LED Flasher Relay

[hardylt_imp]

Gold, I may try increasing the load as you said. I also have another lead from my scouring of the internet...this Blinker Genie component Blinker Genie - Run and Turn LED Signals for Motorcycles
Ya'll may have more educated opinions on it.

Apparently it converts any 2-wire LED blinker into a 3-wire. According to the install instructions you connect the extra wire to any ignition switched running light circuit. There is also talk of wiring in a diode somewhere to do the trick. Turn Signals w/ running lights Thread here if you're curious. Also starting to wonder if I'm barking up the wrong tree and my solution is as simple as using different LED signals that don't have the dynamic "sweeping" flash pattern.

Anyway, I appreciate everyone's insight on this so far, I am learning a fair amount. Thank you.

 

[tod.branko_imp]

I'll say what I've said in a different thread - Max came up with a solution for me to splice the front signals to the rear signals, solves the problem if you are ok with some wiring mods

'14 CB1100 STD 5 speed

 

[hardylt_imp]

I'll say what I've said in a different thread - Max came up with a solution for me to splice the front signals to the rear signals, solves the problem if you are ok with some wiring mods

'14 CB1100 STD 5 speed

This is a wonderfully simple idea that I think I will borrow. Thanks.

 

[17-CB-002]

About 3 weeks ago I ordered the correct LED relay from Webike,hopefully it doesn't give me any grief.

Okay, I installed it--I have good news and bad news. The good news is it effectively solved the hyper flash issue on all four turn signals. No need for resistors! The hazards function also still works fine. All good on that front.

The bad news (and it may only be bad news for me and these particular LED signals I bought) is now both my front signals flicker faintly at all times, except when the blinker is activated, at which point they function normally. My rear signals--another identical pair of the same kind--have no such problem. This confirms my suspicion that the running light voltage being sent to the front signals is causing the flickering. So my new question, perhaps the question I should have started with is:

Does anyone out there know how in the world you can remove the running light function of our front turn signals?? As far as I understand so far, that is a command sent somehow from within the relay, and I am way out of my depth at that point. It must use the same positive wire going to each signal since there is only one.

Okay, I installed it--I have good news and bad news. The good news is it effectively solved the hyper flash issue on all four turn signals. No need for resistors! The hazards function also still works fine. All good on that front.

The bad news (and it may only be bad news for me and these particular LED signals I bought) is now both my front signals flicker faintly at all times, except when the blinker is activated, at which point they function normally. My rear signals--another identical pair of the same kind--have no such problem. This confirms my suspicion that the running light voltage being sent to the front signals is causing the flickering. So my new question, perhaps the question I should have started with is:

Does anyone out there know how in the world you can remove the running light function of our front turn signals?? As far as I understand so far, that is a command sent somehow from within the relay, and I am way out of my depth at that point. It must use the same positive wire going to each signal since there is only one.
From my understanding, the "RS" version (2017 and later) are equipped with LED flashers, my questions are:
1. How did HONDA prevent/reduce the flickering?
2. Did HONDA use the POSCH relay?

 

[GoldOxide_imp]

I actually do not understand why this is an issue in the first place.

Pretty fundamental stuff.

 

[Lord Popgun]

If you Google hyperflashing you can find some good explanations. But short story—has to do with load resistance. When a diode (an LED is a diode) turns on (or is forward biased) its resistance goes to a very low value. Much lower than a bulb. Causes the circuit driving the LEDs to, well, hyper flash. Google to find more in-depth explanation.

 

[GoldOxide_imp]

Understood. Fundamental.

The part I don't understand is how does this get out of Honda production? This is not a difficult problem for a company like Honda. Maybe they out source it and Quality Assurance has bigger issues to tackle.

Is there a switching supply component involved off the 12V rail or built into the lighting subassembly?

 

[E11even_Hunnit]

I'll say what I've said in a different thread - Max came up with a solution for me to splice the front signals to the rear signals, solves the problem if you are ok with some wiring mods

'14 CB1100 STD 5 speed

What's the benefit of this again?

I mean, tapping into the front turn signal cables for the rear and not use the proper rear signal cables

 

[Lord Popgun]

Go, I don’t know. Could be either.

E11–You kind of have that backwards. What Tod and Max are saying is to disconnect the front signals from their relay connections, and connect the signals to the rear signal connections. Why would you do this? Well the rear do not have 12v on them all the time as they are not used as running lights. So the fronts and rears are only on when you select a turn. When the turn signal is cancelled, all 4 lights are out.

 

[hardylt_imp]

Yes, that’s how I understood it as well. Just abandon the front signal circuit and voila, no more issues caused by running light power.

At this point, my only issue now is the faint flickering in front signals when not activated, i.e. most of the time. I had hoped the POSH relay would do away with front signal running light power, but I guess not (unless something else is causing the flickering). I suspected that my LED signals and their sweeping flash pattern may be part of the problem, and yesterday the signal manufacturer finally got back to me and confirmed that no, they cannot be used as running lights. So for what it’s worth there is another small piece of this puzzle. But what I still don’t understand is why then are they not just flashing all the time if they are receiving 12v all the time? Doesn’t the relay work by just intermittently cutting them off? But the only time they really come on is when I activate them. I’m sure I’m missing something.

