Oil Change Time!

[Jambo_imp]

This thread as it relates to the cost effectiveness of the aftermarket reusable filter could be extended to a lot of other stuff we do.
The K&N air filter. Supposed to flow more air than stock filter, to which I have never seen empirical data from K&N, only claims, but the same argument could apply.

I have reused stock air filters. Just vacuum them off in the opposite direction from the normal flow to remove dirt, dust, grit. I have even used solvent, though would not recommend that. I always have filter oil on hand for a variety of machines. Then reuse. You could argue that you could get (riding condition dependent), 30-50K miles out of one. How many reuses of a K&N would it take to pay for the 1-200% premium over stock to make that filter cost effective? Maybe because it is alleged to be cleanable, and perhaps withstands that better than the OEM, you would be inspired to clean them more often and result in better filtration consistently over time.

Or, you could just say I am paying the extra money for better performance and the cost be darned.

How cost effective is an aftermarket seat. How cost effective is the Delkevic full exhaust system, or the Power Commander?

Sometimes the money isn't the only thing, but some perceived performance increase, or we just like it better.

We are surprisingly adept at justifying anything.

In my case, I already had the filter on hand, just so happens, already paid for with intention of using it on another Honda, with dubious initial value vs. upfront cost to begin with. But it looks the $hit doesn't it?
Lol.

 

[TXBikerGuy]

This thread as it relates to the cost effectiveness of the aftermarket reusable filter could be extended to a lot of other stuff we do.
The K&N air filter. Supposed to flow more air than stock filter, to which I have never seen empirical data from K&N, only claims, but the same argument could apply.

I have reused stock air filters. Just vacuum them off in the opposite direction from the normal flow to remove dirt, dust, grit. I have even used solvent, though would not recommend that. I always have filter oil on hand for a variety of machines. Then reuse. You could argue that you could get (riding condition dependent), 30-50K miles out of one. How many reuses of a K&N would it take to pay for the 1-200% premium over stock to make that filter cost effective? Maybe because it is alleged to be cleanable, and perhaps withstands that better than the OEM, you would be inspired to clean them more often and result in better filtration consistently over time.

Or, you could just say I am paying the extra money for better performance and the cost be darned.

How cost effective is an aftermarket seat. How cost effective is the Delkevic full exhaust system, or the Power Commander?

Sometimes the money isn't the only thing, but some perceived performance increase, or we just like it better.

We are surprisingly adept at justifying anything.

In my case, I already had the filter on hand, just so happens, already paid for with intention of using it on another Honda, with dubious initial value vs. upfront cost to begin with. But it looks the $hit doesn't it?
Lol.

Reason enough for me to justify a significant percentage of the farkles on my bikes. If I started applying cost-effectiveness to my motorcycle-related buying decisions...yikes. That wouldn't end well.

 

[PowerDubs_imp]

My reasoning on using factory oil filters / or equivalents on my vehicles doesn't actually have any concern over the filtering...

Many don't think about how different oil filters effect oil flow itself- bypass valves, backflow valves, overall flow.

This is probably more important on certain engines than others.

 

[peterbaron]

My reasoning on using factory oil filters / or equivalents on my vehicles doesn't actually have any concern over the filtering...

Many don't think about how different oil filters effect oil flow itself- bypass valves, backflow valves, overall flow.

This is probably more important on certain engines than others.

^^+1^^...and some oil filters do not even have bypass valve!!

 

[Houtman_imp]

I keep it simple on an important part of the life of an engine : stick to OEM filter .

 

[Jambo_imp]

This thread as it relates to the cost effectiveness of the aftermarket reusable filter could be extended to a lot of other stuff we do.
The K&N air filter. Supposed to flow more air than stock filter, to which I have never seen empirical data from K&N, only claims, but the same argument could apply.

I have reused stock air filters. Just vacuum them off in the opposite direction from the normal flow to remove dirt, dust, grit. I have even used solvent, though would not recommend that. I always have filter oil on hand for a variety of machines. Then reuse. You could argue that you could get (riding condition dependent), 30-50K miles out of one. How many reuses of a K&N would it take to pay for the 1-200% premium over stock to make that filter cost effective? Maybe because it is alleged to be cleanable, and perhaps withstands that better than the OEM, you would be inspired to clean them more often and result in better filtration consistently over time.

Or, you could just say I am paying the extra money for better performance and the cost be darned.

