Character

[Cormanus]

I'm a bit interested in what constitutes character in a motorcycle.

The Ferret has described it as follows:

Do you agree that character is a euphemism for unreliability? Or is it something more? For example, Moto Guzzi and Ducati are often called character bikes. Is it because they don't copy the design of more traditional British, American and Japanese bikes? Is it that they are Italian and there's a particular view of Italian design and build?

Is it that they are things many aspire to but can't have and so they mask their envy with a certain disparagement?

I've no idea, really, but I'm interested in what you might think.

 

[PowerDubs_imp]

I've owned cars with character. I've owned bikes with character.

To me- it is usually a combination of a good sound and a little spunk in throttle response.

Give me a throaty intake noise, a little voice on the back end and a little hit of accel if I give it the beans.



Example- here is my Vw R32 from a decade ago- sit and listen to the entire video and tell me it didn't have character. Trust me it is worth the time to anybody who claims to like motorized videos.

Please forgive me that I filmed it with a 2004 cell phone zip tied to my rear windshield wiper.

And if that isn't enough-

Yea I know it isn't a bike, but I've never filmed a bike.

My '83 IT250 and my '89 FZR600 both had character- neither were stock.

Well- nothing I've ever owned stays stock..

 

[the Ferret]

I've often wondered what constitutes character myself Cormanus, but in talking with guys who say their bikes have character, they are usually the bikes that exhibit the tendencies of those I described above.

Honda's are known to be oil tight, smooth, and reliable with a strong dealer network, as famed mc writer Peter Egan once said he" has never had a Honda that failed to bring him home". Yet Honda's are said to have no character.

His Norton had character, yet it left him and his wife stranded on a west coast trip and had to be freighted home while he took a greyhound back home to Wisconsin.

Guys on Harley's like to say their bikes have character, yet they vibrate and leak oil (at least they used to), and sometimes break down on the side of the road. Used to be they were downright cantankerous, Hard to start, Bad brakes. Stiff clutches. Character I am told.

Moto Guzzi's are said to have character, but they are not the most reliable mills out there (until you get them sorted I often hear.. personally I like to buy my bikes pre-sorted). You gas them and they twist to the side. They don't look Japanese. I read in that other thread Frulk said of his Moto Guzzi

"The Guzzi is a 2013 bought new and now has 7006 babied miles on it. My dealer folded up shop about a year ago. The rear running lights don't work (but brakes/license plate and blinkers do). It's slowly leaking some type of oil around the rear drum. I've checked all the fluids and can't trace it down. After I get back from Europe in Sept I plan to ship it to Harper's Moto Guzzi in Missouri for an overhaul and to have a number of issues addressed i.e. new tires/front fork cartridges installed/ routine maint/oil sump installed etc. After that it will only see the road on Sat/Sundays on short jaunts over the mt's and to coffee shops"

If my "un-babied" CB had had those issues at 7000 miles and needed to be shipped someplace for an overhaul just so I could ride it on short jaunts on Sat/Sun I wouldn't consider my bike having character, I'd consider it having a "For Sale" sign on it and I'd be looking for another model of motorcycle (no offense Frulk)

My son's Ducati, another brand that supposedly has character, was bought brand new, babied and yet had electrical problems, persistent oil leaks and the transmission locked up causing multiple trailer trips to the nearest Ducati dealer 2 hours away (our Cincinnati dealer folded tent and left after 2 years). Rare? He sent me a link one time from the Monster forum. 5 of the first 6 threads were complaints that their Ducati's suddenly quit running. I'm not joking. I personally know 3 people who have owned Ducatis, 2 of them relatives, all 3 have had issues enough that 2 of them got traded in on another brand of motorcycles ( a KTM and a Triumph) Character I guess.

I don't know.. the character thing confuses me, I don't confess to understand it, but listening to people who have bikes that supposedly have character, that's how I came up with my description above.

 

[Guth_imp]

"Character" is hard to define in this case, being such a subjective element.

I'd put it this way:
If someone assembled a group of street bikes (4 bikes, 8 bikes, how ever many bikes, it doesn't really matter) and you were given your choice to ride any one of them for an hour, you'd probably choose the one that had the most character (as defined by you).