Anyway, this weekend I’ll just tie them into the rear signals, and hopefully that will be the end of it.

 

[Lord Popgun]

Well Hardy, here is why.

I decided to do a little investigation so I removed my left front turn signal bulb.

I then selected the left blinker. I got hyperflashing.

I then metered the voltage on the socket. With the turn signals off and just running lights on the voltage measured 4.5v. When blinking it would go to a much higher level. A digital meter does not respond fast enough to see the exact voltage before it goes off and on while blinking. I’d need to put my scope on it. My meter would only show 8.5 or so volts before the off part of the blink cycle.

So what is happening to you is that there is ~4.5v all the time and your LEDs aren’t running right on that. Then when the relay starts switching the 12v they do.

And now we know that if any of us, including me, had been smart enough to just LOOK, we could have seen the running lights are less bright than when signaling.

 

[E11even_Hunnit]

My understanding is:
-He who does not desire running lights as a function, should tap into the rear indicator harness for "off-when-not-activated" signal (2 wire socket)
-He who wishes to have his blinkers operate as DRL's, should tap into the front indicator harness for "always on dim+Brighter setting" signal (3 wire socket)

The question was: Why is one to more beneficial over the other one, besides personal preference which is entirely subjective..

 

[Cormanus]

The answer may lie somewhere in the fact that, as I understand it, it is a legal requirement in the US that every motorcycle's front indicators should be also be running lights and therefore be on at all times except when they are acting as indicators. Exercising the option to turn them off may be rewarded with a fine.

 

[Lord Popgun]

E11, just keep in mind that our bikes do not have 3 wire sockets in the front.

Cormanus, you are correct, but actually getting a ticket is not really likely. What would be more likely, but not a sure thing, is failing a state safety inspection. And not all states have those.

 

[Lord Popgun]

Ok, just for giggles I'm going to put a scope on the front socket and see how the voltage swings look. I'll do that tonight or tomorrow.

 

[GoldOxide_imp]

Ok, just for giggles I'm going to put a scope on the front socket and see how the voltage swings look. I'll do that tonight or tomorrow.

That would be wonderful and constructive to all watching.

Lord P.

 

[Lord Popgun]

Gold, My initial results are perplexing so before I do a good test and post some pics of the scope presentation I have to redo my test setup.

My initial test setup try ended up blowing the turn signal fuse. I then ran the test with the left front bulb removed. With ignition on, and thus the running lights on, I did not get the 4.5v. Instead it was a pulsed 12v. Interesting. With the Left signal selected I got the hyper flashing, but was a pulsed 12v as you would expect. And obviously a lot faster. 0v to 12v then back to 0v for non electronic guys. It appears that the running light intensity is not controlled by lowering the voltage, but by pulsing the 12v. Changing the duty cycle to about .5 Half on half off. We’ll see when I post scope pics.

I want to do the test with the lights operating normally so I am going to have to open up the headlight so I can get to the left signal connection for the 12v connection and have the bulb installed. Then there will be no hyperflashing and I can get exact operation.

 

[Lord Popgun]

Gold, new test setup is done and everything works properly. I’ll finish the project tomorrow, get the pics transferred to Photobucket (yeah I pay for it—sue me) and get them here.

Just so non techs know, I will explain how to read an o’scope so you can understand what you are seeing. It is NOT rocket science. Easy really. Heck, I can do it

 

[GoldOxide_imp]

Gold, My initial results are perplexing so before I do a good test and post some pics of the scope presentation I have to redo my test setup.

My initial test setup try ended up blowing the turn signal fuse. I then ran the test with the left front bulb removed. With ignition on, and thus the running lights on, I did not get the 4.5v. Instead it was a pulsed 12v. Interesting. With the Left signal selected I got the hyper flashing, but was a pulsed 12v as you would expect. And obviously a lot faster. 0v to 12v then back to 0v for non electronic guys. It appears that the running light intensity is not controlled by lowering the voltage, but by pulsing the 12v. Changing the duty cycle to about .5 Half on half off. We’ll see when I post scope pics.

I want to do the test with the lights operating normally so I am going to have to open up the headlight so I can get to the left signal connection for the 12v connection and have the bulb installed. Then there will be no hyperflashing and I can get exact operation.

Sounds like the circuit is behaving like in a variable pulse width modulated mode. That can control perceived illuminator brilliance, and in the case of some high-tech LEDs, colour or colour temperature (measured in Kelvin).

Gold, new test setup is done and everything works properly. I’ll finish the project tomorrow, get the pics transferred to Photobucket (yeah I pay for it—sue me) and get them here.

Just so non techs know, I will explain how to read an o’scope so you can understand what you are seeing. It is NOT rocket science. Easy really. Heck, I can do it

Sounds exciting LPG (not Low Pressure Gas).

Makes me wonder a bit how Honda did back in the early 1980s?

 

[Cormanus]

Oh .. Liquid Petroleum Gas then.