How cost effective is an aftermarket seat. How cost effective is the Delkevic full exhaust system, or the Power Commander?

Sometimes the money isn't the only thing, but some perceived performance increase, or we just like it better.

We are surprisingly adept at justifying anything.

In my case, I already had the filter on hand, just so happens, already paid for with intention of using it on another Honda, with dubious initial value vs. upfront cost to begin with. But it looks the $hit doesn't it?
Lol.

Reason enough for me to justify a significant percentage of the farkles on my bikes. If I started applying cost-effectiveness to my motorcycle-related buying decisions...yikes. That wouldn't end well.

Reason enough for me to justify a significant percentage of the farkles on my bikes. If I started applying cost-effectiveness to my motorcycle-related buying decisions...yikes. That wouldn't end well.
Maybe we could do cost effectiveness spreadsheets and break that out when the box arrives to show to the wife. Then you could explain the analyses carefully and link it to the other retirement fund spreadsheet that shows how that Givi trunk allows you to take the bike on your commute more often, saving mpg over the car, permitting more savings that boost your contributions, resulting in HER retiring much earlier! Ignore the * for tires (nothing to see here, move along). That might inspire HER to search for more chrome laden savings!

My reasoning on using factory oil filters / or equivalents on my vehicles doesn't actually have any concern over the filtering...

Many don't think about how different oil filters effect oil flow itself- bypass valves, backflow valves, overall flow.

This is probably more important on certain engines than others.

You bring up another controversial subject. Most bike filters do not have the complication of bypass mechanicals built in. If you think about it, those measures are only for those who think all an internal combustion engine needs is the fuel put into that thingy behind the door.

My vehicles will never benefit from such bypass technology. Given I change the oil with synthetic on ridiculous 3K mile intervals, my oil filters are probably nearly new when they are removed to begin with. Again, and to me, if I do the work myself, which I enjoy and giving me the opportunity to inspect, the cost is so low that it is probably more of a feel good advantage than anything else.

Turns out, despite the fact that they are totally different engines, the wife's late model Honda Fit (1.5L) and my late model Honda Civic (2.0L) use the same filter. Ordered six at once through Walmart of Mobil-1 M110A's and got a $1/filter discount and never have to worry about having filters on hand. Those filters rate high in the Youtube dissassembly inspection comparos. With those, from the time I break out the two hydraulic jacks (with the protective frame pucks), remove shrouds, change oil/filter, reassemble, clean up pan/funnel and recycle, write service record, takes me an hour and costs $30/car, and $20 per bike (with reusable PC Racing filter), done on 3K mile intervals.

I think you can't go wrong with an OEM filter. I DO use the car oil. That costs me $4.60 per quart for FULL synthetic for comparison.

On the oil flow discussion, I think I reread the PC Racing claim of 35 micron filtration specs (when, initially, over the oil change interval, as an average, what interval?), which might allow larger particles through than an OEM. PC Racing claims a higher flow rate, which if you look at the photos of the internals and the surface area is perhaps believable. But compared to what surface area on an OEM? What are the OEM filtration specs? I will wait while you do the archeology to uncover the OEM specifications....Can't find any? Again, how much crud is in there after 3K miles using full synthetic? Judging by my inspection of the oil coming out of the motor(s), I am going to claim "not much".

 

[Blockhead_imp]

I keep it simple on an important part of the life of an engine : stick to OEM filter .

Me too...

The dreaded oil/filter thread...a forum classic. :clap:

 

[Jambo_imp]

Speaking of oil change intervals, let me fan the flames of controversy yet again, because I can.

Engine break-in.
There are two camps:
1) Ride it like you stole it from day one
2) Follow the manufacturers kinder, gentler approach
Either camp can debate when is the right time for the first oil change. If you follow the book, Honda tells us to change oil (Initial) after only 600 miles (1000km), or six months. Then every 4K miles thereafter.
That is actually the first time I recall the manufacturer recommending the initial change that early.

