A tale of 2 Hondas

[the Ferret]

A lot of people talk about buying and riding a motorcycle to save some money over driving a car. I bought (2) new 2006 Hondas. An ST 1300 motorcycle and a Civic 2 door coupe. Both were about the same price retail, about $16,000. Both had 4 cyl engines with similar horsepower (around 120 hp). Both had manual 5 speed transmissions. Both revved to about the same rpm redline (8.5K) and actually both got very similar mileages ...38 for the car and 45 for the bike.

I sold the Civic after putting 205,000 miles on it to a friend who wanted it, for $3500. Still riding the ST. (wonder what a motorcycle with 205,000 miles on it would be worth, or if you could even sell it lol)

During the years I owned the Civic I had 52 oil and filter changes, put 2 sets of tires on it (Michelins), 1 set of front brakes, 2 air filters, 1 cabin filter, 1 set of spark plugs and 3 sets of wiper blades, and had the A.C. refrigerant added to once. No mechanical issues at all, it was a great car. Still on the original clutch, rear brakes, exhaust and battery when I sold it. My friend traded it in on a new Honda SUV after 2 years. He told me he hadn't had any issues, and that it had been a great car for him as well, although he did replace the rear brakes.

The other day I picked up the ST from yet another service at the dealership. At 83,000 miles it has had 21 oil and filter changes (I do the oil and filter changes and rear end oil, dealers do the rest), I'm on my 4th air cleaner, my 4th set of spark plugs, had 1 valve inspection, on 5th set of front brakes, 5th set of rear brakes, 8th front tire (Michelins), 10th rear tire (Michelins), 4th set of fluids in the clutch and brakes, on my 4th coolant change and my 3rd battery. The only mechanical problem I have had is a stuck thermostat at 34,000 miles (requiring one of the coolant changes) and a mechanical seal in the water pump that was leaking at around 60,000 miles (requiring another of the coolant changes). It has always brought me home. I'm hoping to ride it to 100,000 miles and that's going to require another set of front and rear brakes, one more front tire and 2 more rear tires. It's been a great bike.

But economical? Not hardly ..at least compared to the Civic. Plus in the Civic I had air bags and crash protection, a heater in winter, an air conditioner in summer, didn't get wet when it rained, could go in the snow, could take 3 people with me and had a lot more storage. Maybe that's why a motorcycle is such a hard sell to people who are not born motorcyclists. For a young guy with a wife and small kids and a limited income, a motorcycle is not a necessity but an extravagance, and certainly not economical. They just need too much repair, too often. Maybe buying a small used bike would be fairly economical? Say an air cooled 250 cc with single disc brakes? But riding one of those loses it's appeal quickly especially if you have any freeway commute. I think this is what manufacturers are dealing with. How do they sell motorcycles to millennials who don't want to endure cold or wet or hot or inconvenience? Would millennials rather have a motorcycle or a Kia Soul?

BTW I didn't buy the ST for economy or the convenience, I bought it because it's fun to ride. :biker: I bought the Civic for the economy and convenience.

 

[Rocky_imp]

Interesting observations

 

[Capo]

The only places in the US where, broadly, a motorbike can replace a car, and bring economic as well as convenience benefits, are with single adults (or those with abiding pillion partners) in major cities. Parking, insurance, threading traffic, etc, can tilt towards a bike vs a car. It's why there are more bikes than you'd think in NYC.

Postwar Europe saw the motorbike with sidecar as family transport, until small, cheap, somewhat reliable cars became available. And standards of living and consumer expectations rose.

Motorcycles are destined to be passion and hobby devices for the vast majority of consumers in the developed world.


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[the Ferret]

Capo I agree. So what kind of motorcycle do the mfg's have to make to attract that customer into the showrooms?

 

[rboe]

IF a young family or young person was looking for an inexpensive transportation machine the ST would not be on the list. When I was in that position I bought a used TS125. I think I paid $300.

That said, I think your premise that choosing a car makes more sense is still valid. When I bought the bike I was living in Duluth Minnesota so when winter came I eventually bought a Ford Pinto (and I'll cut the story short there as that is another tale all together!). I did take the bus for much of my commuting but the bus still had its' limits and naturally the bike had even more. Most health related.

