Rotella T5 10w30 + CB1100 = HAPPY!!!

[Tev62]

I'm trying to see your point. Honda literally banks their reputation on reliability, they have for 60 years. why would they cut corners on the literal 'life blood' of their engines? Having have actually worked at a honda dealership years ago & gone thru some corporate service training, I can tell you they will absolutely take a financial hit (ie sidestep profit) vs damage their reputation. I'm pretty sure their oils are up to the task just fine of protecting their motors, and I certainly have never heard of an oil related failure aside from somebody not filling it enough. I read the info you posted. I also know that Honda will absolutely randomly have dealerships occasionally send oil in for lab testing, I know they did when I worked there (it was a car dealer though). They are absolutely aware of what's in their oil.

Another point is that ZDDP over a certain amount ppm will/can damage 02 sensors and ruin catalytic converters, hence why 'racing oils' or 'diesel oils' have more in them, because it isn't a concern. this is partially a reason why I DONT run VR1 in my CB (the 02 sensor), but do in my old cars. Its also why honda doesn't spec it, you really can't in an emission controlled vehicle. .02

Yes, my flat four air-cooled car uses a single weight SAE30 oil with high zinc content additive to try and give the camshaft/pushrod interface an easier time. When the newer style roller tappet came out in similar engines the oil recommendation was for a very much lower zinc content for the very reasons you mention.

 

[Yata-Garasu_imp]

I'm trying to see your point. Honda literally banks their reputation on reliability, they have for 60 years. why would they cut corners on the literal 'life blood' of their engines? Having have actually worked at a honda dealership years ago & gone thru some corporate service training, I can tell you they will absolutely take a financial hit (ie sidestep profit) vs damage their reputation. I'm pretty sure their oils are up to the task just fine of protecting their motors, and I certainly have never heard of an oil related failure aside from somebody not filling it enough. I read the info you posted. I also know that Honda will absolutely randomly have dealerships occasionally send oil in for lab testing, I know they did when I worked there (it was a car dealer though). They are absolutely aware of what's in their oil.

Another point is that ZDDP over a certain amount ppm will/can damage 02 sensors and ruin catalytic converters, hence why 'racing oils' or 'diesel oils' have more in them, because it isn't a concern. this is partially a reason why I DONT run VR1 in my CB (the 02 sensor), but do in my old cars. Its also why honda doesn't spec it, you really can't in an emission controlled vehicle. .02

Excellent points, thanks for taking the time to give a thoughtful reply.

My experience with the Honda motorcycle dealers near me has given me a very different impression of the Honda corporation than the one you came away with.

I like their designs, but I am not impressed with their ethics... Honda has made some very bad engineering decisions in the past 20 years. Innocent people have died.

If my experience with Honda was more like yours, I'd be more inclined to trust them.

Your point about ZDDP is well taken. I can’t guarantee that the amount of zinc in the T5 won't come back to haunt me, but I've already taken the plunge.

Do you know what the current limits are? Or what the limits were 20 years ago? It seems to me that the limits are a moving target based on EPA and/or political considerations...

I do know that my Eleven runs well on the T5 10w30, better than any of the MA listed oils Ive tried including the Honda GN4.

Thanks again for your detailed reply.

 

[Tev62]

These are the notes on my SAE30 oil classed as "High Zinc Content" for my car. Zinc as ZDDP @ 500 ppm.

ZDDP (full name Zinc dialkyldithiophosphate) is a compound developed in the 1940s consisting of zinc bound to the anion of dithiophosphoric acid. They are soluble in nonpolar solvents, and the longer chain derivatives easily dissolve in mineral and synthetic lubricating oils.

The main use of ZDDP is as an anti-wear additive to lubricants, but over time their concentrations have been reduced to avoid damaging catalytic converters on modern vehicles. Crankcase oils with reduced ZDDP cause damage to, or failure of, moving parts lacking ‘full film’ lubrication in classic vehicles such as flat tappet camshafts and followers, which undergo very high boundary layer pressures and/or shear forces at their contact faces; and in other areas such as piston rings and gudgeon pins. The same ZDDP compounds serve also as corrosion inhibitors and antioxidants.

 

[Yata-Garasu_imp]

The plot thickens...

I was looking at the API classifications for T5 10w30 (because I'm a party animal... lol) and the new T5 jug now has JASO MA2 written on it!

