The Case of the Too-powerful bike

[postoak_imp]

I created a post along these lines a long time ago when I got my CB1100 and I've had more time to think about it since. It seems like everybody always wants more power - more, more, more! Most reviews on youtube are like that -- "the bike could use more power and a sixth gear". Or if the reviewer doesn't say it, the commenters will.

I got sucked down that same path but unlike others, I'm willing to admit that something went wrong. These more powerful bikes just aren't as much fun to ride as less powerful ones.

I think it is because you can't use all the rev range. I can't afford to buy a lower power bike to make the experiment (although I thought about it, something along the lines of a Moto Guzzi V7 iii or a Kawasaki W800) but my current thinking is that what I enjoyed in my old Nighthawk 750 and missed in my later bikes is the ability to wind up through the revs in each gear.

With my current FJR1300 I find no occasion to ever go above 3500 RPM. If I do wind out in first gear, I'm done unless I'm entering the interstate because that takes me to 60 MPH. The CB1100 was pretty much the same.

Has anybody else had these thoughts and switched to a lower power bike and did the fun return? Don't get me wrong, I still enjoy riding but in this one aspect, not as much as I used to.

 

[GoldOxide_imp]

The CB1100 definitely satisfies with the option to wind-up.

I am not sure everyone can live everyday winding things up - I could be wrong though. Like implied, who is going to wind-up in traffic congestion?

I lower powered alternative bike is great for aspects of practical agility, economy, lower cost of ownership, and depending on model - a lower effort of cosmetics maintenance. They may take a little longer to get up to speed, however, it may also save you from yourself.

 

[the Ferret]

Modern liter bikes have ridiculous amounts of horsepower, I agree. I never use all the power of my CB or my FJR, rarely over 4000 rpms, but I dont miss running it up into the higher rpms. As a matter of fact I also have a CB 500x in my garage which I can ride whenever I want. Every time I do ride it all I can think of is how under powered it is . It doesnt start making any power until 4000 rpms, everytime I slow for a corner even a little I have to downshift once or twice, to make any headway coming out the other side. Some guys enjoy that dance. Personally I like riding the torque wave of a big bore bike and I'm fine with wasting a little ( or a lot ) of top end horsepower. When getting on the freeway, or in a passing situation, I like knowing I have more than enough. Nothing like needing a boost in speed, twisting the throttle and everything you need is right there. Actually to me the CB 1100 at only mid 80 hp is a good compromise.

Every once in awhile I like to test ride a 250-300 cc bike, one that you can use all the power on, to remind me just how much work it is to ride a small motorcycle.

 

[postoak_imp]

Goldoxide - I think you missed my point. You *can't* wind up the CB1100 anymore than you can the FJR1300. Can anybody remind me what speed you hit if you take first gear to redline on the CB?

Ferret - your CB500X sounds like it might be fun to ride for me. But I'm not willing to buy one to make the experiment!

 

[alprider]

take a monkey.... LOL....

 

[LongRanger_imp]

Yes! The old adage "it's more fun to ride a slow bike fast than a fast bike slow" certainly holds true for me. My F800GT, with its measly 90 hp, is more than capable and a blast to ride. So is my 10 hp Monkey. You may want to try a CBR250R just for fun. In reality, it's all one really needs on public roads, and supremely easy and unintimidating to live with.

 

[the Ferret]

speed is relative and largely a matter of gearing (although modern electronics alter that fact a bit). Your CB1100 could run 150 mph if geared appropriately, even with the ecu limitations, but it might take a while to get there. ECU flashed CB's have reportedly run 134 mph. I guess a proper question (and totally rhetorical) would what top speed is fast enough? and how fast does it need to get get there?

FYI in 1948 a stock 998cc Vincent Black Shadow with 55 hp would run 125 mph. Rollie Free's Vincent with 65 HP went 150.313 at Bonneville

 

[postoak_imp]

Bikes I considered (but won't be getting now that I've decided to go ahead with the clutch upgrade on my FJR) were the W800, the MG V7 Stone III (really like the quirkiness of that bike!), and the Suzuki TU250x). All 3 of those were on the retro list I compiled.