But a cheap used econo car is hard to beat. You can carry two weeks worth of groceries, a date (even double date in most cars), safer, you can listen to your tunes - easily, and the critical heat and A/C are not to be under estimated.

With four wheels your car won't take naps. Especially in front of all your friends.

Meeting the nicest people on a Honda has morphed and I'll venture to say that people see bikers as your rebel types - and not in the good rebel may the force be with you type either. So motorcycles as a whole needs some image polishing to attract more main stream types (good for the industry, maybe not so good for us - I kinda like being a bit outside the mainstream. At least when I'm on the Guzzi.

The cheapest way to do this image overhaul? Make a block buster movie (aka Star Wars, Gone with the Wind, Dirty Harry - especially Dirty Harry) where the hero/heroine ride mid sized motorcycles. E.g. the CB500. You know how many Smith & Wesson Model 29's in 44 magnum were sold because of Dirty Harry? Or how many banjo's were sold because of Deliverance? Our society is lead by the nose by the entertainment industry. We need our version of Transformers to sell bikes (but please dear gawd, better looking bikes than transformers!).

Like so many other solutions. It's easier said than done. :-/

 

[Rolls_imp]

Great data, ferret! Excellent and relevant comparison.

When first taken by the siren song of the CB1100, I tried hard to justify it in every way possible, including economically. Why should I haul this heavy, 18-20mpg 7-passenger Sienna minivan around when an admittedly small but increasing fraction of my driving did not require me to haul my 3 high school kids around?

Surely, a 50 mpg motorcycle was the right answer... conveniently just the one I'd been unable to get out of my mind for several months.

I quickly threw a simple spreadsheet together including the most obvious line items: Gas, insurance, oil, tires, etc., and ran them against miles driven and possible increases in gas prices.

Alas, regardless of the cost aspects I added to my spreadsheet, or how many minivan miles I swapped out for thrifty moto miles, my exercise merely forced me to acknowledge that short of a tripling of gas prices or a CB1100 mysteriously rapidly appreciating in value, or some equally absurd scenario, economically, I could only prove that I indeed really wanted this beautiful new motorcycle. My spreadsheet and its financial implications would simply not be an ally in this adventure. My heart and I would be doing this one on our own.

After 33,000 miles, I'm happier with my CB1100 now than the day I bought it, but it's not because it's a big money saver.

 

[Cormanus]

You simply wouldn't buy a large capacity motorcycle to save money, would you? You'd buy a smaller one and then you would save on petrol.

But you'd probably be a motorcycle tragic or you'd be single, have a modest income that meant a car was out of the question and really want the independence owning a motor vehicle gives you. The minute a partner or family sailed over the horizon, you'd be looking for a small, economical used car and the bike'd be a goner.

At one period in my life, when my children were young and I lived in a small city with not very good public transport, I was just able to afford a second vehicle to commute. So I bought a Honda C90 scooter which cost next to nothing and gave me 105 mpg. But it was scary on a windy day and, when I could afford it, and given a car park at work, I replaced it with a cheap second hand Toyota Corona. It was dry and had a heater too.

I have three sons and my wife has two daughters. Only two of them own cars: one with a young family; the other for business reasons. Of the others, one has no form of drivers' licence; another lives in the city and walks everywhere or uses public transport. The cost of using one to commute is prohibitive (mostly parking costs). So, if he really needs a car, he rents one. The final one also lives in the city, has a young family and chooses not to add the cost of motor vehicle ownership to the already stretched budget.

I've not done any surveys, but, as I trundle around the countryside, I see plenty of young people on motorcycles. There are lots of 300-600 cc bikes about the joint. As I've posted elsewhere, motorcycle sales in Australia were up in 2016 and the number of smaller capacity bikes being sold in a market where there are constraints on what new riders can ride leads me to suspect it's mostly young people buying bikes.

I'm not sure many of the basics have changed. Owning a motorcycle was always a minority activity. Some did it, but most opted for a car.

 

[Capo]

Capo I agree. So what kind of motorcycle do the mfg's have to make to attract that customer into the showrooms?

I don't know. Im not sure it's that simple. There has to be some sort of cultural spark, or generational turn towards bikes. I don't think it's the lack of choice or styles in motorcycles. Probably the $139/ month car lease is the biggest obstacle to the bike market growing or bikes becoming transportation devices again.


