Houtman_imp
Road warrior
+ 1peterbaron_imp said:
PB
HD would never have a spot in my garage...if given for free, I would immediately trade it in for Honda or something else...
....prehistoric design, noisemakers...
pb +2
Harley-Davidson closing Kansas plant
- Thread starter SportsterDoc
- Start date
PB
HD would never have a spot in my garage...if given for free, I would immediately trade it in for Honda or something else...
....prehistoric design, noisemakers...
pb +2
Acrobat_imp
Running like a top
I'm really impressed from what I read here about dealerships at the places you live, considering the population of these places . Here in a small island of about 55000 people( 25000 in the city + villages), 30 years ago EVERY brand had its exclusive official dealer. Now one big shop for bmw, honda, triumph, Harley, suzuki, ktm-husqvarna, mv-agusta, ducati, aprilia. Another for Yamaha, piaggio. Small ones Kawasaki, sym, kymco, benelli, brixton, and some Chinese brands. And numerous small round the corner doing all shops. We have a reputation here as bikers. You can literally see any bike you can imagine here. By the way my big shop friend is about to stop being official bmw dealer due to unreasonable demands of mother bmw..This is pure decadence to me like as in most other aspects of our lives. I think moto-auto brands (like governments?) start forgetting the Alfa and Omega of their business: the customer. Can we do anything? We are tied up...
The point I was trying to make is that HD has done very well selling old-school bikes. One of the reasons for this is because they are able to market their strong tradition in the marketplace. They have a very strong, very long lineage to play off of. Those rumbling v-twins (whether sporting loud pipes or not) is the one of the single biggest components of the HD brand.peterbaron_imp said:
I don't have anything against Harley Davidson as a company. I like the fact that some companies still want to manufacture products here in the States. I think about stuff like this because lineage is a big deal to me personally. That's why I'm proud to say that the CB1100 is built in Japan. Even if the bike were of the same quality, if it was built in Thailand for example it simply wouldn't hold quite as much appeal for me. Especially given the specific type of bike it is — a tribute to Honda's heritage.
Even if HD were to build the best electric motorcycles in the world, there is still going to be a large part of their customer base that won't want to have anything to do with such machines. It would simply represent too large of a break from the image that they've worked so hard to cultivate. It will be very interesting to see how they handle such a move.
Banned_imp
Been there
+ 1peterbaron_imp said:
PB
HD would never have a spot in my garage...if given for free, I would immediately trade it in for Honda or something else...
....prehistoric design, noisemakers...
pb
My "prehistoric noisemakers" has carried my wife and I for 112,000km completely trouble free.
Over the Rocky Mtns, across the Mojave Desert in the middle of July at 100mph all day long, Blue Ridge Parkway, Mt Washington, you get the picture.
Now it has a sidecar that carries my special needs daughter. That's a lot of extra weight and it never misses a beat.
I thought we were above this kind of slagging on this forum.
Perhaps I'm in the wrong place.
Ulvetanna_imp
Road warrior
This post deserves a reply.Banned_imp said:
I never met a motorcycle I didn't like.
I"ve had three Harleys, enjoyed every mile.
There was thread about Cycle World going quarterly, Sport Rider failing, and so on.
H-D sees the future and is going to be way ahead of the game, because Millennials do not know, nor do they care, about things such as changing oil, adjusting valves, and all that. They just want to have fun.
It IS about LIFESTYLE now. H-D gets it.
When they get this electric thing rolling, they'll be selling the most classic American bikes on the planet along with the most advanced bikes on the planet.
That's just good business sense.
To W/R:
SportsterDoc
Road warrior
Thread starter
1. Build quality of Triumphs assembled in Thailand would be difficult to differentiate from build quality in Japan.
2. For those who dismiss H-D, have you ridden a stage one 2002 or 2003 Sportster 1200 Sport, with fully adjustable front and rear suspension, dual front discs, dual plug heads and ~80 foot pounds of torque?
2002 Harley-Davidson XL 1200S Sportster 1200 Sport
Back to the CB1100: Had a good 358 mile run today to Death Valley via Pahrump, Shoshone, Badwater, Furnace Creek, Stovepipe Wells, Beatty and back.
4011 mikes on the odometer. Changed the oil from GN4 to HP4S.
2. For those who dismiss H-D, have you ridden a stage one 2002 or 2003 Sportster 1200 Sport, with fully adjustable front and rear suspension, dual front discs, dual plug heads and ~80 foot pounds of torque?