 

[pdedse]

I think part of the equation is what many mc enthusiasts will say to explain owning more than one motorcycle: "right tool for the job". Obviously, the tool is the bike and the job is what environment we ride in. Sometimes the environment makes riding X type of bike pointless.

I have the opportunity to spend up to 2 months in a rural area of Costa Rica every other year. There's a paved, curvy, winding road that heads down to the coast, and there's a paved, curvy, winding road that heads up and over a mountain pass to a city. That's about it for paved roads that go anywhere. The curves are relentless and tight and traffic often slows to a crawl because heavy trucks have to use the "hiway" as well. Having any bike over 300cc is overkill. If I had the cb1100 there, I'd never use 4th gear. My bike of choice--a Honda CGL125. I get to rap that thing up to it's max of 60mph every now and then, but most often it's 20-40mph, and I get to use quite a bit of the rpm range. It doesn't feel like too much work for me, it feels like the right bike for the job. When I tell CR friends I have a 1100cc bike in the U.S....you can just tell they're doing some mental math that doesn't add up.

I think the CB1100 has a good balance. More power / torque is always there when I want--although I understand maybe not for everybody. But I like the low fatigue factor when I do long trips with great hiway stretches where I can lock in at 70mph and barely break, what, 3000rpm? It let's me enjoy the ride.

 

[GoldOxide_imp]

Goldoxide - I think you missed my point. You *can't* wind up the CB1100 anymore than you can the FJR1300. Can anybody remind me what speed you hit if you take first gear to redline on the CB?

Ferret - your CB500X sounds like it might be fun to ride for me. But I'm not willing to buy one to make the experiment!

No point missed postoak. I wouldn't change my words. I believe we have differing perspectives on the matter. My point is I don't "wind" a lesser tiered bike. I feel the CB winds just fine.

 

[postoak_imp]

You consider the CB1100 "lesser tiered"?

Of course you can wind the CB up, but you are going so fast, even in first gear, that it is mostly illegal to do so.

 

[GoldOxide_imp]

You consider the CB1100 "lesser tiered"?

Of course you can wind the CB up, but you are going so fast, even in first gear, that it is mostly illegal to do so.

Of course, and in the context of performance, the CB1100 is definitely lesser tiered compared to super sport models.

However, it was higher-tiered in the context of a more sedate peers (e.g. a thumper, a scooter, many upright street bikes in the the 650 to 850 engine size class). This was my frame of reference.

 

[chync_imp]

I have a slightly different perspective on the subject but it’s in the same vein.

I bought my cb1100 originally because I thought the retro look and build style would make a good platform for creating a custom modern retro build. And it did. Very easy to modify and work on.

In the process I ended up making quite a few performance upgrades. Performance was never my initial goal but each upgrade made such a noticeable difference I kept going. And it was just fun.

I ended up reducing the weight of the bike, adding hp with intake, exhaust, and fuel mapping mods, increasing acceleration with gearing and 17” wheels, upgrading to race level suspension. All that also required improving braking with ss lines and aggressive pads. The bike will flat out fly off the line and it’s able to handle aggressive turns safely.

I live in North Carolina and spend all of my time riding in the mountains on some of the the best and most challenging roads for sport bikes. As I learned how to push the bike further I realized just how much work it was taming all of that weight. Handling the power on it takes some finesse. Not nearly as much finesse as a modern super sport liter bike but I learned it was quite capable of losing rear grip if using too much throttle in a turn and it will power wheelie in first gear under hard acceleration.

But I find managing all that weight while trying to ride it like a sport bike is what seems like wasted effort. All that torque and power combined with the performance mods let me do things on it that it certainly wasn’t designed for and that I probably shouldn’t do anyway.

This year I set out to find a sport bike to satisfy my need for fun mountain riding that is appropriately suited for street and some highway riding.