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[Stichill]

I didn't fully realize, until I started riding, just how expensive it is to own and ride a motorcycle...even though I started on a 250cc bike. You can't just look at the cost of the bike. The riding gear is a major investment, as is the maintenance that ferret documents.

The younger generation doesn't look at vehicles the way their predecessors did...as coveted escape machines. Escape from Mom and Dad, escape from school, escape from the boredom of wherever you are by going somewhere else. Young people today do their escaping and traveling online, virtually. They don't get bored, because they have an infinite ocean of interest and entertainment literally at their fingertips.

For older generations, cars and motorcycles represented freedom. The kind of vehicle we owned said something about our outlook on life and how we viewed ourselves. Young people just don't look to transportation as something that defines them.

I'm starting to interact with a lot of young people in the workplace. It's hard to get used to their flat affect, lack of eye contact, lack of apparent interest in anything, lack of joyous life-energy. When my friends and I were that age, we were like exuberant puppies! We were always ready to romp and play. I think for many of these young people, real life is somehow gray and drab to them. They'd rather live in their virtual online life.

Not all of them are like this of course. But enough of them act like lobotomized digital zombies that it's worrisome.

 

[DaSwami_imp]

Ferret,

While I admire your detail and recordkeeping, you do seem to suffer a bit from some form of OCD. Jeez Louis, I've never seen anything like that. I mean I keep all my receipts, but I don't exactly LOOK at them.

Stichill,

Life seems gray and drab to the millennials BECAUSE of their virtual online lives they have lived since they were little. Just a sea of digital emptiness and overloaded stimulation. I disagree, I think what's at their fingertips is very boring but they don't know what else to do.

 

[Stichill]

Ferret,

While I admire your detail and recordkeeping, you do seem to suffer a bit from some form of OCD. Jeez Louis, I've never seen anything like that. I mean I keep all my receipts, but I don't exactly LOOK at them.

Stichill,

Life seems gray and drab to the millennials BECAUSE of their virtual online lives they have lived since they were little. Just a sea of digital emptiness and overloaded stimulation. I disagree, I think what's at their fingertips is very boring but they don't know what else to do.

I did everything I could to drag my kids away from the screen. We live in the country where we can ride dirt bikes, shoot guns, hike in the woods, play in the creek, cut up firewood, plant a garden, study nature, drive a tractor, go swimming, climb a tree, swing on a rope, play in the snow, look at the night sky...it's all there for the taking. I'd get them outdoors on occasion but most of the time they'd just say "No thanks, Dad." and stay indoors.

I guess some people simply ban screens in their kids' lives but then you worry about pushing them out of sync with their peers or stunting their ability to function in the future digital world.

When they got old enough, at some point I realized they didn't really care if Dad was around to do things with them on the weekend anyway, so I starting riding street and never looked back! They can have their screens and I'll take a winding road and a willing machine.

:biker:

 

[DAC]

In our time, motorcycles are largely toys. It is a difficult and uncomfortable form of vehicular travel that is increasingly out of step with consumer tastes. Cars are now so luxurious and accommodating that "involved" motorized travel is largely becoming less of a desired activity. The current push for "autonomous" self-driving vehicles is making what used to be an engaging activity about as interesting as climbing on a bus. Just getting from point A to point B with the appropriate indications of societal status.

Remember "Sunday drives?" The whole family just clambered aboard the family sedan or station wagon and just drove to see what the surrounding world was like. Maybe that was an American peculiarity. Who knows? At any rate, those are long gone now.

Soon now - and you heard this here first - you will be ticketed for too many lane changes. Active participation in the whole driving experience will be actively discouraged. Can't disturb the algos now, can we?

In the meantime, just take the opportunity to gas up the trusty CB (or whatever else in your garage) and just go!

 

[Nortoon_imp]

I track of my motorcycle expenses.
But I should not because I am retired and bought it for fun.

My CB500XA was a onetime expense of CDN$6877 out the door.
Here are the total costs for the last 3 years.

CLOTHES $724
HELMETS $862
ACCESSORIES $1311
INSURANCE $2403
GAS $11O6
MAINTENANCE $2739
TOTAL $9145

Insurance: Although I have not had an accident in 25 years, I pay the for the people that do. My motorcycle insurance is almost the same as my expensive new car, although a fraction of the cost. The difference is the medical coverage for the motorcycle rider and passenger, even though I ride alone.