2002 Harley-Davidson XL 1200S Sportster 1200 Sport
Back to the CB1100: Had a good 358 mile run today to Death Valley via Pahrump, Shoshone, Badwater, Furnace Creek, Stovepipe Wells, Beatty and back.
4011 mikes on the odometer. Changed the oil from GN4 to HP4S.
I understand that the build quality of the Thailand Triumphs is top notch. But again, if I'm being totally honest I'd find the bikes more appealing if they were still built in England. If I was shopping for a Harley Davidson, I'd prefer that it be built in the USA. I'm glad that the CB1100 is built in Japan. That's not meant as a knock on bikes built in other countries. But if for me, that direct lineage to a company's manufacturing heritage is important, especially when it comes to bikes like Bonnevilles, CB1100s and most HD's where the company is banking on their heritage as part of the the appeal of these bikes. I understand that some people don't care about this sort of thing and that's okay. Everyone else is free to spend their money as they wish, that's as it should be of course. But when it's my money that I'm spending, I tend to pay attention that kind of thing.
As far as Harley Davidsons go, the only time I personally have found myself really tempted by one is when they released the XR1200R. I really like the concept of that bike, a visual tribute to the XR750. Had that bike featured at least 18" wheels front and back to give it a bit more of flat-track vibe I would have found much harder to resist. When Triumph slapped 17" wheels on the front of the Bonnevilles a few years back I was similarly disappointed. For that matter I feel the same way about the CB1100 RS. Not that it's a bad looking bike, it simply doesn't look retro enough for me. If I were to give up the 18" hoops I'd probably opt for the CB1000R (provided I could find a low enough seat for it that is, lol). That bike is probably as close as Honda is going to come to another Hawk GT.
Basically, if I'm going to spend my money on a motorcycle, it's definitely going to have to appeal to my visual tastes. I tend to be that way with all my vehicles. But when I finally do find what i like, I also tend to stick with my cars, trucks and motorcycles for a fairly long time (well over a decade on average). I realize that I tend to be an exception with regards to a lot of this stuff, but hey it works for me.
As far as Harley Davidsons go, the only time I personally have found myself really tempted by one is when they released the XR1200R. I really like the concept of that bike, a visual tribute to the XR750. Had that bike featured at least 18" wheels front and back to give it a bit more of flat-track vibe I would have found much harder to resist. When Triumph slapped 17" wheels on the front of the Bonnevilles a few years back I was similarly disappointed. For that matter I feel the same way about the CB1100 RS. Not that it's a bad looking bike, it simply doesn't look retro enough for me. If I were to give up the 18" hoops I'd probably opt for the CB1000R (provided I could find a low enough seat for it that is, lol). That bike is probably as close as Honda is going to come to another Hawk GT.
Basically, if I'm going to spend my money on a motorcycle, it's definitely going to have to appeal to my visual tastes. I tend to be that way with all my vehicles. But when I finally do find what i like, I also tend to stick with my cars, trucks and motorcycles for a fairly long time (well over a decade on average). I realize that I tend to be an exception with regards to a lot of this stuff, but hey it works for me.
peterbaron
Road warrior
+ 1Banned_imp said:
PB
HD would never have a spot in my garage...if given for free, I would immediately trade it in for Honda or something else...
....prehistoric design, noisemakers...
pb
My "prehistoric noisemakers" has carried my wife and I for 112,000km completely trouble free.
Over the Rocky Mtns, across the Mojave Desert in the middle of July at 100mph all day long, Blue Ridge Parkway, Mt Washington, you get the picture.
Now it has a sidecar that carries my special needs daughter. That's a lot of extra weight and it never misses a beat.
I thought we were above this kind of slagging on this forum.
Perhaps I'm in the wrong place.
I am glad that you like your Harley... be proud of it...:clap:..and keep it your way
Was not meant to hurt HD owners feelings...
Even if any kind of thing had multi problems per day, it becomes NO issue if someone just loves it...
Keep :biker: trouble free
pb
infinite_ideation_imp
First service completed
This post deserves a reply.Ulvetanna_imp said:This post deserves a reply.Banned_imp said:
I never met a motorcycle I didn't like.
I"ve had three Harleys, enjoyed every mile.
There was thread about Cycle World going quarterly, Sport Rider failing, and so on.
H-D sees the future and is going to be way ahead of the game, because Millennials do not know, nor do they care, about things such as changing oil, adjusting valves, and all that. They just want to have fun.
It IS about LIFESTYLE now. H-D gets it.
When they get this electric thing rolling, they'll be selling the most classic American bikes on the planet along with the most advanced bikes on the planet.
