The CB1100RS: Can it Really Outperform the Standard?

[feralchimp_imp]

Ulv is there a site someplace that sells the Ohlins ready to bolt up, or would this be a special-order part with some work to do by a suspension specialist to get them on?

 

[Ulvetanna_imp]

Thanks for "showing the work" behind the original set of points, Ulv, and I mostly agree with your conclusions. The fundamentals of the '13 and '14 are very good, and it can be made to handle just as well (or better) than a stock '17 RS with very few (if pricey) mods.

I'm still hoping the RS rear shocks will bolt up to a '14 std despite the swingarm change.

I am just about ready to buy the Ohlins HO 239 shocks; the Ikons helped quite a lot but I just can't get them precisely adjusted. I figure the Ohlins are a lot less than buying an entirely new motorcycle which itself will still need a whole bunch of fine-tuning and mods.

I am just about ready to buy the Ohlins HO 239 shocks; the Ikons helped quite a lot but I just can't get them precisely adjusted. I figure the Ohlins are a lot less than buying an entirely new motorcycle which itself will still need a whole bunch of fine-tuning and mods.
Great thread. For what ever it's worth when I had my Harley Night Rod I had Penske build a set of shocks and replace the cartridges in the forks, made a world of difference. Harley's from the factory are probably the worst POS when it comes to suspension. Now as far as the CB1100 STD goes, it handles just fine for me so I'm just going to leave it alone. I'm not a good enough rider that I need any more than what Honda has provided from the factory. You may want to check out Penske before you buy the Ohlins.

Good point, and Works Performance as well. Around $1500 is what it will cost for any of those.

Basically the Ohlins can be ordered up directly, just providing rider weight, type of bike, and riding style. Here's what I got from Ohlins USA:

Thank you for your interest in our Öhlins Products!

We will be happy to help! We unfortunately do NOT have a black line shock available for your bike, but we do have a fully adjustable model that has rebound adjustment, compression adjustment, and adjustable ride height (+10mm). The Part # is HO 239 and it shows to fit the 2010-2016 Honda CB 1100. To place an order for our products you would have to go through a dealer, we unfortunately do NOT sell to the general public. You can go to this link http://www.ohlinsusa.com/ohlins-dealers and type in your zip code to find a dealer within your area that can place the order for you!

All of our dealers have been instructed to get the Rider’s weight without gear and riding style (Street/Track Day/ or Race) so we can help choose the correct rated spring for you and your particular set up. Below is the pricing information on the HO 239, we do not have it in stock, it will have to be special ordered directly from Sweden (2-3 week turnaround time to us once the order has been placed). Let us know if you need anything else, or if you have any more questions or concerns.

HO 239 (Honda CB1100 / Type: S36PR1CL) Zero in stock
Retail price $1,529.00

Regards,
Matt

 

[feralchimp_imp]

Thanks for passing that along. $1500 is half the cost of a decently setup track SV, but them's the breaks.

 

[Ulvetanna_imp]

Thanks for passing that along. $1500 is half the cost of a decently setup track SV, but them's the breaks.

Yeah, any of the high-end stuff is around 1500. I am really not sure they can "transform" the bike because the basic design limits what twin shocks can do. I'm having second thoughts, especially since no one has leapt to the forefront singing their praises. They look cool but are they worth it? I'll do the forks first, Gold Valves and springs, and see where that takes me. That's about $400. Not bad considering the cost of the bike new.

 

[Django]

I had Wilbers on my Beemer for many years. Big improvement compared to stock suspension.
http://www.wilbers-shop.de/index.php?cl=...bu7&lang=1

 

[feralchimp_imp]

I have nothing but nice things to say about RaceTech gold valves.

 

[Ulvetanna_imp]

I have nothing but nice things to say about RaceTech gold valves.

 

[Ulvetanna_imp]

The more I ride the Standard, the more I think there is just absolutely nothing that can be done to really make the bike into a machine that can nibble at the supersport category, which is consistent with the Ferret's suggestion that the wheels and suspension on the RS model are just styling exercises.