No matter. Here is what I do. I am 1) and 2) plus follow THIS recommendation, whether my owner's manual says to or not. If I buy new, I do the kinder-gentler break in for 600 miles. Car, bike, or whatever. Early shifts, mixed driving, through all the gears, no droning on the highway at constant speed. Then, change the oil/filter. With ONLY dino juice. NO SYNTHETIC at this time. Even if the manufacturer does not call for this early change, I do it anyway (see Honda car recommendation below). After that short initial period, which might only be a weekend or two, and the initial change, then 2) ride it like you stole it. The reason for dino juice at initial change is to allow the motor to break in thoroughly with rings seating to cylinder walls, and the rest of the motor (and transmission in the bike case) to properly seat and bed-in. If you switch to synthetic too early (at the initial change), then you could delay the motor break-in, and not gain the full horsepower the motor can make. Once that initial change is made, I will feel free to take it to the redline whenever it suits me, which might be every ride.
After the SECOND oil change at about 4K, I will switch to full synthetic and remain there for life (or the duration of my ownership).

I got my CB used with 5900 miles, in pristine condition, with already some aftermarket coin spent, for a 50% cost savings letting the original owner suffer the upfront massive depreciation on the bike (more so on the farkles). Then, I changed the oil (as described in this thread) at the onset of my ownership to establish a known baseline under my service record keeping. It doesn't matter what was claimed, I cannot verify what the break-in procedure was that was used.
Now I am free to rev the snot out of the motor as I please and enjoy.
I always follow the above if I buy new. I think the initial change at such a low interval is also overkill. But, oil is cheap.

Note: Jambo likes Hondas. My car is a Civic, and the wife has a Fit. Honda purposefully has the computer tally mileage and "tells you" when service is due with their "Maintenance Minder". Most manufacturers are going to this. Just a matter of time when the bikes also do. The display calls out a code you have to research to find out what it means. Not only does the flimsy provided owners manual tell you nothing, but "take it to the stealership", but if you get the REAL manual (note: Honda will send you the "real" book they used to provide always for free if you ask for it within the first six months of ownership....read the purposefully very tiny font in the introduction of your manual), BUT even that 1.5" book does not tell you what the Maintenance Minder codes mean, or the service intervals. They do this on purpose. These days with online shopping, you have to be a moron to provide either dealer or manufacturer with much profit upon initial purchase. True whether car or bike. The real profit is made in the service department. They don't want you to know the intervals, or what the code means, so intimidated (or lazy) people, will just take the vehicle in for service. They don't want do-it-yourselfers. The Honda cars will tell you to do service A0 at 7500 miles, which is an oil change +. I did not wait. Most people will see the wrench idiot light (called that for a reason), panic and call the stealership, where they are urged to get the vehicle to them as soon as possible as they are the only ones who can interpret the A0 code and give the vehicle what it needs.
I changed oil at 1K miles and reset the Maintenance Minder on both Honda cars. I have never taken the car back to the stealership. Also the shrouds on the bottom of the vehicle serve two purposes: 1) allows for better aerodynamics to meet fuel economy fleet standards, and 2) discourages owners from doing their own service, as you can't even see the oil filter.

No bike or car manufacturers want their vehicles to last forever. Just past the warranty. I view the oil change intervals in this way. I want my vehicles to last forever. Oil is cheap and the time it takes me to change it is less than it takes to deliver the vehicle to have a service department do it, and it is more convenient for me to do it in my garage or driveway anyway, at my convenience. I change early and often, and with the described schedule above using good filters and oil, using my mechanical aptitude. In my case with the way frequent oil change interval, I do not think it matters a whole lot that I am using the PC Racing reusable filter, or an OEM one. It only matters that I am not using a K&N that can pop a nut ( ), or a Fram that can disintegrate because it is made out of spit and toilet tissue. This ensures me the job is done right, and my vehicle will last as long as possible.

 

[SportsterDoc]

I have some K&N filters, if anyone is interested.

:rofl::rofl:

LOL
Don't think there is an issue with their oil filter media so much as poor spot welding... or glue blocking passages on some cartridges.

The reusable oil filter touted in this thread has a micron rating of 30 or 35 depending on which link is viewed.

Wix does better (25):

More Information for WIX WL10000

Did not find a rating for the Honda oil filter.

Be interesting to compare not only micron ratings but how much contaminants can be retained before the bypass opens and stops filtering.
I used disposable K&N oil filter cartridges on my last two Yamahas, after inspecting no ports were blocked by glue (had to send one back), primarily because I could order them at a very good price from O'Reilly Auto parts.

Thinking about helping my youngest son in law clean his k&N air filter on his F-150 last time I was in Arizona, there are other costs that showed associated with using a reusable oil filter or air filter:

In addition to time there is also solvents and cleaning up after the clean up!

 

[Jambo_imp]

I have some K&N filters, if anyone is interested.