That's just good business sense.
To W/R:
I never met a motorcycle I didn't like.
I"ve had three Harleys, enjoyed every mile.
There was thread about Cycle World going quarterly, Sport Rider failing, and so on.
H-D sees the future and is going to be way ahead of the game, because Millennials do not know, nor do they care, about things such as changing oil, adjusting valves, and all that. They just want to have fun.
It IS about LIFESTYLE now. H-D gets it.
When they get this electric thing rolling, they'll be selling the most classic American bikes on the planet along with the most advanced bikes on the planet.
That's just good business sense.
To W/R:
Personally I disagree that Harley gets it. I'm not attacking the people who ride their products, however I as a "millennial" don't mind the raw work characteristic that older people clamor about. Just about every conversation about young riders seems to stem from the notion that young riders only want fun and instant gratification, yet seem to forget that they were very much like that in their youth and it's a phase of life. However I'm not going to debate that, though back to Harley. Their marketing is very sub-par, and personifies a lifestyle characteristic of men attracting women with a cool factor. That's an image that I as well as many others felt should have died decades ago and it plays into a very negative connotation and stereotype against their brand that leads most people to believe all Harley riders are "that guy". Furthermore the brand is overpriced for their marketing demographic. You can't expect to target "millennials" with unrealistic expectations about their product AND make them unattainable at the same time. The icing on the cake is that a) the bikes are like boats, a hole you throw money into. They cost a lot to maintain and suffer lower production quality than competitors that are cheaper. b) the aesthetic of the brand appeals primarily to older riders - not a bad thing but plays back into the marketing. You can't expect to deliver a message to a group of potential buyers and not have a product thats both affordable and appealing.
Harley is investing a lot into the electric bike, but it's (imo) too late. Other brands have been doing it better and longer, and once the tech is mature others will follow suit. Harley's product will be expensive, Kawasaki/Honda/Yamaha, etc. will produce a subjectively better alternative and produce it cheaper. I personally don't want HD as a brand to die, but their marketing, style, price, quality and arrogance need to change before I'd ever consider their products. If you even compare HD to Indian, Indian is outperforming HD and offers fun retro bikes with better lineups and build quality. There's a lot that needs to improve, and this era for HD is most likely the make it or break it moment for them.
Houtman_imp
Road warrior
I personally like the looks of the Indians a lot more than the Harleys.
Also I am not a fan of the image most (not all) Harley riders project.
"loud pipes safes lives" but where is your protective gear to protect yourself ?
Also I am not a fan of the image most (not all) Harley riders project.
"loud pipes safes lives" but where is your protective gear to protect yourself ?
emptysea
Road warrior
From my reading of the circumstances, I'm not sure that we can draw any conclusions about the future of HD much less the future of motorcycling in the United States. I think that HD's announcement of their commitment to bring an electric motorcycle to market in 18 months is a fairly good indicator that, somewhat ironically, they are not going to go quietly away.
infinite_ideation_imp
First service completed
I feel similarly. The bikes aren't attractive to me, the brand hasn't done much to appeal to me, and A LOT (not all) of the riders try to project the old school bad a** gangbanger look of a hell's angel rider of the 70s. Granted a lot of riders don't ride like that, but a lot of them do - especially around where I live. It's just not attractive to me, and pushes me away from the brand despite the brands meager attempts to change their target demographics. Granted a lot of people like this look, and that's fine they can do them. The climate though is changing quite rapidly and their market cap is fading, especially with the gradual end of the boomer era.Houtman_imp said:
I don't think it's possible to draw an end conclusion, however you can draw the conclusion that they're downsizing and taking a leap of faith with their new investments to innovate and change their brands appeal. Someone else (on another forum) made a good point that the production of HD bikes currently is highly inefficient, as opposed to other large manufacturers that automate a lot of the construction process. In order to stay competitive, HD will need to improve their build quality for the price their bikes are sold for or decrease the price of their bikes, otherwise adopt new manufacturing standards to build faster, cheaper motorcycles that appeal to a wider audience (hence the electric bike). HD has and will continue to try to cater more towards the rebel riders, however they need to reach a point where someone will strongly consider their product versus [insert any other brand] outside of bespoke brands like Ducati - which HD tried and failed to purchase.EmptySea_imp said:
emptysea
Road warrior
I agree, except with "leap of faith". I think, as you state, that this move was a calculated business decision, not necessarily made from desperation, but more from realization that they must be more efficient and innovative in design and production if they are to remain viable.
