tps evaluating for ii issues

[max]

Nice one Dave, that indicates to me that the iacv is actually working fine when in 1050 normal mode, it acts the same as on my bike.


It would be interesting to know if it still works if the 700 idle is happening, so if you blip the throttle, idle settles for 700 and then pull the hoses immediately when it idles at 700 rpm and see if it adjusts in the same way.


So test 1 is a success, see if you can catch a few 700 rpm idles in the act.

Oh, forgot to ask ;when you say slowly return to 1050 how many seconds you think for it to go from 700 to 1050 and is it always the same time span ?

In the mean time we are having a team discussion.

Thanks max

 

[dave]

Hi Max, thanks. Usually it takes between 5 and 10 seconds to return from 700 RPM to 1,050 RPM, but usually closer to 5. On the days when it stalls, it takes longer (closer to 10 seconds) to return.

I'll try to yank the hoses off tomorrow right when it is idling at 700 RPM. Do I risk sucking any dirt in if I ride the bike with the hoses disconnected? Will we gain any knowledge if I do this?

Thanks again Max, to you and the guys for all your support.

 

[max]

Hi Max, thanks. Usually it takes between 5 and 10 seconds to return from 700 RPM to 1,050 RPM, but usually closer to 5. On the days when it stalls, it takes longer (closer to 10 seconds) to return.

I'll try to yank the hoses off tomorrow right when it is idling at 700 RPM. Do I risk sucking any dirt in if I ride the bike with the hoses disconnected? Will we gain any knowledge if I do this?

Thanks again Max, to you and the guys for all your support.

Good questions Dave and thanks for the times

 

[dave]

IMPORTANT UPDATE! Took the bike out on errands this morning (10 miles of around town, multiple stop lights, turned the engine off and restarted 4 times), and it ran perfectly. Took it out a second time this afternoon and it ran the worse it has even run. The engine wanted to stall ½ the time I stopped, unless I held the throttle slightly open. When it wasn’t stalling, it was taking longer than usual (maybe 15 – 20 seconds) to increase in RPM, but was only reaching 1,000 RPM, not 1,050 RPM. I did the EVAP tube removal test multiple times and removing the tubes made absolutely no difference. I blipped the throttle several times with the tubes installed and removed, and there was no difference – for both cases the idle would drop to 700 RPM, and half of the time it would stall. Now here is the breaking news: When the engine stalled I noticed the sound that sounded like a solenoid valve operating for 2 or three seconds after the engine stopped (IACV?). I have never noticed this before, but that doesn’t mean it never happened before. I had my helmet off, and my head down low to look at the EVAP tubes when I heard it. So I Listened very carefully for this sound and repeated blipping the throttle and letting the idle drop to about 700 RPM each time (it was barely running, if it wasn’t stalling), and I heard the sound of the solenoid valve operating what may have been constantly. When I increased the RPM I could not be sure if the valve remained operating or not because it is very quiet, and difficult to hear (especially if you have bad hearing, like me), but it was definitely operating each time the RPM decreased, and when the engine stalled it continued to operate for 2 or 3 seconds. Hopefully this will provide some good information for you guys out there who are helping with this.

 

[max]

A flurry of e-mails is happening, and check your pm.

 

[max]

Thanks everybody for your input and helpful thoughts, including earlier suggestions, as you can guess we are slowly approaching the part where Dave can make some decisions;
1 start replacing one or more parts,
2 get in contact with Honda again.

None of us have a clear idea of the exact part that is the cause of the fault, however there are some things that have not been done and that is cleaning all connectors to the sensors;
a map sensor 3 pole connector ( left hand side behind plastic cover ).
b iacv 4 pole connector ( right hand side under plastic cover )
c evap purge valve 2 pole connector( right hand side under throttle body )
d air temp sensor small 2 pole connector up high ( left hand side under cb1100 side cover ).

E-mails are buzzing with bad electrical connections as a suspect so i thought i would point these out, also pm'd Dave with some other suggestions but just to keep everybody in the loop.

max

 

[Cormanus]

Great work, you guys. Really impressive.