The frame is a huge issue, there is quite a bit of flex there along with "yuuuge" amounts of driveline lash which cannot be dialed out no matter what shocks or forks or ECU mods are employed. There is a lot of flywheel, chain, and wheel inertia, it requires a very smooth throttle hand.

The stiffer the suspension, the worse a lot of the problems become. It's the length and weight of the bike, and the frame's inability to damp certain low-frequency oscillations (fore and aft pitching).

A lighter swingarm would certainly help with that; I could see some improvement from that piece. If the wheels were lighter, that would also improve things. The reason I think not is because the bike has not lost a single ounce of weight. It seems no heavier (the extra poundage is due only to the extra gasoline in the larger tank) so where's the weight? It has to still reside in the wheels, tires, and suspension, new they may be.

If Honda had shaved off even ten pounds from the bike with this new model, I'd be more sanguine.

I hit all my old favorite roads yesterday giving the Standard a nice workout and was convinced once again the bike needs to be set up loose, like a dirtbike, in order to work, and needs a smooth throttle hand. All that weight has to be cushioned. It works way better soft and moderately damped than it does stiff and firmly damped, unless the roads are very smooth. And I tend to ride on a lot of pretty rough roads. If that's true, and I think it is, then Ohlins or some other ultra-premium shocks are just wasted on the bike, because those things are likely to be "racetrack" stiff. That's why Honda gave the RS an Ohlins look-alike, but without the performance. I don't think I'll be spending any money on shocks; the Ikons, adjusted properly, are as much as can properly enhance this bike in its current form. Anything else, like the 180 rear tire, is just overdoing it.

Speaking of the 180, wide tires just make rough roads worse. The RS is a Cafe Racer, I predict, in the true sense of the term, designed to be ridden from coffee house to coffee house.

If it is released, and I can get a good test ride and find out differently, I will probably buy one. If it's what I think it is, I'll be keepin' my Standard.

 

[the Ferret]

I din't suggest as much as question. Look, it's still going to be approx 90 hp and 555 pounds, and that is a lot of mass to be flipping side to side. The 17" wheels will make it accept premium rubber but in stock form will it really be able to take advantage of that? The front and rear suspension is still oem spec Showa built for an imaginary "average" rider of what? 5'9 185 pounds, riding in average conditons. Honda knows this is no racer. They sell the CBR1000RR for that, and maybe a new RSV or something. This is merely a show piece for people who wish they were racers. Very cool, but still not a ginsu knife even if it looks like one.

Over on MCD they are reporting on a new Euro Kawasaki Z1000R with an " Ohlin" remote adjustment shock, and the bike is wearing Ohlins stickers on it, but as pointed out by one of the readers " No compression damping adjustment on the S46DR1S shock, and basic internal reservoir design. I don’t see a huge advantage over the standard rear shock once the preload is dialed in (apart from being gold and shiny)."

Even though it is an "Ohlin", which carries a premium name, it is still built to oem/mass production specs, which I fear may be the case with the Showa units on the RS. Fancy suit on an ordinary Joe.

Not saying this won't be a desirable motorcycle for the right consumer, and I'm thrilled Honda is continuing to do something with the mill, but I don't think I'd buy one thinking I can go hunt down guys on GSXR's and BMW S1000's and try and embarrass them in the canyons.

The more I ride the Standard, the more I think there is just absolutely nothing that can be done to really make the bike into a machine that can nibble at the supersport category, which is consistent with the Ferret's suggestion that the wheels and suspension on the RS model are just styling exercises.

The frame is a huge issue, there is quite a bit of flex there along with "yuuuge" amounts of driveline lash which cannot be dialed out no matter what shocks or forks or ECU mods are employed. There is a lot of flywheel, chain, and wheel inertia, it requires a very smooth throttle hand.