Maintenance: Tires, valve checks, chain and sprockets were the big ticket items.
I do my own oil and filter changes, but leave the big jobs for the dealer.

I am not concerned with the costs.
But I was surprized they exceeded the cost of the bike in just 3 years.

 

[4 Paws_imp]

did you really buy a motorcycle to save money or just tell your wife that?

 

[the Ferret]

Yes, your insurance is undoubtedly a big hit, but still not as much as your maintenance which is almost exactly 1/3 the price of the new bike in 3 years. I don't think most people think about that. I think you said you have ridden about 33K kilometers or about 20,000 miles. In gas, insurance and maintenance alone it cost you about .31 per mile to ride (not counting clothing, helmets and accessories) if my math is correct. Add another 7 cents a mile if you count accessories. The clothing and helmet you can wear on another bike, but if this were a first purchase you'd have to include them for another 8 cents per mile. Althogether 46 cents a mile at this point, and this is an economical mid sized twin motorcycle that should get really good gas mileage, and decent tire and brake wear.

Hard to make a point for a motorcycle being economical to own.... but they sure are fun!

 

[Nortoon_imp]

Our financial advisor asked me to track all our expenses. I added a separate section for the motorcycle just for my own interest. I treat it like any other hobby. I am sure I have spent as much on my battery powered, radio controlled large scale trains over the last 26 years as I have on my motorcycle.

I remember all my bike costs worked out to 48 cents per happy kilometer over the last 3 summers. Pretty cheap entertainment.

Now that I have returned to motorcycling after a 25 year hiatus, I won't give it up as long as I am able to ride. I played beer league hockey until I was 48 and baseball until I was 56. During our 6 month long winters, I walk the local nature trail for an hour. So fortunately I have maintained my good health.

Every month for the last couple of years I saved $200 in my Tax Free Savings Account in case I find that elusive 2014 Deluxe or 2017 EX model at a reasonable price. Until then I will enjoy what I have.

 

[kvdreamer_imp]

A lot of people talk about buying and riding a motorcycle to save some money over driving a car. I bought (2) new 2006 Hondas. An ST 1300 motorcycle and a Civic 2 door coupe. Both were about the same price retail, about $16,000. Both had 4 cyl engines with similar horsepower (around 120 hp). Both had manual 5 speed transmissions. Both revved to about the same rpm redline (8.5K) and actually both got very similar mileages ...38 for the car and 45 for the bike.

I sold the Civic after putting 205,000 miles on it to a friend who wanted it, for $3500. Still riding the ST. (wonder what a motorcycle with 205,000 miles on it would be worth, or if you could even sell it lol)

During the years I owned the Civic I had 52 oil and filter changes, put 2 sets of tires on it (Michelins), 1 set of front brakes, 2 air filters, 1 cabin filter, 1 set of spark plugs and 3 sets of wiper blades, and had the A.C. refrigerant added to once. No mechanical issues at all, it was a great car. Still on the original clutch, rear brakes, exhaust and battery when I sold it. My friend traded it in on a new Honda SUV after 2 years. He told me he hadn't had any issues, and that it had been a great car for him as well, although he did replace the rear brakes.

The other day I picked up the ST from yet another service at the dealership. At 83,000 miles it has had 21 oil and filter changes (I do the oil and filter changes and rear end oil, dealers do the rest), I'm on my 4th air cleaner, my 4th set of spark plugs, had 1 valve inspection, on 5th set of front brakes, 5th set of rear brakes, 8th front tire (Michelins), 10th rear tire (Michelins), 4th set of fluids in the clutch and brakes, on my 4th coolant change and my 3rd battery. The only mechanical problem I have had is a stuck thermostat at 34,000 miles (requiring one of the coolant changes) and a mechanical seal in the water pump that was leaking at around 60,000 miles (requiring another of the coolant changes). It has always brought me home. I'm hoping to ride it to 100,000 miles and that's going to require another set of front and rear brakes, one more front tire and 2 more rear tires. It's been a great bike.