 

[pdedse]

I sit on the sidelines, a bit mesmerized by the knowledge that several of you collectively have. I was really pulling for a low-cost fix so Dave's bike would run like it should, even though that would have made me regret my decision to trade in my affected '14 standard. I've thought a lot lately about trying one more time with a left over '14...how likely would it be that I would be the unlucky owner of two idle challenged bikes? Likely enough that I just can't bring myselft to go that route...so I'm at peace with my decision...

...but not at being CB1100-less.

 

[max]

Well don't forget it is really a team effort, we all have a different background and that presents many options.
Like you i would have enjoyed a poor connection and that may yet happen, the interesting bit is that replacing the iacv has had a good outcome for at least two of us and two more if you count the throttle body replacements.

The fact that we could not yet prove the iacv to be faulty does not mean it isn't, sometimes extremely difficult to test something, so as a last resort we may have to replace it and have a good look at what is happening inside.
Earlier in the day i walked in the local dealer and inquired about replacement and warranty policy, he sayd that if the issue has been brought up within the warranty period but could not be diagnosed it is still a valid claim, honda have in the past replaced stators on bikes up to 5 years old if the simple test shows the known fault, he says Honda is serious about warranty but it has to be proven the correct way.
When asked about a faulty iacv he stated; happens all the time exept on the cb1100, which is true for nz.

Have given Dave some options and i am very happy to stay on the case but after a year i really feel for Dave, it is simply not a fair go from his perspective with respect to the dealer.

New 2014 model? i would wait unless the dealer stands firmly behind it and i would get that in writing; no writing? why not?

Thinking about it it really is up to the dealership if success is achieved, Dave did not ask for a faulty bike now did he?



here is a picture of the culprit


max

 

[dave]

Thank you to all you great guys who are assisting to solve this problem. I put about 65 miles on the bike yesterday. The slow idle came, and went. Sometimes it is more severe that others, like when the engine was stalling on Saturday; yesterday it was not very severe (it worked back up to a normal idle in about 5 seconds). I listened for the IACV sound yesterday, and there was none. Something else I discovered, turning the bike off with the key and restarting it seems to "temporarily" resolve the low idle issue.

Do I have to remove the entire throttle body assembly from the bike to replace the IACV? I thought this is what the factory service manual said. Does this vale operate by rotating, or by traveling inward and outward?

I will replace my IACV and see if this works. However, my VFR800 is in pieces in the garage because I am rebuild the forks and replacing the steering head bearings, so I have to finish that job first.

 

[Lord Popgun]

The valve works by rotating. Do you have a service manual? Check page 5-74 and 5-75 for a pic.

 

[SportsterDoc]

Thank you to all you great guys who are assisting to solve this problem. I put about 65 miles on the bike yesterday. The slow idle came, and went. Sometimes it is more severe that others, like when the engine was stalling on Saturday; yesterday it was not very severe (it worked back up to a normal idle in about 5 seconds). I listened for the IACV sound yesterday, and there was none. Something else I discovered, turning the bike off with the key and restarting it seems to "temporarily" resolve the low idle issue.

Do I have to remove the entire throttle body assembly from the bike to replace the IACV? I thought this is what the factory service manual said. Does this vale operate by rotating, or by traveling inward and outward?

I will replace my IACV and see if this works. However, my VFR800 is in pieces in the garage because I am rebuild the forks and replacing the steering head bearings, so I have to finish that job first.

Dave, Popgun suggested that about a year ago (CB1100 idle speed stability thread), but before you do, unplug it, clean the connector and re-plug it. Also check for any damage to the wires going into the connector.

For those who replaced the IACV, without success, it may be due to a peripheral issue, such as connector, wiring or obstructed ports controlled by the IACV.

Below was posted 27 Dec (CB1100 idle speed stability thread). You can check off what has been done and what may remain:

Suggestions if you experience low/high idle issues:

1. Check for active codes, per page 5-12 & 5-13 of the Factory Service Manual, checking the codes lists on pages 5-15 & 5-16

2. Check for stored codes, per page 5-14 of the FSM

3. If no codes, then insure that there is no vacuum leak. An unlit propane torch applying propane to intake areas will detect a leak by listening for a change in idle speed. Check vacuum hoses and fittings, one 4 way (17201-MCJ-003, $7) and one 5 way (17201-MCZ-003, $5.60), then snug all 8 clamps from throttle bodies to intake.

