Shifting issue

[Cormanus]

So ... my 2011 CB1100 is 13 years old, has more than 150,000 kms on the clock, is still going strong, and I have no complaints. Except, when it's been ridden for a while, and the engine is really hot, and the bike is stationary, it become difficult to shift into neutral from 1st or 2nd. It can also require more effort than when the engine is cooler to shift from 2nd to 1st when stationary. I also think that when this occurs there is the faintest creep forward when the bike is in gear: it can require more effort to push it backwards than when it is in neutral.

Does anyone have any thoughts or suggestions?

 

[GoldOxide_imp]

Cannot say I had a gearbox issue, but I also hadn't accumulated 150000 kms on the CB1100 either.

However, many times after a long and hot freeway ride the lump was quite hot and other things took awhile to settle down like the fueling (difficult to keep RPM up at normal idle for a minute or so). I always wrote it off an components behind the lump as a bit toasted too.

Perhaps a Forum member with clutch maintenance experience will lean in with a comment?

 

[dave]

Constant mesh transmissions tend to be difficult, if not impossible, to shift when the bike is stationary. Both the primary drive and secondary (final) drive shafts need to be rotating for the gears to align the dogs and mesh freely. If your bike is experiencing a difference in shifting, then maybe your clutch is slightly dragging. How is the lever free play? How many miles since your last engine oil change? Put your bike on the center stand (if you have one), and start the engine. Hold the clutch in and and put the transmission into first gear. Does the rear wheel begin rotating? While still holding the clutch in, apply the rear break gently until the rear wheel stops rotating. Does it take a lot of breaking force to stop the wheel? You'll have to be the judge, but this is a good and simple test to determine if your clutch is dragging. If your clutch lever free play appears acceptable, I would do an engine oil change and see if that has any effect.

 

[Cormanus]

Thank you. Learning for me in both those activities.

 

[pekingduck]

First thing I'd check is the easiest, but not the likeliest. The pivot for the shift lever - clean and lube it.

Given the mileage, I would check the clutch center and clutch outer for notches caused by the clutch plates and friction discs rattling back and forth.

 

[Cormanus]

I don’t know if it’s relevant, but there are no issues when the engine is cold. It is not a problem until the bike has run for some time and is hot.

Is there a way to adjust the clutch engagement point? I could see nothing in the service manual.

 

[pekingduck]

No, there is no clutch actuation adjustment.

If the clutch center and outer have notching, the clutch plates and friction discs tend to ride in the notches. As they expand with heat, the notches can hold the plates and discs together slightly, resulting in slight clutch drag. This would have been a very gradual deterioration.

 

[pekingduck]

Here's a pic of a very badly worn basket.

 

[Cormanus]

Thanks, pekingduck.

 

[peterbaron]

So ... my 2011 CB1100 is 13 years old, has more than 150,000 kms on the clock, is still going strong, and I have no complaints. Except, when it's been ridden for a while, and the engine is really hot, and the bike is stationary, it become difficult to shift into neutral from 1st or 2nd. It can also require more effort than when the engine is cooler to shift from 2nd to 1st when stationary. I also think that when this occurs there is the faintest creep forward when the bike is in gear: it can require more effort to push it backwards than when it is in neutral.

Does anyone have any thoughts or suggestions?

All other members comments are good!

Based on your good observation, I would say you may have one to three combined or separate clutch issues:
1. the clutch plunger does not have required stroke/movement to completely disengage/separate clutch plates due to: air, contaminated fluid, clutch master pump/piston blow by or/and slave cylinder piston blow by, and this could be consider as hydraulics. Also check for wetness under the left side rear engine cover, not necessarily leak or dripping clutch fluid, would indicate slave master cylinder unnoticed weeping, fluid level lower than normal??, pull off the cover, if there is no leak, the clutch fluid reservoir should always maintain constant level.
2. you also may have an issue with worn brass/soft bush #2/parts - its seat becomes too deep by constantly being "attacked" by clutch master cylinder steel/hard rod and your clutch have a short stroke/movement

https://www.hondapartshouse.com/oemparts/a/hon/511a8d97f870022e4ccd324b/clutch-master-cylinder


3. as to the slave cylinder #8/parts, under the left rear engine cover, check if three M6x75 #26 parts - long bolts are intact, not loose or have stripped thread

https://www.hondapartshouse.com/oemparts/a/hon/511a8d78f870022e4ccd323f/left-rear-cover


Q: if you take off from the 2nd gear, do you fill clutch slippage?, if not your clutch plates should be OK
Q2: Clutch lever feels funny, spongy, weak..or different before this issue
Q3: Did you change engine oil or its brand

 

[Cormanus]

Thanks Peter. More help. Thank you.