Now say you were to pick from the same group of bikes a single one to ride for an entire day, then for a week, or a month or a year. My guess is that as the period of time increases the appeal of character begins to fade a bit as things like comfort and reliability take on greater importance.




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[Retsel_imp]

I don't know. But to me any character in a motorcycle is given by the people that ride them. A motorcycle, to me, has no character when it comes off the factory floor. It is the owner of the inanimate object, be it motorcycle, auto, aircraft, boat or whatever that gives it character. With the single exception of Christine. That was one mean Plymouth Fury with attitude and loads of "character"! So, to me an old bike with lots of miles and multiple owners, each making their own modifications and adding to the character, has much more " character" than any new one off the assembly line.

This is my favorite definition of "character".


The aggregate of features and traits that form the individual nature of some person or thing.

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[the Ferret]

Interesting definition.

By that measure my ST 1300 is loaded with character. The paint on the tank is scratched and chafed from years of tank bag use. The saddlebag lids on both sides of the bike have dozens of shoe sole marks from me getting on and off with my stubby legs unable to clear everything. There are dead bugs everywhere, many of them that will never come off, and tiny specks of white paint where I rode thru where a village road crew was cross walk striping on a trip to the U.P. and the paint overspray got me. I added a reflective miniature Starwars X wing fighter to the front because I couldn't get the paint overspray off and the white specs on the black body looked like a deep space solar system. Made sense on a bike that I nicknamed STarship for it's ability to transport me cross country at warp speed...and the inevitable wear that comes from being ridden nearly 90,000 miles.Lol

And here I thought it was just a very well used Honda with no character lol

 

[Retsel_imp]

Like you, your CB is loaded with plenty of "character"!

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[Aussieflyer]

Hhmmm ... 'Character', that's a handy word to describe the collection of attributes about objects or living beings. I'd say that every bike has character because, like beauty, it's in the eye of the beholder. Our CB has 'character', it's a bit plush, smooth, slightly chubby, overweight, and very dependable. Some may say it's boring but I prefer that 'type' of character to something that is rough, too loud, lethargic, smelly and unreliable. The incredibly boring BMWK100RT i owned for just three months had character, i just didn't like it, however my much less refined VTR1000 and I became very good friends for quite some time. So to me it's the 'type' of character that matters, that's what keeps me coming back for more long after the honeymoon period is over.

 

[Nortoon_imp]

Character to me would be rather elastic depending on the use of the motorcycle, and your stage of life.

The ones I remember most fondly were my BSA Lightnings. The first I converted to a café racer in the late 60s. The second I restored in the late 70s. The strong but lumpy motor and beautiful exhaust sound were the characteristics that set it apart from other motorcycles that I owned. The 1966 was my first big bike, the 1971 was rescued from being a quasi-chopper.

A 1971 Yamaha 350 R5. I installed a set of clubman handlebars on it upside down and rode it as a café racer. That was the only mod I had to make to that bike as it was light, nimble, quick, and handled extremely well. Its 103 MPH top speed qualified as a true café racer.

A 1972 Kawasaki H2 Mach IV, a jet of a motorcycle that was the hooligan bike of its era. After selling our British motorcycles, two buddies and I had to learn how to ride a motorcycle quickly and smoothly. This was truly a bike that could earn its reputation as the widow maker if handled improperly. But what a hoot to ride.

Our 1982 Goldwing Aspencade, the Cadillac of motorcycles according to my wife. We travelled thousands of miles through Canada and America on it over a 9 year period. A beautiful motorcycle that was quiet, comfortable, and reliable. Penny actually fell asleep on it one day as we were riding.

 

[Wisedrum]

I'm more interested in good than in bad characteristics of a motorbike, which were described in this thread before. I gain the impression, that one often mixes up some attributes like not being reliable or coming up with some mechanic malefunction like oil leaking are the things, that form the character of a bike, because they are so apparent.

Some will find my 2 motorbikes boring as I read sometimes in test reports or descriptions of motorbikes after their testrides. Boring, because they don't pull like mad, don't rumble or being loud enough. What attractes me, and I consider these to be good characteristics, they don't be aggresive and have good torque, that pulls nicely and steadily over a wide rev range. They look good to me and feel good whenever I ride them. This is a very personal assessment. Other riders will come to a totally different conclusion.