A. Disconnect Throttle Position Sensor connector (engine OFF), clean contacts (contact cleaner available at Home Depot or Lowes, etc.), check for damaged wiring and reconnect. GO FOR A RIDE. If issue persists, continue

B. Disconnect Idle Air Control Valve, clean contacts, check for damaged wiring and reconnect. GO FOR A RIDE. If issue persists, continue

C. Follow TPS diagnostics per pages 5-23 thru 5-25 of the FSM. Note comments in posts 615, 618 & 622, especially see Max's post 632 regarding TPS output test in CB1100 idle speed stability thread. If output is not 0.5 VDC, loosen fasteners (ignition on, engine NOT running) and rotate TPS to obtain 0.5 VDC, throttle closed. After adjusting TPS throttle closed output, do a throttle calibration with ignition on, engine NOT running, by SLOWLY opening and closing throttle, 2-3 times. GO FOR A RIDE. If issue persists, continue

D. Follow IACV diagnostics per pages 5-74 & 5-75 of the FSM. If OK, then remove IACV, clean IACV port and check for unobstructed travel. If not OK, IACV (16430-MJF-D01) is $119.13 from Honda. GO FOR A RIDE. If issue persists, continue

E. Follow EOT (Engine Oil Temperature Sensor) diagnostics per 5-21 of FSM, particularly resistance value of 2.4 to 2.9 Kohms (2,400 to 2,900 ohms) at 20C / 68 F. If not OK, EOT sensor (37750-KPH-701) is $34.56 from Honda. GO FOR A RIDE. If issue persists, re-check the FSM diagnostics. Note that a faulty ECM is a possibility, albeit rare. The only time I recall a failed ECM on a Sportster, was due to an internal 5 VDC sensor power supply failure.

The EOT (Engine Oil Temperature) sensor and IACV (idle Air Control Valve) are available from Honda. The Honda Rune Forum has posted a TPS replacement for the Keihin JT6H TPS: 16060-MBZ-A11, $114.29 from honda. This is for a 2006 CB600F. The Rune Forum posted that this sensor is a Keihin JT6H, but we have not yet verified compatability.

For non-USA owners, check that the latest ECM program is installed by your dealer.

The valve works by rotating. Do you have a service manual? Check page 5-74 and 5-75 for a pic.

Be helpful if we had a better quality photo of the air ports. Cleaning the IACV is a common automotive issue and symptoms are similar to the low idle on the CB.

Meanwhile, Max has been coordinating the effort to narrow it down.

1. It does not seem to be a MAP issue, due to symptoms not matching.

2. It does not seem to be an EOT issue, per reports in the CB1100 idle speed stability thread, nor do symptoms match.

3. It does not seem to be a TPS issue, due to the recent testing guided by Max.

4. I remain concerned about a large intermittent vacuum loss, but that possibility seems to have been explored by Popgun's testing, per emails between Max, Popgun, Peter and I. Still would like to hear back from Dave on removing purge hose from purge valve to intake manifold (engine fully warm), to know if idle drops or if plugging it causes idle to return to normal. The effect on one bike may differ from another, perhaps due to carbon build-up, a saturated evap canister, etc.

5. Manual pages 5-74 and 5-75 cover IACV (symptoms seem to match): There is a caution about cleaning before removal to prevent debris in the IACV passage(s)...therefore, any debris would be a concern. Popgun also suggested that any warpage of the plastic intake may interfere with IACV operation. A stepper motor does not provide feedback to programmed movement. A clearance check should be done when replacing.

Note the symptoms/fail safe function of all DTC on pages 5-15 and 5-16 of FSM. Focus on the IACV.

The IACV is 16430-MJF-D01

http://www.2wheelpros.com/oem-parts/2014-honda-cb1100-throttle-body-assembly.html#

There have been some TPS or TPS wire/connector issues. However, consider this: Each time the entire throttle body assembly was replaced the problem was reported to be cured. This replaced TPS, IACV and provided a clean throttle body (all new vacuum hoses & fittings?), including the IACV port(s). Deduction: TPS checked OK, so what is left?