But economical? Not hardly ..at least compared to the Civic. Plus in the Civic I had air bags and crash protection, a heater in winter, an air conditioner in summer, didn't get wet when it rained, could go in the snow, could take 3 people with me and had a lot more storage. Maybe that's why a motorcycle is such a hard sell to people who are not born motorcyclists. For a young guy with a wife and small kids and a limited income, a motorcycle is not a necessity but an extravagance, and certainly not economical. They just need too much repair, too often. Maybe buying a small used bike would be fairly economical? Say an air cooled 250 cc with single disc brakes? But riding one of those loses it's appeal quickly especially if you have any freeway commute. I think this is what manufacturers are dealing with. How do they sell motorcycles to millennials who don't want to endure cold or wet or hot or inconvenience? Would millennials rather have a motorcycle or a Kia Soul?

BTW I didn't buy the ST for economy or the convenience, I bought it because it's fun to ride. :biker: I bought the Civic for the economy and convenience.

Ferret,
That is the reason to ride... the joy of riding! I love the ST... had a 1991 older style ST. Then I bought a Kawaki Concours 1995... and the ST was still in the family. Eventually the Concour was sold and we kept that ST for 10 years. Great bike. Now I have a 2011 Kawasaki Concours and absolutely love it. Since I decided to only have one bike my CB 1100 and later my 2015 Vesys 650LT got sold. I loved the looks of the CB 1100 but love the ride of the Concours better. All are great bikes though.

 

[jimgl3_imp]

learn how to work on the bike. that helps. to me it's part of the fun. part of the "hobby"

 

[rotor]

The only places in the US where, broadly, a motorbike can replace a car, and bring economic as well as convenience benefits, are with single adults (or those with abiding pillion partners) in major cities. Parking, insurance, threading traffic, etc, can tilt towards a bike vs a car. It's why there are more bikes than you'd think in NYC.

Postwar Europe saw the motorbike with sidecar as family transport, until small, cheap, somewhat reliable cars became available. And standards of living and consumer expectations rose.

Motorcycles are destined to be passion and hobby devices for the vast majority of consumers in the developed world.


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"Threading traffic" as it is done in North America is a joke.

The main advantage of using a motorcycle for commuting in the rest of the world lies in the fact that it is perfectly normal for a motorcyclist to move between lanes blocked with slow moving (or not moving) vehicular traffic. It is likewise normal for for a motorcycle to pull ahead of the cars stopped at lights. Parking for motorcycles is as a rule free where car drivers pay for it.

I am flabbergasted by the short-sightedness of motorcycle industry in Canada and the US. They don't seem to understand that by selling motorcycles as nothing but expensive toys their customer base is dwindling due to simple biology. As somebody mentioned, millennials do not by into this "toy philosophy" in sufficient numbers to keep them in business. They - the industry - are the only force that can push for traffic laws changes ("lane splitting" is a good start, availability and cost of downtown parking commensurate with the space used comes next) that will make commuting to and from work by a motorcycle an attractive choice in the US and Canada. The motorcycling community here is unfortunately overwhelmingly interested only in joy-riding, not in economical and practical transportation, and is thus not of any help in pushing for change.

 

[ClassicVW_imp]

I agree with your assessment, rotor, but would like to add that there are quite a few other variables w/r/t why people in the U.S and Canada don't think of a motorcycle as an effective option for their commute. I can't blame the M/C manufacturers completely. The U.S. public still has the M/C as a toy mentality. In the northern U.S and Canada, it's really not an option during the winter. I think most believe, possibly correctly, that it's not really a practical option for them because they still need a car. Over here, they need a vehicle to go back and forth to Home Depot. Look at the best selling vehicle in the USA, it's a pickup truck. Most believe it's too dangerous as a daily option due to the clogged highways with drivers of SUVs doing 85 MPH 15 feet behind the next vehicle. And the move to the suburbs over the past 50 years make for longer commutes than people in Europe typically have. As I type this, this morning, the wait time to cross into NYC on the George Washington Bridge is 75 minutes. The temps may be mild, but it's a light drizzle with dense fog, so between the conditions and the wait, not very comfortable to do on the bike. Millenials are moving back to the cities and many of them don't need or want a car. A scooter or a small motorcycle may be an option, but it's still not necessary what with the buses, taxis, Uber and subways all available.