The stiffer the suspension, the worse a lot of the problems become. It's the length and weight of the bike, and the frame's inability to damp certain low-frequency oscillations (fore and aft pitching).

A lighter swingarm would certainly help with that; I could see some improvement from that piece. If the wheels were lighter, that would also improve things. The reason I think not is because the bike has not lost a single ounce of weight. It seems no heavier (the extra poundage is due only to the extra gasoline in the larger tank) so where's the weight? It has to still reside in the wheels, tires, and suspension, new they may be.

If Honda had shaved off even ten pounds from the bike with this new model, I'd be more sanguine.

I hit all my old favorite roads yesterday giving the Standard a nice workout and was convinced once again the bike needs to be set up loose, like a dirtbike, in order to work, and needs a smooth throttle hand. All that weight has to be cushioned. It works way better soft and moderately damped than it does stiff and firmly damped, unless the roads are very smooth. And I tend to ride on a lot of pretty rough roads. If that's true, and I think it is, then Ohlins or some other ultra-premium shocks are just wasted on the bike, because those things are likely to be "racetrack" stiff. That's why Honda gave the RS an Ohlins look-alike, but without the performance. I don't think I'll be spending any money on shocks; the Ikons, adjusted properly, are as much as can properly enhance this bike in its current form. Anything else, like the 180 rear tire, is just overdoing it.

Speaking of the 180, wide tires just make rough roads worse. The RS is a Cafe Racer, I predict, in the true sense of the term, designed to be ridden from coffee house to coffee house.

If it is released, and I can get a good test ride and find out differently, I will probably buy one. If it's what I think it is, I'll be keepin' my Standard.

Which is something I have said all along, set it up rather soft, ride smoothly using a very smooth throttle hand, rolling on and off the throttle, rather than snapping throttle hand open and shut, choose your apexes wisely to avoid having to lift and flip and the bike will satisfy. In other words, ride more like Lorenzo than Marquez.

 

[Ulvetanna_imp]

I din't suggest as much as question. Look, it's still going to be approx 90 hp and 555 pounds, and that is a lot of mass to be flipping side to side. The 17" wheels will make it accept premium rubber but in stock form will it really be able to take advantage of that? The front and rear suspension is still oem spec Showa built for an imaginary "average" rider of what? 5'9 185 pounds, riding in average conditons. Honda knows this is no racer. They sell the CBR1000RR for that, and maybe a new RSV or something. This is merely a show piece for people who wish they were racers. Very cool, but still not a ginsu knife even if it looks like one.

Over on MCD they are reporting on a new Euro Kawasaki Z1000R with an " Ohlin" remote adjustment shock, and the bike is wearing Ohlins stickers on it, but as pointed out by one of the readers " No compression damping adjustment on the S46DR1S shock, and basic internal reservoir design. I don’t see a huge advantage over the standard rear shock once the preload is dialed in (apart from being gold and shiny)."

Even though it is an "Ohlin", which carries a premium name, it is still built to oem/mass production specs, which I fear may be the case with the Showa units on the RS. Fancy suit on an ordinary Joe.

Not saying this won't be a desirable motorcycle for the right consumer, and I'm thrilled Honda is continuing to do something with the mill, but I don't think I'd buy one thinking I can go hunt down guys on GSXR's and BMW S1000's and try and embarrass them in the canyons.

The more I ride the Standard, the more I think there is just absolutely nothing that can be done to really make the bike into a machine that can nibble at the supersport category, which is consistent with the Ferret's suggestion that the wheels and suspension on the RS model are just styling exercises.

The frame is a huge issue, there is quite a bit of flex there along with "yuuuge" amounts of driveline lash which cannot be dialed out no matter what shocks or forks or ECU mods are employed. There is a lot of flywheel, chain, and wheel inertia, it requires a very smooth throttle hand.

The stiffer the suspension, the worse a lot of the problems become. It's the length and weight of the bike, and the frame's inability to damp certain low-frequency oscillations (fore and aft pitching).