Previously it was only the Rotella T4 15W40 and the T6 5W50 and 15W40 that received the JASON MA labeling.

T5 10w30 now includes it on the jug... Not sure about other viscosities.

 

[GoldOxide_imp]

That is interesting.

I wish they would update their product specification document on their official Shell Rotella T5 10W30 site:

https://rotella.shell.com/en_ca/pro...1612955687d7d761b5a0f42/t5-10w-30-ssht-lr.pdf

 

[Yata-Garasu_imp]

That is interesting.

I wish they would update their product specification document on their official Shell Rotella T5 10W30 site:

https://rotella.shell.com/en_ca/pro...1612955687d7d761b5a0f42/t5-10w-30-ssht-lr.pdf

Agreed, but Shell is a huge company with multiple websites in multiple languages all over the world. The link you provided is from Canada and is dated 2017, six years ago.

I found a bottle in Walmart here in Texas with the JASO MA2 cert on it. I'm certain that the bottle I purchased last Spring didn't have it.

I also discovered that the Mobil1 4T 10w40, a respected motorcycle oil with the JASO certs and cute motorcycle pics on the bottle, has 1800 ppm of zinc... More than twice what's in the GN4, and a third more than what's in the T5 10W30.

Not a great pic, but it's something from Walmart showing the JASO MA/MA2 spec on a T5 10W30 jug....

 

[GoldOxide_imp]

Awesome Yata-Garasu.

Will keep my eyes peeled for it up here.

 

[Yata-Garasu_imp]

so who's doing a flat tappet cam conversion here to necessitate this much zinc to be needed in a CB1100 motor? lol. also remember that when any of this gets into the combustion chamber, and some always does, it creates actual ash, which isn't a real good idea to be running thru the motor.

Honda's own GN4 10w40 had 1200 ppm of zinc as recently as 2007. Did all the pre 2007 bikes have flat tappet cams?!

Rotella T6 5w40, a forum favorite for colder climates, has long had over 1100 ppm.

I was surprised to learn that Mobil 1 4T is 1800 ppm, but no one is complaining about Mobil 1 4T necesitating a cam conversion!

I can understand wanting to protect the catalytic converter, but the cam conversion claim is over the top!

Current GN4 numbers are just under 900. T5 is just over 1100. It's within 300 ppm, and the T5 is conservative compared to Mobil 1 4T.

If the zinc numbers were as critical as you're claiming, Honda would have specified that in the owners manual.

Honda recommends a 10w30 oil that meets the JASO MA2 spec.

That's exactly what Rotella T5 10w30 is.

 

[Yata-Garasu_imp]

i'm just trying to figure out why YOU think its so important to have so much zinc in there. 2007 was 16 years ago, they changed it for a reason since then. its bad for 02 sensors over time, period. some reports claim 50% reduction in life of an 02 sensor. You don't need to justify to anyone why you want to run it in your bike, do whatever you want. But, there are downsides to it as well, which doesn't seem to be a concern to some. But, it bears mentioning.

The local shop here which services mostly high end dirtbikes, and a lot race, got so tired of his customers droning on and on about running rotella, he started carrying it just to give them what they wanted if they requested it. high strung 4 stroke motocross singles. zero benefit over anything else. He doesn't care if you bring in your own oil, really. so its not a selling expensive oil thing. I've seen the results 1st hand. It doesn't do anything better except maybe cost a little less, and obviously thats the main driver here and with mos tpeople. . The BIGGEST thing is to change the oil regularly.



To quote Blackstone Labs "The zinc in your oil comes into play only when there is actual metal -to-metal contact within your engine, which should never occur under normal operating conditions. (hence the flat tappet comment) However, if you race your bike, or occasionally play tag with the redline on the tach, the zinc is your last line of defense. Under extreme conditions, the zinc compounds react with the metal to prevent scuffing, particularly between cylinder bores and piston rings. However - and this is the important part to remember available research shows that more zinc does not give you more protection, it merely prolongs the protection if the rate of metal-to-metal contact is abnormally high or extended."

so.. why again is it needed in the CB motor at 1000 ppm+?

Did I say that the CB1100 needed a high level of zinc? Nope.

I said that there are plenty of other well respected motorcycle oils with comparable or higher zinc levels (M14T).

Neither Honda, the industry at large, nor you seem to be going after those other oils for damaging 02 sensors or catalytic converters.