My requirements were:

- sport or sport naked oriented design
- a more relaxed riding position than a super sport
- comfortable enough to do some touring
- enough power to be fun without requiring moto gp skills to handle
- enough acceleration at highway speeds to be safe from people driving mobile phone booths
- suspension that can handle twisty mountain roads
- something that won’t kill you for using most of the throttle
- least amount of weight that meets the other requirements
- preference for new over used
- under $10k

I looked at the 600cc and 800cc range of new bikes and I think from a power perspective I would have preferred an 800cc machine but the models I liked were sport tourers that weren’t light.

I ended up buying a 2019 Honda CBR650R and so far it’s been perfect. It seems to have a very usable power range that extends only just beyond reasonable fun. It doesn’t need electronic power control to keep you safe. Stock it weighs 450lbs and I have already been able to reduce that further. For comparison the 2017 CBR1000RR fireblade weighs 430lbs wet at nearly 200 hp. That’s insane when compared to the cb1100.

Riding the 650 on the same roads and at the same speed as the 1100 feels like gliding rather than keeping a barge in check. I have ridden an 8 hour day with no pain in my wrists or knees. And I feel confident and safe on the highway with its ability to accelerate out of harms way.

I definitely agree that there are bikes meant for the track out on the street for which there really is no safe way to use all available capabilities. Personally I wouldn’t put the cb1100 in that category but it certainly is possible to get it to do things it wasn’t intended to do with that big engine.

I’m loving the 1100 for what it does best and the 650 for spirited riding in the twisties. I’m a firm believer in the right tool for the job.

I can’t say the 650 is more fun than the 1100 across the board but it’s definitely more fun in super curvy roads.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Stichill]

There are several things that can happen when HP goes up:
[ul] [li]Bike gets heavier[/li] [li]Bike gets longer[/li] [li]Bike gets taller[/li] [li]Fuel tank gets bigger[/li] [li]Tires get wider[/li] [li]Brakes get larger / lever effort increases[/li] [li]Clutch gets heavier / lever effort increases[/li] [li]Engine heat increases
[/li][/ul] What this all means when put together is that a big part of the fun of a motorcycle — nimbleness — is lost in the effort to generate and manage higher HP.

I seem to always have more fun riding my CBR250R than I do any other bike. Yes, I've had bikes that are more comfortable or have much better passing power, but nothing to me so far beats a small-bore bike for riding engagement. What ferret calls "work" — twisting the throttle repeatedly and shifting up/down in response to conditions to manage speed and momentum — is what I call rider involvement in the craft of motorcycling.

 

[chync_imp]

I come across guys quite often riding modified Grom's on the same roads I do and I never meet one that doesn't look absolutely thrilled. Same goes for the guys on supermoto bikes.

 

[Houtman_imp]

I come across guys quite often riding modified Grom's on the same roads I do and I never meet one that doesn't look absolutely thrilled. Same goes for the guys on supermoto bikes.

Your CBR 650 R is a great looking bike !

 

[postoak_imp]

There are several things that can happen when HP goes up:
[ul] [li]Bike gets heavier[/li] [li]Bike gets longer[/li] [li]Bike gets taller[/li] [li]Fuel tank gets bigger[/li] [li]Tires get wider[/li] [li]Brakes get larger / lever effort increases[/li] [li]Clutch gets heavier / lever effort increases[/li] [li]Engine heat increases
[/li][/ul] What this all means when put together is that a big part of the fun of a motorcycle — nimbleness — is lost in the effort to generate and manage higher HP.

I seem to always have more fun riding my CBR250R than I do any other bike. Yes, I've had bikes that are more comfortable or have much better passing power, but nothing to me so far beats a small-bore bike for riding engagement. What ferret calls "work" — twisting the throttle repeatedly and shifting up/down in response to conditions to manage speed and momentum — is what I call rider involvement in the craft of motorcycling.

Your last sentence resonates with me, especially the last phrase.

 

[GoldOxide_imp]

I have a slightly different perspective on the subject but it’s in the same vein.

I bought my cb1100 originally because I thought the retro look and build style would make a good platform for creating a custom modern retro build. And it did. Very easy to modify and work on.

In the process I ended up making quite a few performance upgrades. Performance was never my initial goal but each upgrade made such a noticeable difference I kept going. And it was just fun.