At this time, if the purge valve is not an issue, I would focus on the IACV, starting with checking the electrical connector. If no joy, then remove and clean IACV passages. Due to the labor involved, probably also replace the IACV...although that would not allow proof that cleaning solved the issue.

For IACV port cleaning, use throttle body cleaner, not carb cleaner, due to contact with plastics.

 

[SportsterDoc]

Thank you to all you great guys who are assisting to solve this problem. I put about 65 miles on the bike yesterday. The slow idle came, and went. Sometimes it is more severe that others, like when the engine was stalling on Saturday; yesterday it was not very severe (it worked back up to a normal idle in about 5 seconds). I listened for the IACV sound yesterday, and there was none. Something else I discovered, turning the bike off with the key and restarting it seems to "temporarily" resolve the low idle issue.

Do I have to remove the entire throttle body assembly from the bike to replace the IACV? I thought this is what the factory service manual said. Does this vale operate by rotating, or by traveling inward and outward?

I will replace my IACV and see if this works. However, my VFR800 is in pieces in the garage because I am rebuild the forks and replacing the steering head bearings, so I have to finish that job first.

Dave, Popgun suggested that about a year ago (CB1100 idle speed stability thread), but before you do, unplug it, clean the connector and re-plug it. Also check for any damage to the wires going into the connector.

For those who replaced the IACV, without success, it may be due to a peripheral issue, such as connector, wiring or obstructed ports controlled by the IACV.

Below was posted 27 Dec (CB1100 idle speed stability thread). You can check off what has been done and what may remain:

Suggestions if you experience low/high idle issues:

1. Check for active codes, per page 5-12 & 5-13 of the Factory Service Manual, checking the codes lists on pages 5-15 & 5-16

2. Check for stored codes, per page 5-14 of the FSM

3. If no codes, then insure that there is no vacuum leak. An unlit propane torch applying propane to intake areas will detect a leak by listening for a change in idle speed. Check vacuum hoses and fittings, one 4 way (17201-MCJ-003, $7) and one 5 way (17201-MCZ-003, $5.60), then snug all 8 clamps from throttle bodies to intake.

A. Disconnect Throttle Position Sensor connector (engine OFF), clean contacts (contact cleaner available at Home Depot or Lowes, etc.), check for damaged wiring and reconnect. GO FOR A RIDE. If issue persists, continue

B. Disconnect Idle Air Control Valve, clean contacts, check for damaged wiring and reconnect. GO FOR A RIDE. If issue persists, continue

C. Follow TPS diagnostics per pages 5-23 thru 5-25 of the FSM. Note comments in posts 615, 618 & 622, especially see Max's post 632 regarding TPS output test in CB1100 idle speed stability thread. If output is not 0.5 VDC, loosen fasteners (ignition on, engine NOT running) and rotate TPS to obtain 0.5 VDC, throttle closed. After adjusting TPS throttle closed output, do a throttle calibration with ignition on, engine NOT running, by SLOWLY opening and closing throttle, 2-3 times. GO FOR A RIDE. If issue persists, continue

D. Follow IACV diagnostics per pages 5-74 & 5-75 of the FSM. If OK, then remove IACV, clean IACV port and check for unobstructed travel. If not OK, IACV (16430-MJF-D01) is $119.13 from Honda. GO FOR A RIDE. If issue persists, continue

E. Follow EOT (Engine Oil Temperature Sensor) diagnostics per 5-21 of FSM, particularly resistance value of 2.4 to 2.9 Kohms (2,400 to 2,900 ohms) at 20C / 68 F. If not OK, EOT sensor (37750-KPH-701) is $34.56 from Honda. GO FOR A RIDE. If issue persists, re-check the FSM diagnostics. Note that a faulty ECM is a possibility, albeit rare. The only time I recall a failed ECM on a Sportster, was due to an internal 5 VDC sensor power supply failure.

The EOT (Engine Oil Temperature) sensor and IACV (idle Air Control Valve) are available from Honda. The Honda Rune Forum has posted a TPS replacement for the Keihin JT6H TPS: 16060-MBZ-A11, $114.29 from honda. This is for a 2006 CB600F. The Rune Forum posted that this sensor is a Keihin JT6H, but we have not yet verified compatability.