The character of a bike, if it ever has some by itself, depends deeply in what a rider wants to see in it and what he tries to experience with it. Characters form each other through the time they spend together. But some relationships never come to life, because they lacking the initial attraction, which may offer some deep insight looks and can change your point of view in the time after your first meeting, if you had given it a chance.

Wisedrum

 

[the Ferret]

Most riders of those other brands would tell you unequivocally, that NO Honda has character, (well maybe a GB 500), that they are boring (as Wisedrum said), and more closely resemble appliances than proper motorbikes. If I have heard/read that once, I have heard it 10,000 times.

 

[CA200_imp]

When I had a motorcycle acc. store we saw characters every day. They walked through the front door!

 

[pdedse]

Most riders of those other brands would tell you unequivocally, that NO Honda has character, (well maybe a GB 500), that they are boring (as Wisedrum said), and more closely resemble appliances than proper motorbikes. If I have heard/read that once, I have heard it 10,000 times.

I wonder if the notion that "NO Honda has character" simply stems from the perception that Honda engines generally produce a quiet, refined "hum" instead of an obvious "rumble". Stereotypes of motorcycles are that they are loud and rumble, have a "throaty voice" whatever you want to call it. And the limited Hondas I've owned and ridden are less so. If you were to take away all engine noise from all motorcycles, what would pass for "character" Looks? Performance? Reliability? I would say after the way they sound, character points would be given to these traits in that order: looks, performance and reliability. So what Honda perhaps is best known for, reliability (?), might be on the lower end of "what gives a bike character".

Much ado about nothing, really. Character, lack of it, other peoples' perceptions, etc. do not detract from my enjoyment of the CB1100. I know why I like it.

 

[flynrider]

Most riders of those other brands would tell you unequivocally, that NO Honda has character, (well maybe a GB 500), that they are boring (as Wisedrum said), and more closely resemble appliances than proper motorbikes. If I have heard/read that once, I have heard it 10,000 times.

That's pretty much what I hear from my non-Honda riding buddies. The one thing they do seem to agree on is that none of the bikes with "character" are as reliable as a character-lacking Honda.

I value being able to hop on a bike and riding across town or across the country with the knowledge that I'll likely make it there without any unplanned roadside stops. That's my kind of character

 

[DaSwami_imp]

The Moto Guzzi does not have a rear drum, it has a disc brake and a differential, maybe that is what he referred to?

My V7 (2013) and V7II's (2016) are so far well sorted right out of the gate. No issues whatsoever, except just 100% pure fun to ride. They don't "twist" to the side when you blip the throttle, they just lean a little, a little movement, it's a hoot!

Only issue I have with them is the aforementioned poor dealer network, it's a downer.

One more time, let's review the checklist on the V7...

Shaft drive
Lightweight (~~420 pounds)
Screw and locknut valve adjustments and cylinders hanging right there like a pair of jugs, easy to work on.
Huge 5.5+ gallon tank = best range of any bike I've owned
Fuel injected
Stone model has cast wheels, others have nice spoke wheels
6-speed transmission on the newer models
Subjective, but great styling!
A pleasant, torquey, snappy engine that likes to rev
Subjective, but lovely throaty factory exhaust
ABS and traction control for under $9K
For me, amazing handling (factory Pirelli tires stick like glue)

LOADS of character lol

The V7 moves my nearly 300 pound carcass like it is not even there!

I like the very first post after the initial post, it's about sound, going against the grain, being unique, standing out from the cookie cutter crowd. Maybe I'll concur with ferret, perhaps needing a "little" TLC haha

 

[Henrik_imp]

To me, one of the things that defines character in a bike is when it takes a bit of effort to get to know and master it. But once you have, the reward is all the bigger. It is not that these are flaws, although often bikes with "character" do indeed come with certain flaws.

To me, the Honda VFR 800 I had in 1999 certainly had character, and it was flawless. It did take a bit of effort to fully learn how to master it, but then it was amazing. However, it was easier at the first approach than say the Ducati ST2 I got later. That bike certainly had loads of character, and for a person who was not used to it it would be a bit challenging at first. However, in spite of the reputation Ducatis may have, I never had any problems with it.

After that, my Moto Morini Corsaro was bursting with character. It was a beast, and certainly not for a beginner or the faint of heart. But when you got to know it, and understand how to ride it, the reward was amazing. Unfortunately it came with loads of reliability issues.