To answer your questions:
[li]No. The bike is fine taking off in 2nd, although next time I'm out I might try it again.[/li] [li]No. The clutch lever feels fine. Doesn't feel as if there's any loss of pressure in the system.[/li] [li]If I'm honest I've had this problem a while and there have been several changes of oil.
[/li]
I suppose I'd better get out there and see whether I can change the fluid. Time to learn something new!

 

[max]

Considering all the other good advice we just checked my cb1100 80.000 km.
Rear wheel drag with clutch lever fully engaged to the handlebars and on centerstand; engine cold, difficult to rotate in first gear but gets better when it starts to move.
cb1000r in same situation; considerable easier to rotate.
cb550k much more difficult to rotate rear wheel.

Did notice the cb1100 gets a bit more difficult to get in neutral at traffic lights than before similar to cormanus.
Cb550k is almost impossible to get in neutral except when engine is cold????
cb1000r always gets in neutral any time without any effort.
cb1100 cold engine in first gear; bike starts to engage with thumb with from fully pulled in.

Looking at Pekingduck's picture i think he's on to it, the lower clutch plates in the "basket" move the least and the ones on top move the most distance so as to allow space for the lower ones to release contact, just my unqualified idea.

Could do a "basic tools required" clutch fluid replace video on youtube if that helps Cormanus.

 

[Cormanus]

Thanks max. What do you mean, ‘difficult to rotate’?

I have a syringe to empty out the reservoir and a bleeder bottle and hose, I understand bleeding lines, and I have a copy of the service manual to show me what to connect to, so I think I’ll be right for that part of the process. But I’ll let you know if reality proves daunting.

When I get to having to pull out the clutch, a video will be very handy.

 

[pekingduck]

When bleeding a hydraulic clutch, I found that bleeding it manually or with a pneumatic power bleeder, you have to put a lot of fluid through compared to a bleeding a brake caliper. That's because the hydraulic clutch handle does not "bottom out" as it would when a brake pads go solid against the rotor, and you're just mixing more fluid into a larger volume.

I have found that removing the clutch slave cylinder and using a simple C-clamp to restrict the piston movement will give the firm pressure you would have on a brake caliper, and evacuate all the old fluid much quicker.

 

[Cormanus]

There's no help for it once one starts asking questions. The extent of one's ignorance just becomes clearer. *Sigh*

I can see the logic of that, pekingduck. But how exactly are you using the C-clamp to restrict movement? Is it to hold a plug for the hole on the inside of the cylinder?

 

[max]

Here is what my clutch basket looks like after 80.000 km using a borescope, maybe somebody can help where the clutch drag comes from?

Could there be a buildup of something over time and is it an idea to use automotive oil ONCE which is supposed to make a clutch slip a bit more?
Just guessing here.....

 

[mattmcuomo@yahoo.com]

When bleeding a hydraulic clutch, I found that bleeding it manually or with a pneumatic power bleeder, you have to put a lot of fluid through compared to a bleeding a brake caliper. That's because the hydraulic clutch handle does not "bottom out" as it would when a brake pads go solid against the rotor, and you're just mixing more fluid into a larger volume.

I have found that removing the clutch slave cylinder and using a simple C-clamp to restrict the piston movement will give the firm pressure you would have on a brake caliper, and evacuate all the old fluid much quicker.

I like that idea, I will try that next time.

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk

 

[pekingduck]

Here is what my clutch basket looks like after 80.000 km using a borescope, maybe somebody can help where the clutch drag comes from?

Could there be a buildup of something over time and is it an idea to use automotive oil ONCE which is supposed to make a clutch slip a bit more?
Just guessing here.....

Cormanus, the C-Clamp (or vice, or giant Crescent wrench) is used to prevent the piston from moving out of the housing. One side is on the center of the outer housing. The other side goes against the piston (put a big thick washer or equivalent over the seal to protect it).

The seal is to hold the grease in and dirt out for the round tip of the pushrod.

 

[Cormanus]

Ah. Thank you. That makes sense.

Need to get some DOT4 fluid and make some time to try this.

Looks pretty in there, max.

 

[GoldOxide_imp]

This thread is shaping up to be some interesting fun seen from the back rows.