infinite_ideation_imp
First service completed
The reason why I guess I call it a leap of faith is because they need to maintain their current base while growing a new base. The transition from old to new can create a lot of conflict with old and new HD riders. You don't want to shun the old and discourage their potential future investments, but you also want to appeal to people like me who like retro/sport heritage bikes but don't like the brand in its current state. If done sloppily it will create brand identity confusion and much like Indian before, struggle to maintain a consistent base and lose on sales and growth. HD is clearly large enough to sustain their business for some time, they just need to make practical decisions. It's not the end of the world for their brand, they just need to be able to compete at the same level as the popular import brands.EmptySea_imp said:
edit: By compete against other brands, I mean take full advantage of manufacturing automation yet still offer bespoke options for the classic riders who can afford them.
LongRanger_imp
Road warrior
I've never owned a Harley, but I don't understand where these opinions of "poor quality" are coming from, especially from folks who have never owned one. It strikes me as biased and misinformed. There's nothing inherently bad about HD from a quality standpoint, through I appreciate if one doesn't find the styling or image of the bikes to their liking. Lots of folks hate Hondas for the same reason, despite the fact they've never owned one, let alone even ridden one.
the Ferret
Road warrior
I've had 6 Harleys but the oldest one was 1949 and the newest 1994. I'd own another one, but I'm a standard/sport touring type rider and they just don't make anything that suits me. However if it came down to 2 similar bikes and one was a Honda and the other a Harley, I'd choose the Honda. I've had great service out of all of my Honda products (all 20+ of them)
LongRanger, the "poor quality" comments regarding Harley stem from decades of...poor quality. In any of the industry studies relating to rates of incident and overall reliability, Harley always ranked at or very near the bottom, in large part because the bikes simply shook the ancillary components to death.
"My motor runs strong. I have X-amount of miles, and she's never given out on me," was the old refrain from the Harley Faithful.
Sure, but how many other parts on your bike failed?
Now, clearly Harley has made great strides in recent years toward modernizing their bikes and making them more reliable. They are no longer anywhere near as shaky and problem-riddled as they were in the Bad Old Days. That being said, they are also still nowhere near as reliable as a Yamaha or Honda.
Not an opinion, nor mere anecdotal evidence. This is a basic statistical fact borne out by annual industry studies of overall reliability.
"My motor runs strong. I have X-amount of miles, and she's never given out on me," was the old refrain from the Harley Faithful.
Sure, but how many other parts on your bike failed?
Now, clearly Harley has made great strides in recent years toward modernizing their bikes and making them more reliable. They are no longer anywhere near as shaky and problem-riddled as they were in the Bad Old Days. That being said, they are also still nowhere near as reliable as a Yamaha or Honda.
Not an opinion, nor mere anecdotal evidence. This is a basic statistical fact borne out by annual industry studies of overall reliability.
peterbaron
Road warrior
+1VLJ_imp said:
pb
Yet at an individual level, anecdotal evidence--particularly if it's one's own--is often what influences the next decision.VLJ_imp said:
I had an electrical gremlin on my '04 Sportster, and possibly on my '14 Standard CB1100. I loved both bikes, but no longer have either...conclusion: I will NOT buy a bike manufactured in 2024.
infinite_ideation_imp
First service completed
Yet at an individual level, anecdotal evidence--particularly if it's one's own--is often what influences the next decision.pdedse_imp said:
I had an electrical gremlin on my '04 Sportster, and possibly on my '14 Standard CB1100. I loved both bikes, but no longer have either...conclusion: I will NOT buy a bike manufactured in 2024.
It's not even anecdotal, here's an article published on Fool with findings from consumer reports (study performed in 2014) based on bikes manf. and sold between 2009-2012. I think that's still recent enough to be relevant as there haven't been significant strides in tech advances since then - just more electronics. Though this could also be due to Harley having a much larger footprint in the US as they account for the largest majority of bikes sold.
Is Harley-Davidson the Worst Motorcycle Money Can Buy? | The Motley Fool
The statistics implied illustrate that Harley owners (alongside BMW) are three to six times more likely to report an issue than other brands. The good news is the issues were cheap to fix, however it does extrapolate to being more expensive to maintain, and less reliable than the competition. I would be interested to know whether or not there's been a revamp of similar studies over the past couple years.
I agree though - once you experience a problem with a specific product or brand, you may be discouraged from buying from them again. Brands like Yamaha/Honda forged years of dedication to building reliable, low maintenance bikes where-as other brands dedicated years to forging an 'experience'.
