this point I would take the pump out and see if the actual pump can be freed up if it is locked up. As fuel pump failures are extremely rare as Popgun says, I'm curious how long that tank of gas actually sat in the bike. Could it be years?

That also brings up the question of the injectors possibly also being clogged.

Shop around for fuel pump prices - https://www.hondaparts-direct.com/ has pump/filter/gasket for under $400.

 

[max]

JD just be a bit careful testing the fuel pump, they are designed to be submerged in fuel, no oxigen is normally present, if you run it do it in a safe ( outside) way, see what i'm saying?

 

[GoldOxide_imp]

Agreed. Fuel pump failure is rare at this Forum, and that is great.

However, the same cannot be said of some other Honda forums where pumps are at high risk.

This year Honda Corporation had a significant recall/warranty effort and due to fuel pump failures affecting bikes and cages. I hazard to guess the CB1100 does not have this issue. The problem had to do with the propulsion system components disintegrating. For most of the year, Honda had a shortage of validated pumps.

In any case, electrical components do fail for random reasons and maybe jdgrego1 you are just a rare statistic. Hopefully you can remain happy.

 

[pekingduck]

JD just be a bit careful testing the fuel pump, they are designed to be submerged in fuel, no oxigen is normally present, if you run it do it in a safe ( outside) way, see what i'm saying?

Yes, Max's caution is well founded. Gas fumes, enclosed quarters, and a spark from your jumper battery could make things ugly quickly.

 

[PowerDubs_imp]

I'd triple check the kill switch.

 

[jdgrego1_imp]

Injectors can bleed a little bit of fuel overnight, the pump goes on for a few seconds when the key is first turned on to fill the fuel line to the injectors to prime it so it starts instantly.

At this point I would take the pump out and see if the actual pump can be freed up if it is locked up. As fuel pump failures are extremely rare as Popgun says, I'm curious how long that tank of gas actually sat in the bike. Could it be years?

That also brings up the question of the injectors possibly also being clogged.

Shop around for fuel pump prices - https://www.hondaparts-direct.com/ has pump/filter/gasket for under $400.

No, the gas wasn't in there for years, I rode it a few months ago- it was possibly in there for 4 to 6 months I'm not sure. I tested the FP by hooking up battery and ground to the 4P connector- with the tank off - nothing, nada, no sound, I'm not planning to remove the FP from the tank until the new one is in hand. it's on order...

Agreed. Fuel pump failure is rare at this Forum, and that is great.

However, the same cannot be said of some other Honda forums where pumps are at high risk.

This year Honda Corporation had a significant recall/warranty effort and due to fuel pump failures affecting bikes and cages. I hazard to guess the CB1100 does not have this issue. The problem had to do with the propulsion system components disintegrating. For most of the year, Honda had a shortage of validated pumps.

In any case, electrical components do fail for random reasons and maybe jdgrego1 you are just a rare statistic. Hopefully you can remain happy.

yea, I've been a rare statistic in other regards as well and yes I will remain happy -

JD just be a bit careful testing the fuel pump, they are designed to be submerged in fuel, no oxigen is normally present, if you run it do it in a safe ( outside) way, see what i'm saying?

Yes, Max's caution is well founded. Gas fumes, enclosed quarters, and a spark from your jumper battery could make things ugly quickly.

Yes, Max's caution is well founded. Gas fumes, enclosed quarters, and a spark from your jumper battery could make things ugly quickly.
yep, working outside - don't want to go boom!

I'd triple check the kill switch.

haha- yes- I did, and the relays, I really wanted it to be something other than a 500 fuel pump!
one point brought up by Pekingduck- injectors might be clogged- whats a good way to verify/ensure they are not clogged and correct if they are? I could do that while awaiting parts- I am assuming even if they were clogged that wouldn't 'kill' the pump, yes? no? man it would have been so much easier to just get on that pony and ride consistently...... now I know! you can bet your BP this won't happen again!
PS- maybe I can blame this on Covid19? Not riding due to not getting out, working from home, etc... haha!

 

[pekingduck]

I wouldn't think the fuel was old enough to be the cause of the failure then, so injectors likely okay. No real way to test the injectors for spray pattern or leakage without a pump. They are simply a solenoid in them, and you can see if it clicks by hooking a 9-volt battery to it momentarily.

 

[max]

Sounds like you've got the right answers JD, as you may know injectors have very fine mesh to filter out small particles, a bit similar to the old style fuel petcocks.

If the bike ran fine prior to the storage there would be no reason to suspect a set of blocked filters, it does happen but over a longer period and would show up at the fuel pump filter, it would manifest itself by restricting higher speed riding and accelerating, in all probability the engine would still start.