For non-USA owners, check that the latest ECM program is installed by your dealer.

The valve works by rotating. Do you have a service manual? Check page 5-74 and 5-75 for a pic.

Be helpful if we had a better quality photo of the air ports. Cleaning the IACV is a common automotive issue and symptoms are similar to the low idle on the CB.

Meanwhile, Max has been coordinating the effort to narrow it down.

1. It does not seem to be a MAP issue, due to symptoms not matching.

2. It does not seem to be an EOT issue, per reports in the CB1100 idle speed stability thread, nor do symptoms match.

3. It does not seem to be a TPS issue, due to the recent testing guided by Max.

4. I remain concerned about a large intermittent vacuum loss, but that possibility seems to have been explored by Popgun's testing, per emails between Max, Popgun, Peter and I. Still would like to hear back from Dave on removing purge hose from purge valve to intake manifold (engine fully warm), to know if idle drops or if plugging it causes idle to return to normal. The effect on one bike may differ from another, perhaps due to carbon build-up, a saturated evap canister, etc.

5. Manual pages 5-74 and 5-75 cover IACV (symptoms seem to match): There is a caution about cleaning before removal to prevent debris in the IACV passage(s)...therefore, any debris would be a concern. Popgun also suggested that any warpage of the plastic intake may interfere with IACV operation. A stepper motor does not provide feedback to programmed movement. A clearance check should be done when replacing.

Note the symptoms/fail safe function of all DTC on pages 5-15 and 5-16 of FSM. Focus on the IACV.

The IACV is 16430-MJF-D01

http://www.2wheelpros.com/oem-parts/2014-honda-cb1100-throttle-body-assembly.html#

There have been some TPS or TPS wire/connector issues. However, consider this: Each time the entire throttle body assembly was replaced the problem was reported to be cured. This replaced TPS, IACV and provided a clean throttle body (all new vacuum hoses & fittings?), including the IACV port(s). Deduction: TPS checked OK, so what is left?

At this time, if the purge valve is not an issue, I would focus on the IACV, starting with checking the electrical connector. If no joy, then remove and clean IACV passages. Due to the labor involved, probably also replace the IACV...although that would not allow proof that cleaning solved the issue.

For IACV port cleaning, use throttle body cleaner, not carb cleaner, due to contact with plastics.

Dave, disregard this section. This morning I lifted the rear of my tank, removed the throttle body side covers and emailed you (copied Max, Popgun & Peter) photos of the IACV connected and disconnected. After I reassembled, I started it to be sure operation was normal. While cold, I pushed off the purge valve hose to manifold.

1. It made no difference in idle

2. The vacuum was weak (very small manifold orifice?)

Popgun had the same results with his bike, although I think his was fully warmed up. This appears to rule out the purge system, and in my opinion, leaves the focus on the IACV.

IACV connector disconnect was easy: Using right hand, press on connector locking tab with thumb and lift up.

 

[dave]

Hello to all you great guys working on this low idle problem! First, thank ALL of you for all of your support. I will clean the IACV electrical connection ASAP (this week) per the instructions emailed to me from Doc.

Been working O.T., and had to run to three different stores this evening to find a new battery for my P.C., and just got that replaced. It's after 10:00 PM and I just logged on. The VFR800 work can wait until I clean the CB1100 IACV connection, but I really need to finish the VFR fork rebuild and steering head bearings replacement before I tackle the CB1100 IACV replacement. The VFR is apart in the garage, and I am out of room to work.

What do you guys make of the constant sound (IACV cycling?) I heard when my bike was running seriously bad last Saturday, when it was stalling? Do you think maybe this indicates the valve was sticking? Does hearing the sound possibly mean that the sensors and ECM are operating correctly by sending a signal to the IACV?

What do you think about the condition I described where the low idle condition seems to be temporarily cured now when I turn the ignition key off and then back on again (I leave it off for about 5 seconds before turning it on). Does this disprove the sticking IACV theory?

The Factory Service Manual (FSM) has a procedure for checking the operation of the IACV (I read it several months ago, and don't remember the exactly details right now). If the valve is operating correctly (per the FSM check), is there a good way to determine if the valve is sticking? Can I insert it into the throttle body and make an accurate judgment?