:rofl::rofl:

LOL
Don't think there is an issue with their oil filter media so much as poor spot welding... or glue blocking passages on some cartridges.

The reusable oil filter touted in this thread has a micron rating of 30 or 35 depending on which link is viewed.

Wix does better (25):

More Information for WIX WL10000

Did not find a rating for the Honda oil filter.

Be interesting to compare not only micron ratings but how much contaminants can be retained before the bypass opens and stops filtering.
I used disposable K&N oil filter cartridges on my last two Yamahas, after inspecting no ports were blocked by glue (had to send one back), primarily because I could order them at a very good price from O'Reilly Auto parts.

Thinking about helping my youngest son in law clean his k&N air filter on his F-150 last time I was in Arizona, there are other costs that showed associated with using a reusable oil filter or air filter:

In addition to time there is also solvents and cleaning up after the clean up!

LOL
Don't think there is an issue with their oil filter media so much as poor spot welding... or glue blocking passages on some cartridges.

The reusable oil filter touted in this thread has a micron rating of 30 or 35 depending on which link is viewed.

Wix does better (25):

More Information for WIX WL10000

Did not find a rating for the Honda oil filter.

Be interesting to compare not only micron ratings but how much contaminants can be retained before the bypass opens and stops filtering.
I used disposable K&N oil filter cartridges on my last two Yamahas, after inspecting no ports were blocked by glue (had to send one back), primarily because I could order them at a very good price from O'Reilly Auto parts.

Thinking about helping my youngest son in law clean his k&N air filter on his F-150 last time I was in Arizona, there are other costs that showed associated with using a reusable oil filter or air filter:

In addition to time there is also solvents and cleaning up after the clean up!
Oil filtration has established standards:
ISO 4548-12 and SAE HS806 test standards are used by oil filter and Original Equipment (OE) vehicle manufacturers. These test standards specify over 15 different procedures to determine the performance and durability of an oil filter. Efficiency is a measure of how well the filter removes dirt from the oil.

Filtration Standards & Specifications - Powder Technology

We can fall into a rabbit hole on this one. Wix does not say their claims are verified according to established testing standards.

The ISO 4548-4 testing standard specifies: Initial Particle Retention Efficiency, Life & Cumulative Efficiency (gravimetric method).

Without the claim that their filtration specification is verified via a testing standard, we are left to trust the manufacturers claims. We are left to wonder whether the claim is for Initial Particle Retention (which degrades over the life of the filter), or over the "life" of the filter. What is the "life" of the filter? Different vehicle manufacturers have different recommendations as to oil change interval. For US, the life should be that interval. We cannot know what Wix, or anybody else says their filtration claim is, or what it is tied to. This is where we have the problem.

I cannot verify their claim, or the claim of the PC Racing filter.

I will claim I do not need any bypass system. Bypass should only engage when the filter gets clogged requiring it. If you have an event that causes your filter to prematurely clog, you have a much bigger problem than your oil filter. I will never allow my filters to clog because my oil change interval is (excessively) short, but it only costs me $20 and an hour of my time. Therefore, (For ME) I do not care what bypass is provided or not.

Yes, there is cost associated with solvents. Walmart sells a 12 oz can of carb cleaner for $2.50:
STA-BIL Carb/Choke & Parts Cleaner, 12.5 oz. (22005) - Walmart.com

It might take 0.25 or 0.33 a can to clean the PC Racing filter. I do it over a pan outside so it does not stink up the garage and I don't breathe in the fumes. Then you need to dispose of it. My recycle center is very good, and they will swallow anything including used solvents and brake fluid. I can pour the pan contents into a used empty 5 qt (or whatever) oil container and recycle that when I also take the oil. The solvent might cost me $1. The actual cost of 4.1q of Mobil-1 is about $19, plus the $1 of solvent=my $20 per oil change cost estimate.

Since I cannot verify the claims of Wix, Honda OEM, or PC Racing filtration claims, I could GUESS that the Wix has a 40% better filtration efficiency, but it is only a guess because I don't know if any of them tested to this standard, and whether the claim is initial, over the life, or what the life is. You could ask Wix if their claim is based on testing to ISO 4548-4. It would be interesting to hear of their reply. I would also ask what 25 microns is, meaning what portion of the standard that number represents. Whoever answers the phone will probably have their head explode. I could also bother to ask PC Racing, but probably won't. If I change my oil with synthetic at 3K miles, my sense is that it won't matter very much. Let the flames begin!