A lighter swingarm would certainly help with that; I could see some improvement from that piece. If the wheels were lighter, that would also improve things. The reason I think not is because the bike has not lost a single ounce of weight. It seems no heavier (the extra poundage is due only to the extra gasoline in the larger tank) so where's the weight? It has to still reside in the wheels, tires, and suspension, new they may be.

If Honda had shaved off even ten pounds from the bike with this new model, I'd be more sanguine.

I hit all my old favorite roads yesterday giving the Standard a nice workout and was convinced once again the bike needs to be set up loose, like a dirtbike, in order to work, and needs a smooth throttle hand. All that weight has to be cushioned. It works way better soft and moderately damped than it does stiff and firmly damped, unless the roads are very smooth. And I tend to ride on a lot of pretty rough roads. If that's true, and I think it is, then Ohlins or some other ultra-premium shocks are just wasted on the bike, because those things are likely to be "racetrack" stiff. That's why Honda gave the RS an Ohlins look-alike, but without the performance. I don't think I'll be spending any money on shocks; the Ikons, adjusted properly, are as much as can properly enhance this bike in its current form. Anything else, like the 180 rear tire, is just overdoing it.

Speaking of the 180, wide tires just make rough roads worse. The RS is a Cafe Racer, I predict, in the true sense of the term, designed to be ridden from coffee house to coffee house.

If it is released, and I can get a good test ride and find out differently, I will probably buy one. If it's what I think it is, I'll be keepin' my Standard.

Which is something I have said all along, set it up rather soft, ride smoothly using a very smooth throttle hand, rolling on and off the throttle, rather than snapping throttle hand open and shut, choose your apexes wisely to avoid having to lift and flip and the bike will satisfy. In other words, ride more like Lorenzo than Marquez.

Which is something I have said all along, set it up rather soft, ride smoothly using a very smooth throttle hand, rolling on and off the throttle, rather than snapping throttle hand open and shut, choose your apexes wisely to avoid having to lift and flip and the bike will satisfy. In other words, ride more like Lorenzo than Marquez. Well, I just could not be more in agreement with you on all accounts. Some people think firmer is better but not for public roads. The bikes I ride on the road are all set up pretty soft. They have decent suspension, my FZ8 has the least expensive Ohlins shock (the stock shock was horrible) and yeah, it could be better, but it's not to the point where I can justify spending another nickel. Same with the forks, the fork oil is thicker, preload's fine. Would Gold Valves be better? Yeah, but not enough to keep me from hanging on to my money, or rather, putting a hit my credit card.

Just an aside, those shocks are made by Showa, there's nothing made by Ohlins on this bike. Showa makes some very good suspension pieces, though, so that isn't necessarily a downside.

The other part of this is tires, use good tires, keep them at the proper pressure, and don't run 'em down past the wear indicators.

As you said, at 555 wet and only around 80 HP at the rear wheel, limited cornering clearance (enough, though) it's a cosmetic change, but one that will really help sales.

I think this comment by Rocket-Garage really describes the bike well:

With a keener edge to its appeal and performance, the CB1100 RS is a perfect machine to cut through the city in style, and cut loose on winding roads at weekends. It exudes exquisite engineering that draws in the observer, and is also a platform ripe for customization, and ready for an owner’s imagination.

I just installed stainless steel brake lines, the Galfer 3-line kit, on mine. May try to get in a test ride today.

 

[LongRanger_imp]

I haven't ridden or even seen an RS, but I completely agree with you guys. When I see this bike, Moto Guzzi V7 Racer comes to mind...

 

[nhawk7504_imp]

Got my Ohlins here for my Sportster in 2009: motorcyclemetal.com - He custom builds for any twin shock bike and weight of the bike and rider.

Thanks for "showing the work" behind the original set of points, Ulv, and I mostly agree with your conclusions. The fundamentals of the '13 and '14 are very good, and it can be made to handle just as well (or better) than a stock '17 RS with very few (if pricey) mods.