Originally you took exception to the fact that it didnt say JASO MA2 on the bottle. Now it has those letters. Then you took exception because I didnt want to buy 5 quarts of oil if I only need 3.8.

Now you're trying to take exception with zinc levels.

The current API spec lowering zinc below 1000 for gasoline engines with catalytic converters didnt take effect until 2020, three years after Honda stopped selling the CB1100 in North America.

Rotella T5 10W30 (and T4 15w50 and T6 5w40) all have a comparable amount of zinc as most other commonly used JASO MA2 motorcycle oils available today.

Honda recommends 10W30 oil that meets the JASO MA spec.

Rotella T5 10w30 is one such oil.

 

[GoldOxide_imp]

A side note:

Curious as it might seem, the Moto Guzzi V85TT requires a JASO MA/MA2 SAE 10W60 engine oil, even though it uses a dry clutch.

I wonder what their motive is?

 

[Yata-Garasu_imp]

i run stuff under 1000 ppm on anything with an 02 sensor, particularly with a wideband like i have on my CB1100. I also don't run mobile 1.

JASO MA & MA2 ratings are *strictly* related to wet clutch performance. It has nothing to do with other things that may or may not be benefits or deterrents.

one has nothing to do with the other.

I appreciate your knowledge and contributions here. I don't mean to get off on the wrong foot.

I was unaware of potential zinc problems using typical motorcycle oils, and it seemed like you were selectively bringing them into this thread. It's definitely worth discussing if it will help our CB1100s last longer. Thanks for bringing it up.

As I mentioned before, not all of my experiences with representatives of Honda Motors have been very good. After 3K miles on what I was told was new GN4 10w40, it came out looking like watery coffee.

There are two distinct reasons for this. One could be that the GN4 isn't a very robust oil, or maybe the Honda dealership didn't actually perform the oil change... They thought I wouldn't notice.

Either way, it doesn't make me want to give Honda more money. Hence my quest for a non-Honda 10w30 that will work well.

I can change my own oil... But I can't do a flat tappet cam conversion! LOL

You mentioned Motul earlier in this thread. Is that available as a 10w30 or only as 10w40? Is there a way to check the zinc counts on Motul motorcycle oils? I'm not seeing any on their spec sheets.

If the zinc count is a critical issue for the CB1100, it makes sense to have a list of motor oils with appropriate add packs that will work without damaging O2 sensors or catalytic converters.

In the meanwhile, the T5 10w30 is the smoothest shifting, quietest oil I've had in this bike, compared to T6 15w40 and what the dealership said was fresh GN4 10w40.

The additive pack and zinc count is similar on all the Rotella oils, and it's significantly less zinc than the Mobil 1 4T, which several other forum members here swear by.

Just trying to do what's best for my bike without getting taken to the cleaners by shifty Honda dealers or snake oil salesmen!

A side note:

Curious as it might seem, the Moto Guzzi V85TT requires a JASO MA/MA2 SAE 10W60 engine oil, even though it uses a dry clutch.

I wonder what their motive is?

Good questions! Having never seen a 10w60 JASO MA oil, my guess is that the only source will be directly from them!

(Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to take my money...)

 

[GoldOxide_imp]

I thought there were very few 10W60 oil offerings worldwide - maybe only in Europe.

Today that is apparently no longer true and is thankfully available at a lower North American price - full synthetic too.

 

[Ollie]

A side note:

Curious as it might seem, the Moto Guzzi V85TT requires a JASO MA/MA2 SAE 10W60 engine oil, even though it uses a dry clutch.

I wonder what their motive is?

I don't know? Maybe Piaggio just feels they should spec JASO MA2 in all their motorcycles?

Since the V85 and my California utilize a dry clutch I had no problem with Motul 8100 10W-60 (on sale) which is for high performance cars (Ferarri, Porsche, Maserati, etc) which also have dry clutches. For wet clutch bikes spec'ing 10w-60 I'd use Motul's less slippery 7100.
10W60 8100 X-Power Oil (5 Liter) - Motul 106144

 

[GoldOxide_imp]

I had an Aprilia which did not have a wet clutch. I used automobile (non-MA/MA2) synthetic Castrol 5W40 oil in the V-twin and never experienced an operational or performance problem. Aprilia spec'ed a MA/MA2 oil. So maybe they are in bed with certain engine oil companies. (dunno)