Thanks again guys, I really appreciate all of you.

 

[max]

Hello to all you great guys working on this low idle problem! First, thank ALL of you for all of your support. I will clean the IACV electrical connection ASAP (this week) per the instructions emailed to me from Doc.

Been working O.T., and had to run to three different stores this evening to find a new battery for my P.C., and just got that replaced. It's after 10:00 PM and I just logged on. The VFR800 work can wait until I clean the CB1100 IACV connection, but I really need to finish the VFR fork rebuild and steering head bearings replacement before I tackle the CB1100 IACV replacement. The VFR is apart in the garage, and I am out of room to work.

What do you guys make of the constant sound (IACV cycling?) I heard when my bike was running seriously bad last Saturday, when it was stalling? Do you think maybe this indicates the valve was sticking? Does hearing the sound possibly mean that the sensors and ECM are operating correctly by sending a signal to the IACV?

What do you think about the condition I described where the low idle condition seems to be temporarily cured now when I turn the ignition key off and then back on again (I leave it off for about 5 seconds before turning it on). Does this disprove the sticking IACV theory?

The Factory Service Manual (FSM) has a procedure for checking the operation of the IACV (I read it several months ago, and don't remember the exactly details right now). If the valve is operating correctly (per the FSM check), is there a good way to determine if the valve is sticking? Can I insert it into the throttle body and make an accurate judgment?

Thanks again guys, I really appreciate all of you.

Hi Dave i copied and pasted this from post 146;

None of us have a clear idea of the exact part that is the cause of the fault, however there are some things that have not been done and that is cleaning all connectors to the sensors;
a map sensor 3 pole connector ( left hand side behind plastic cover ).
b iacv 4 pole connector ( right hand side under plastic cover )
c evap purge valve 2 pole connector( right hand side under throttle body )
d air temp sensor small 2 pole connector up high ( left hand side under cb1100 side cover ).

The most telling clue i found that there is still a noise coming from the iacv AFTER the engine stalled but ignition is still on, that means to me that the valve is still commanded to get to 1050 but is mechanically unable to do so.
Provided that i interpret that correctly.

If you switch the ignition off and on again you have also re-cycled the iacv every time the fuel pump is running on switch-on.

I have made a new thread about the iacv that may help you;
http://cb1100forum.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=12203
see what you think

So i would try as many of the abcd tips as you can, and yes, you have to lift the tank first and remove the plastic covers

Cheers

 

[SportsterDoc]

Hello to all you great guys working on this low idle problem! First, thank ALL of you for all of your support. I will clean the IACV electrical connection ASAP (this week) per the instructions emailed to me from Doc.

Been working O.T., and had to run to three different stores this evening to find a new battery for my P.C., and just got that replaced. It's after 10:00 PM and I just logged on. The VFR800 work can wait until I clean the CB1100 IACV connection, but I really need to finish the VFR fork rebuild and steering head bearings replacement before I tackle the CB1100 IACV replacement. The VFR is apart in the garage, and I am out of room to work.

What do you guys make of the constant sound (IACV cycling?) I heard when my bike was running seriously bad last Saturday, when it was stalling? Do you think maybe this indicates the valve was sticking? Does hearing the sound possibly mean that the sensors and ECM are operating correctly by sending a signal to the IACV?

What do you think about the condition I described where the low idle condition seems to be temporarily cured now when I turn the ignition key off and then back on again (I leave it off for about 5 seconds before turning it on). Does this disprove the sticking IACV theory?

The Factory Service Manual (FSM) has a procedure for checking the operation of the IACV (I read it several months ago, and don't remember the exactly details right now). If the valve is operating correctly (per the FSM check), is there a good way to determine if the valve is sticking? Can I insert it into the throttle body and make an accurate judgment?

Thanks again guys, I really appreciate all of you.

FSM pages 5-41 & 5-42 are condensed in post 22 of this thread:

http://cb1100forum.com/forum/showthread....203&page=3

To check for sticking, the IACV should be removed and the piston to port clearance checked and any air passages cleaned.

Suggest cycling connector, inspect wiring and do 5-41 to 5-42 tests before disassembly (air box is in the way of access to replacing IACV)

+1 / ditto to all aspects of Max's post 155.