I'm still hoping the RS rear shocks will bolt up to a '14 std despite the swingarm change.

I am just about ready to buy the Ohlins HO 239 shocks; the Ikons helped quite a lot but I just can't get them precisely adjusted. I figure the Ohlins are a lot less than buying an entirely new motorcycle which itself will still need a whole bunch of fine-tuning and mods.

I am just about ready to buy the Ohlins HO 239 shocks; the Ikons helped quite a lot but I just can't get them precisely adjusted. I figure the Ohlins are a lot less than buying an entirely new motorcycle which itself will still need a whole bunch of fine-tuning and mods.

 

[use2b_imp]

Ulvetanna I can tell your a smart man and i personally enjoy reading the science you use which teaches me a lot.
being old school [ and Redneck ] i judged everything from a seat of the pants perspective just like lowering the Busa to keep the front end down on launches . I never wanted to offend anyone with my feeling that the CB1100 is limited by both frame and engine design but is everything i expected it to be and handles better than my CB750's .

 

[rboe]

The CB was designed to be a retro standard for old farts that had given up on their bad habits and wanted to stay in the wind on a bike that would not punish their backs, cramp their knees or be willing to get their license suspended.

It does that very well.

For other adventures I'm of the opinion you would be better off with a second bike.

 

[Ulvetanna_imp]

The CB was designed to be a retro standard for old farts that had given up on their bad habits and wanted to stay in the wind on a bike that would not punish their backs, cramp their knees or be willing to get their license suspended.

It does that very well.

For other adventures I'm of the opinion you would be better off with a second bike.

lol, the CB1100 is my "second bike" at least philosophically. I just think it handles and performs way better than it ever should, especially if you're a smooth rider. What fun, I can't stop riding it here lately, just put on a second brand-new Road Attack CR rear tire, need to go see if it still works.

Although based on the thread from superhawk about the monkeybutt seat I think a few mods are in order and let's not exaggerate the leg room, this thing has terrible leg room even for me at 5' 7" and 30" inseam. Low seat height though, I like that.

Ulvetanna I can tell your a smart man and i personally enjoy reading the science you use which teaches me a lot.
being old school [ and Redneck ] i judged everything from a seat of the pants perspective just like lowering the Busa to keep the front end down on launches . I never wanted to offend anyone with my feeling that the CB1100 is limited by both frame and engine design but is everything i expected it to be and handles better than my CB750's .

ha ha, feeling older school every day...what are you doing on that 'Busa, my man? Act yer age! Now lemme see where is my '15 ZX-10R...?:rofl:

 

[LongRanger_imp]

The CB was designed to be a retro standard for old farts that had given up on their bad habits and wanted to stay in the wind on a bike that would not punish their backs, cramp their knees or be willing to get their license suspended.

It does that very well.

For other adventures I'm of the opinion you would be better off with a second bike.

lol, the CB1100 is my "second bike" at least philosophically. I just think it handles and performs way better than it ever should, especially if you're a smooth rider. What fun, I can't stop riding it here lately, just put on a second brand-new Road Attack CR rear tire, need to go see if it still works.

Although based on the thread from superhawk about the monkeybutt seat I think a few mods are in order and let's not exaggerate the leg room, this thing has terrible leg room even for me at 5' 7" and 30" inseam. Low seat height though, I like that.

Ulvetanna I can tell your a smart man and i personally enjoy reading the science you use which teaches me a lot.
being old school [ and Redneck ] i judged everything from a seat of the pants perspective just like lowering the Busa to keep the front end down on launches . I never wanted to offend anyone with my feeling that the CB1100 is limited by both frame and engine design but is everything i expected it to be and handles better than my CB750's .

ha ha, feeling older school every day...what are you doing on that 'Busa, my man? Act yer age! Now lemme see where is my '15 ZX-10R...?:rofl:

This must be an individual thing. I'm 6'6", 36" inseam, and find the seat height and leg room to be perfectly acceptable.