Usually there is only one fault at a time and for the 6 months ( worst case ) that does not sound alarming, if you want you can unplug one of ( the easiest one ) the injector connectors and apply 12 volts, i never tried it but suspect you would hear a click of sorts when things move inside.

Maybe someone can explain how the fuel pressure is maintained in our bikes, that has always been a puzzle to me?

 

[jdgrego1_imp]

I wouldn't think the fuel was old enough to be the cause of the failure then, so injectors likely okay. No real way to test the injectors for spray pattern or leakage without a pump. They are simply a solenoid in them, and you can see if it clicks by hooking a 9-volt battery to it momentarily.

Pekingduck- you say 9-volt battery? Curious, why 9v instead of 12v?
Thanks, John

Sounds like you've got the right answers JD, as you may know injectors have very fine mesh to filter out small particles, a bit similar to the old style fuel petcocks.

If the bike ran fine prior to the storage there would be no reason to suspect a set of blocked filters, it does happen but over a longer period and would show up at the fuel pump filter, it would manifest itself by restricting higher speed riding and accelerating, in all probability the engine would still start.

Usually there is only one fault at a time and for the 6 months ( worst case ) that does not sound alarming, if you want you can unplug one of ( the easiest one ) the injector connectors and apply 12 volts, i never tried it but suspect you would hear a click of sorts when things move inside.

Maybe someone can explain how the fuel pressure is maintained in our bikes, that has always been a puzzle to me?

Thanks Max, appreciate the info-

 

[pekingduck]

I wouldn't think the fuel was old enough to be the cause of the failure then, so injectors likely okay. No real way to test the injectors for spray pattern or leakage without a pump. They are simply a solenoid in them, and you can see if it clicks by hooking a 9-volt battery to it momentarily.

Pekingduck- you say 9-volt battery? Curious, why 9v instead of 12v?
Thanks, John

Sounds like you've got the right answers JD, as you may know injectors have very fine mesh to filter out small particles, a bit similar to the old style fuel petcocks.

If the bike ran fine prior to the storage there would be no reason to suspect a set of blocked filters, it does happen but over a longer period and would show up at the fuel pump filter, it would manifest itself by restricting higher speed riding and accelerating, in all probability the engine would still start.

Usually there is only one fault at a time and for the 6 months ( worst case ) that does not sound alarming, if you want you can unplug one of ( the easiest one ) the injector connectors and apply 12 volts, i never tried it but suspect you would hear a click of sorts when things move inside.

Maybe someone can explain how the fuel pressure is maintained in our bikes, that has always been a puzzle to me?

Thanks Max, appreciate the info-

Pekingduck- you say 9-volt battery? Curious, why 9v instead of 12v?
Thanks, John
12 volts is fine to test. 9v was just something quick and handy I had learned and had made a self contained test harness for.

I wouldn't think the fuel was old enough to be the cause of the failure then, so injectors likely okay. No real way to test the injectors for spray pattern or leakage without a pump. They are simply a solenoid in them, and you can see if it clicks by hooking a 9-volt battery to it momentarily.

Pekingduck- you say 9-volt battery? Curious, why 9v instead of 12v?
Thanks, John

Sounds like you've got the right answers JD, as you may know injectors have very fine mesh to filter out small particles, a bit similar to the old style fuel petcocks.

If the bike ran fine prior to the storage there would be no reason to suspect a set of blocked filters, it does happen but over a longer period and would show up at the fuel pump filter, it would manifest itself by restricting higher speed riding and accelerating, in all probability the engine would still start.

Usually there is only one fault at a time and for the 6 months ( worst case ) that does not sound alarming, if you want you can unplug one of ( the easiest one ) the injector connectors and apply 12 volts, i never tried it but suspect you would hear a click of sorts when things move inside.

Maybe someone can explain how the fuel pressure is maintained in our bikes, that has always been a puzzle to me?

Thanks Max, appreciate the info-

Pekingduck- you say 9-volt battery? Curious, why 9v instead of 12v?
Thanks, John
12 volts is fine to test. 9v was just something quick and handy I had learned and had made a self contained test harness for. There's a 12 ohm resistance test too, but that won't tell you if it's stuck or leaking.

 

[Houtman_imp]

If it was due to the Covid restrictions not being able to ride your bike than perhaps your health insurance will pay for the new fuel pump....

 

[jdgrego1_imp]

If it was due to the Covid restrictions not being able to ride your bike than perhaps your health insurance will pay for the new fuel pump....

now THAT's funny!!!