I ended up reducing the weight of the bike, adding hp with intake, exhaust, and fuel mapping mods, increasing acceleration with gearing and 17” wheels, upgrading to race level suspension. All that also required improving braking with ss lines and aggressive pads. The bike will flat out fly off the line and it’s able to handle aggressive turns safely.

I live in North Carolina and spend all of my time riding in the mountains on some of the the best and most challenging roads for sport bikes. As I learned how to push the bike further I realized just how much work it was taming all of that weight. Handling the power on it takes some finesse. Not nearly as much finesse as a modern super sport liter bike but I learned it was quite capable of losing rear grip if using too much throttle in a turn and it will power wheelie in first gear under hard acceleration.

But I find managing all that weight while trying to ride it like a sport bike is what seems like wasted effort. All that torque and power combined with the performance mods let me do things on it that it certainly wasn’t designed for and that I probably shouldn’t do anyway.

This year I set out to find a sport bike to satisfy my need for fun mountain riding that is appropriately suited for street and some highway riding.

My requirements were:

- sport or sport naked oriented design
- a more relaxed riding position than a super sport
- comfortable enough to do some touring
- enough power to be fun without requiring moto gp skills to handle
- enough acceleration at highway speeds to be safe from people driving mobile phone booths
- suspension that can handle twisty mountain roads
- something that won’t kill you for using most of the throttle
- least amount of weight that meets the other requirements
- preference for new over used
- under $10k

I looked at the 600cc and 800cc range of new bikes and I think from a power perspective I would have preferred an 800cc machine but the models I liked were sport tourers that weren’t light.

I ended up buying a 2019 Honda CBR650R and so far it’s been perfect. It seems to have a very usable power range that extends only just beyond reasonable fun. It doesn’t need electronic power control to keep you safe. Stock it weighs 450lbs and I have already been able to reduce that further. For comparison the 2017 CBR1000RR fireblade weighs 430lbs wet at nearly 200 hp. That’s insane when compared to the cb1100.

Riding the 650 on the same roads and at the same speed as the 1100 feels like gliding rather than keeping a barge in check. I have ridden an 8 hour day with no pain in my wrists or knees. And I feel confident and safe on the highway with its ability to accelerate out of harms way.

I definitely agree that there are bikes meant for the track out on the street for which there really is no safe way to use all available capabilities. Personally I wouldn’t put the cb1100 in that category but it certainly is possible to get it to do things it wasn’t intended to do with that big engine.

I’m loving the 1100 for what it does best and the 650 for spirited riding in the twisties. I’m a firm believer in the right tool for the job.

I can’t say the 650 is more fun than the 1100 across the board but it’s definitely more fun in super curvy roads.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Great write-up chync.

I have a slightly different perspective on the subject but it’s in the same vein.

I bought my cb1100 originally because I thought the retro look and build style would make a good platform for creating a custom modern retro build. And it did. Very easy to modify and work on.

In the process I ended up making quite a few performance upgrades. Performance was never my initial goal but each upgrade made such a noticeable difference I kept going. And it was just fun.

I ended up reducing the weight of the bike, adding hp with intake, exhaust, and fuel mapping mods, increasing acceleration with gearing and 17” wheels, upgrading to race level suspension. All that also required improving braking with ss lines and aggressive pads. The bike will flat out fly off the line and it’s able to handle aggressive turns safely.

I live in North Carolina and spend all of my time riding in the mountains on some of the the best and most challenging roads for sport bikes. As I learned how to push the bike further I realized just how much work it was taming all of that weight. Handling the power on it takes some finesse. Not nearly as much finesse as a modern super sport liter bike but I learned it was quite capable of losing rear grip if using too much throttle in a turn and it will power wheelie in first gear under hard acceleration.

But I find managing all that weight while trying to ride it like a sport bike is what seems like wasted effort. All that torque and power combined with the performance mods let me do things on it that it certainly wasn’t designed for and that I probably shouldn’t do anyway.

This year I set out to find a sport bike to satisfy my need for fun mountain riding that is appropriately suited for street and some highway riding.