Lastly, I am not really touting the PC Racing. I have no affiliation and will say (if you don't gather from above) that it is up to the potential user to decide for themselves whether they are any good or not at filtering, and whether they are at all cost effective. I don't work for them. I do think the filter looks good, seems to actually filter based on seeing what is on there when you clean it, and that it is convenient to not have to stock filters for changing oil. BTW, I will don gloves and eye protection before spraying any solvent out of a pressurized canister. You don't want any spray reflecting into your eyes or face. That is about all I will claim. It really takes no real additional time and not much effort to clean it while the oil is dripping from the sump. It is possible, that unit could actually cause harm because the filtration is not as good as it could be, if say compared to the Wix or OEM. I really don't know.

Lastly, I would be willing to bet that any (unsubstantiated) claims of filter efficiency (in microns), is likely the initial efficiency only assuming they use any established testing standard. After that, it is anybody's guess which one would be better at 1K, 2K, or 10K miles. Even if the DOJ forbid manufactures from making any claims unless they could prove through providing test data results to the standards tests, we still would not know which part of the standard their claim actually is. I would expect the initial value to be the best value, which is why I would bet that is what the claim is based on, assuming they did any testing to a standard and did not make up their own test standard.

 

[SportsterDoc]

Not our first oil change thread is it?
http://cb1100forum.com/forum/showth...;pid=187490&highlight=Synthetic#pid187490

Ended up with Castrol 10W40 pure synthetic for high ambient operation.

 

[the Ferret]

:rofl:

LOL not hardly.

Wonder if anyone's mind and methods have been changed

 

[SportsterDoc]

:rofl:

LOL not hardly.

Wonder if anyone's mind and methods have been changed

Probably not. Forgot to mention that I used Honda oil filters at every change.

I do not want to dampen Jambo's enthusiasm (although a Reader's Digest version would be easier to follow) but bypass valves have two purposes:

1. Already mentioned by Jambo, to allow oil flow to continue if the filter media becomes clogged.

2. To allow cold, relatively thick oil to flow upon cold starts. Without a bypass valve, oil flow could be reduced/impeded upon cold startup.

 

[Jambo_imp]

:rofl:

LOL not hardly.

Wonder if anyone's mind and methods have been changed

Probably not. Forgot to mention that I used Honda oil filters at every change.

I do not want to dampen Jambo's enthusiasm (although a Reader's Digest version would be easier to follow) but bypass valves have two purposes:

1. Already mentioned by Jambo, to allow oil flow to continue if the filter media becomes clogged.

2. To allow cold, relatively thick oil to flow upon cold starts. Without a bypass valve, oil flow could be reduced/impeded upon cold startup.

Probably not. Forgot to mention that I used Honda oil filters at every change.

I do not want to dampen Jambo's enthusiasm (although a Reader's Digest version would be easier to follow) but bypass valves have two purposes:

1. Already mentioned by Jambo, to allow oil flow to continue if the filter media becomes clogged.

2. To allow cold, relatively thick oil to flow upon cold starts. Without a bypass valve, oil flow could be reduced/impeded upon cold startup.
One good thing about synthetic oil is even after you turn the motor off and let it sit an extended period of time, it will leave behind a film (dino too) of lubrication that should help limit wear on engine components. Some say, and it makes sense to me, that the first couple minutes of run time on a started motor can represent most of the wear accumulated, but also heat cycles and how long the motor is run. Most engines nowadays specify very low viscosity oils. The CB1100 says 10W30, but my Honda cars now spec 0W20. The first number relates to the viscosity when cold. Cold is a relative term. Maybe there are riders who brave subzero temperatures on occasions, but bet they're in the minority. Most riders aren't even going to start their bikes unless the bike is at least 40F (4.4C) and more likely still, at least 50F (10C). At those temperatures you are not going to notice much of a change in viscosity over 72F (22.2C).
"The number preceding the “W” (winter) rates the oil’s flow (viscosity) at zero degrees Fahrenheit (-17.8 degrees Celsius)."
The second number is the viscosity at 100C (boiling point of water).
If the temperature scale we care about is -17.8C to 100C, which is 117.8C, then the difference between 50C and 72C is 22/117.8 is about a 19% change in temperature (and viscosity?). If that is a linear scale, then your 10W winter rating at -17.8C will look like 19W oil at 40C. Will the bypass kick in at 19W viscosity oil? I don't know, but doubt it.
Will a bypass kick in with the oil at 10W viscosity at -17.8C/0F? I don't know.
Will you start your engine at 0F?