My requirements were:

- sport or sport naked oriented design
- a more relaxed riding position than a super sport
- comfortable enough to do some touring
- enough power to be fun without requiring moto gp skills to handle
- enough acceleration at highway speeds to be safe from people driving mobile phone booths
- suspension that can handle twisty mountain roads
- something that won’t kill you for using most of the throttle
- least amount of weight that meets the other requirements
- preference for new over used
- under $10k

I looked at the 600cc and 800cc range of new bikes and I think from a power perspective I would have preferred an 800cc machine but the models I liked were sport tourers that weren’t light.

I ended up buying a 2019 Honda CBR650R and so far it’s been perfect. It seems to have a very usable power range that extends only just beyond reasonable fun. It doesn’t need electronic power control to keep you safe. Stock it weighs 450lbs and I have already been able to reduce that further. For comparison the 2017 CBR1000RR fireblade weighs 430lbs wet at nearly 200 hp. That’s insane when compared to the cb1100.

Riding the 650 on the same roads and at the same speed as the 1100 feels like gliding rather than keeping a barge in check. I have ridden an 8 hour day with no pain in my wrists or knees. And I feel confident and safe on the highway with its ability to accelerate out of harms way.

I definitely agree that there are bikes meant for the track out on the street for which there really is no safe way to use all available capabilities. Personally I wouldn’t put the cb1100 in that category but it certainly is possible to get it to do things it wasn’t intended to do with that big engine.

I’m loving the 1100 for what it does best and the 650 for spirited riding in the twisties. I’m a firm believer in the right tool for the job.

I can’t say the 650 is more fun than the 1100 across the board but it’s definitely more fun in super curvy roads.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

lol - indeed.

 

[the Ferret]

There are several things that can happen when HP goes up:
[ul] [li]Bike gets heavier[/li] [li]Bike gets longer[/li] [li]Bike gets taller[/li] [li]Fuel tank gets bigger[/li] [li]Tires get wider[/li] [li]Brakes get larger / lever effort increases[/li] [li]Clutch gets heavier / lever effort increases[/li] [li]Engine heat increases
[/li][/ul] What this all means when put together is that a big part of the fun of a motorcycle — nimbleness — is lost in the effort to generate and manage higher HP.

I seem to always have more fun riding my CBR250R than I do any other bike. Yes, I've had bikes that are more comfortable or have much better passing power, but nothing to me so far beats a small-bore bike for riding engagement. What ferret calls "work" — twisting the throttle repeatedly and shifting up/down in response to conditions to manage speed and momentum — is what I call rider involvement in the craft of motorcycling.

I can appreciate that. I really can. I've been there. Probably from 1965 up until the late 80s I was there. Can't imagine how many times I've twisted the throttle repeatedly, shifting up/down in response to conditions to manage speed and momentum. Hitting apexes, strafing turns, trail braking, side slipping, drafting, banging the swinging needle off the red line on the tach, braking hard, locking them up, sliding, counter steering. I'm certainly no stranger to the joy that kind of riding can provide to the so inclined.... BTDT a million times. Not to mention 10 years of racing Moto-X. I just ride a little differently now that I have a little age on me. I no longer need that extreme adrenelin rush to enjoy motorcycling. After 54 years of almost daily riding, I'm as happy now at 4000 rpms as I used to be at 9000 rpms. Don' t need the scares and close calls, being thankful for having survived that last fast run. It's why I appreciate bikes like the CB 1100 so much. It's a fun bike to ride easy. Shift if I want...don't shift if I don't feel like it. I don't have to work at riding, I just ride. Riding easier and enjoying it as much as ever.

 

[cooldrum_imp]

There's something about riding small bore bikes. In addition to my CB, I also ride a '67 Honda 305 Scrambler. Yep, it has open pipes (no snuff or nots) and is a hoot to ride. Redline is 9000 rpm and that little twin moves along as you stir that 4 speed tranny. You're able to use all that power and you really become engaged while riding. Plus, it's so light that you can move it around easily on the road. Funny how we thought full litre bikes were the ticket to pure enjoyment when the small bore bikes can deliver just as much fun depending on how and where you ride. It's about the ride now and not necessarily the destination on why I ride these days.