 

[PowerDubs_imp]

Not on my bike...

I've started cars at -7F

At that temp the entire car feels stiff and unhappy.

One of my cars takes 13 quarts- so even on just a reasonably chilly day, not even below freezing takes a LOOOOONG time to heat up, even at highway speed.

The flip side is that once hot- it has a 'residual heat' function that runs the water pumps while the car is parked at say a restaurant or shopping to keep the fluid moving through the block to the heater core, back to the block- while running the climate control inside the car- you come back to a nice toasty car.

If the available heat drops too low, it shuts itself off.

 

[Jambo_imp]

Not on my bike...

I've started cars at -7F

At that temp the entire car feels stiff and unhappy.

One of my cars takes 13 quarts- so even on just a reasonably chilly day, not even below freezing takes a LOOOOONG time to heat up, even at highway speed.

The flip side is that once hot- it has a 'residual heat' function that runs the water pumps while the car is parked at say a restaurant or shopping to keep the fluid moving through the block to the heater core, back to the block- while running the climate control inside the car- you come back to a nice toasty car.

If the available heat drops too low, it shuts itself off.

True. You can definitely tell when the car is cold and reluctant to start at such low temperatures. But if we are talking bikes and their oil/filters, I am unlikely to start mine much below 50F. I have been known to ride all the way up until Xmas, where I live in MD, temperature dependent. If it is 40F outside, I am unlikely to ride unless I miss it so much, but then it will be limited to a very short ride to just say I did. Getting older, if the temps now are below 50F, I am uninspired, though I have been known to ride between 40-50F. I get uninspired because of the hassle factor of layering up that much. That means the bike might sit from December to March. BTW, if I think I won't be riding that long, I would be inclined to fill the tank treated with Stabil. Nowadays with $hitty ethanol based fuels, even Stabil does not do the job it used to do, but with fuel injected bikes, they generally start right up if stabilized after three months of sitting. I will also charge the battery on a trickle charger at least once a month since the internal resistance of batteries might discharge it 1%/day. Other than that, I don't feel a need to start it during that time unless it magically warms enough I could take it out.
So with bikes in mind, I am not going to start it below 50F, and claim a bypass is not going to be needed because the oil will never be thick enough for me to need it, at least based on temperature. And since I change oil often, I won't need it based on the filter clogging. Not to offend anyone, I am just saying to me I don't care about the bypass feature in a filter, all IMHO.

 

[Houtman_imp]

Interesting reading Jambo but why do you use car oil and not motorcycle oil : is it just the cost or do you believe they are all the same , changing it often does not change the difference between the two types of oil . Just asking in earnest .

 

[Jambo_imp]

Interesting reading Jambo but why do you use car oil and not motorcycle oil : is it just the cost or do you believe they are all the same , changing it often does not change the difference between the two types of oil . Just asking in earnest .

It is a fair question to ask Houtman. For those who do not wish to read my dissertation, then YES, and YES.

I think the most important feature of the (any) oil is the fact that it is full synthetic. It is well known that full synthetic oils perform better in terms of wear, reduced drag, provide very modest improvements in mpg, and out last regular dino juices in terms of breakdown over temperature. I might argue whether one vendor's formula is superior to another. Lots have. I would probably buy the generic Walmart Supertech full synthetic if you could get a flavor without the resource conserving. It is probably Mobil-1 that Walmart is sworn by contract to never divulge. I don't think the Waltons own any refineries.

Perhaps there are additives that really do make a difference for a motor that can rev (not ours) to 14K rpm, and that also bathes the clutch plates. What those additives are, I don't know, and the manufacturers aren't going to say what their secret, proprietary sauces are. I would love to do a 100K mile scientific based comparison of two identical bikes, one with full synth car oil, and another with full synth motorcycle oil, followed by complete motor breakdown and SCEM imaging (electron microscope). I would be willing to bet there would be no discernible differences. Pure speculation.

You could make a great argument at my very conservative oil change intervals, that just putting in the generic Supertech regular oil at $2.50/q is probably all you really need. Spending $4/q on Mobil-1 probably does not really make a difference unless you keep your bike until it has 2-300K miles on it. (I knew a guy who DID that, putting over 200K on his CBR1000RR in TWO years! As you can imagine, all he ever did was RIDE!). For me, I just FEEL like I am treating my bike better using full synthetic, and the cost delta is only about $6 difference from regular dino to synth. All else (filters) is a given and not an equation factor. BUT, the cost delta is 150% from full synthetic car oil (which they sell 1000 times more of) compared to bike oils. Full synthetic car oil is $4/q and bikes $10/q. If you compare to regular dino oil, the cost delta is $400%.

To me, and some will say and I would not argue the point, my position (like a lot when it comes to the oil threads) is based on pure opinion with no supporting empirical evidence in terms of car vs. bike oils. I think that motorcyclists are a very loyal and devoted bunch. I think that oil manufacturers know this and can extract more from us due to our (sometimes emotional) devotion. I am of the opinion that it is likely more marketing than science. Since I change the oil so often, it is inconceivable to me that the higher revs of my Honda CB1100 are breaking down the full synthetic oil very much compared to my Honda Civic, and when you couple it with replacing it with fresh in such a short 3K mile interval, there is no noticeable breakdown difference between the two (CB1100 vs Civic).

When I change the oil, it looks slightly browner than when it goes in, suggesting there was some temperature-based degradation and post-combustion contaminants (like acid), but it is so minor, I find myself wondering if I should reuse it elsewhere like the lawnmower.

For both my beloved Honda bikes and Honda cars, I just go ahead and suffer the 1 hour expenditure of my time and $20 for the bike, and $30 for the car and put in fresh synthetic every 3K miles. I do this knowing full well it is total overkill. I don't think I would do this if I had to suffer through the hassle factor of having someone else do it for me and pay for that, mostly due to the time required to drop it off and pick it up (along with another required vehicle/driver). Since I do it myself, it takes me less time in comparison. The cost of me doing it vs. paying someone is about the same, except me doing it means I can use full synthetic for the cost of regular oil. When I say this, I am comparing the cost of car oil changes. My guess is I am saving a lot compared to bike oil changes, and getting synth, but don't know as I never pay someone to change the oil in my bike.

BTW, the Honda Fit takes less motor oil (3.5q with filter change) than the CB1100 does. I can buy a six pack of Mobil-1 (M1-110A) filters that rank very well in the destructive inspection comparos, for $66 and $11 apiece shipped free. That means it only costs me less than $30 for that car (Fit) and slightly more for the Civic.

What do people here pay at the dealership? I will guess it is $75-100 for an oil change.

For a direct comparison given the SAME oil change 3K mile intervals (using OEM filters), then it would cost me about $990 to use car full synth oil and OEM Honda filters over the course of 100K miles (33 oil changes), vs $1650 for Honda full synth m/c oil and OEM filters doing it myself. That is a $660 difference. Using the PC Racing, maybe the difference would be almost $1K (assuming the filter would last that long...I don't know). You can buy a lot of motorcycling trips, gear, or farkles with the difference.

 

[Houtman_imp]

Thank you for your detailed reply , yes I change the oil on my bikes myself and use Mobil 1 Synthetic MC 10/40 oil at $ 10 a quart at Walmart instead of $ 4 for car oil.
I change it ones year at about 4000-5000 miles and use an OEM filter.
From what I have read over the years the additives in mc oils are different than in car oils. I just play it safe and pay a little more for peace of mind.

 

[SportsterDoc]

InMy Moto Guzzi had a separate sump for the transmission and also had a dry clutch; but I did not use automotive oil to lubricate the engine for at least two reasons:
1. There are additives / detergents in automotive oils that may not be good for a motorcycle engine.
2. Automotive oils have less zddp.

Is there a difference between motorcycle and scooter engine oil?

Same with my Can-Am Ryker. It has a separate transmission sump for forward-reverse (ratios change by CVT) and no wet clutch.

Also, 10W60, as specified for the Moto Guzzi and 10W50, as needed for the Ryker at temps above 104 F may be difficult to find an automotive oils.

As for 0W20 or even 5W20 oils, there are many automotive manufacturers having serious oil consumption issues with their engines for which of these weight of oils have been specified.

Changing oil on an air-cooled motorcycle at 3,000 miles can be beneficial.

Using pure synthetic oil is most likely beneficial.

Using oil filter without a bypass valve is questionable.

Using automotive oil to save a few dollars may be costly in the long run.