As for the CB1100, it may lack a bit of character in that it is very easy to ride, and smooth. It never really surprises you, or catches you unaware, but it just always delivers flawlessly. It doesn't get my heart pumping while riding like the Corsaro did, but it brings me another joy. It allows me to more enjoy the ride, and not have to be as focused on the actual riding.

 

[rboe]

My take (and this is very subjective) the bikes that get labeled as having character are the ones that a good low frequency vibration (Twin four cycles are good, just about any two stroke is not), followed by a deep low frequency rumble from the exhaust.

Any high frequency vibrations are bad. Little to no frequencies are bad (I think people are looking for some sort of positive feedback from engine room after twisting the throttle).

E.g. a big ol' steam engine has a lot of character compared to a diesel electric. One is great on Sunday, the other is better Monday through Friday......

I think all bikes have character; it's just that some people respond better to some of the character than others. Some days I like the Griso, most days I prefer the CB. Or oddly enough, the XR650L (light and nimble - I like nimble - and torque, I love torque!).

 

[Wisedrum]

My take (and this is very subjective) the bikes that get labeled as having character are the ones that a good low frequency vibration (Twin four cycles are good, just about any two stroke is not), followed by a deep low frequency rumble from the exhaust.

Any high frequency vibrations are bad. Little to no frequencies are bad (I think people are looking for some sort of positive feedback from engine room after twisting the throttle).

E.g. a big ol' steam engine has a lot of character compared to a diesel electric. One is great on Sunday, the other is better Monday through Friday......

I think all bikes have character; it's just that some people respond better to some of the character than others. Some days I like the Griso, most days I prefer the CB. Or oddly enough, the XR650L (light and nimble - I like nimble - and torque, I love torque!).

Strangely enough, Honda's engineers announced having programmed right that kind of feedback from the CB's engine. Or should I write, they tried to? Suprise, does anyone has found these kind of vibrations?

Yes, with imagination there are some little by little above 3.000 revs.
But all in all the CB is a very smooth running machine. I prefer this kind of feedback or let's say character.

Wisedrum

 

[the Ferret]

I've had 3 big inch Harley Twins (49,56,and 57). They had thumping vibes. A lot of them. One time my brother and I were headed to Gatlinburg. He was on his Moto Guzzi 850 Eldorado and I was on my 57 Panhead. We were headed down I-75 in northern Kentucky. I was having trouble keeping my feet on the pegs and my helmet was vibrating around on my head. My glasses were bouncing, my vision was blurry. I look over and my brother is just sitting there on his Guzzi behind his Wixom fairing without a worry in the world. I motioned him to pull over. He asked what was wrong and I told him I couldn't take it anymore I was going back home. When I got home I sold the panhead and bought a characterless 2 stroke Yamaha RD 350. Great bike. I also had a Sportster (2 actually..59 and 94) that had the thumping V twin vibes. Below 55 mph they just shook. Above 55 MPH it shook so bad it made your hands and feet itch and about 60 mph was all I could stand for any length of time. Then I've had (3.. a 73, a 79 and an 81) 650 Yamaha parallel twins. They had thumping twin vibes too... just across and not fore and aft. At idle they would walk across the garage floor on their own. At speed they shook. At a lot of speed they broke delicate things like bulbs, and license plates lol. Also had a 69 BSA 750 Rocket 3 triple. It ran well, and as I remember was pretty smooth compared to the others. It's character claim to fame was the persistent oil leak I couldn't fix, that permanently marked every pair of levis I owned at the time. Sold it too. All 6 made a lot more noise than my CB. Guess I've had my share of "character", but just found it mostly annoying and aggravating lol.

 

[Nortoon_imp]

The 750cc BSA Rocket triples were a lot less lumpy than the 650cc BSA Lightning twins.


The offset smaller pistons in the Rocket 3 allowed the crankshaft to turn far more smoothly. The larger pistons in the Lightning both rose and fell at the same time. They had a huge flywheel in order to provide enough inertia to keep the pistons in motion.

Slinging all that weight around was the reason BSAs twins were called Birmingham Vibrators. However that lumpy engine, lots of torque, and that beautiful exhaust sound were the things that endeared me to my Lightnings.

My first Lightning bathed the greasy side down with oil because of a built in chain oiler. When I rebuilt the motor, I found a small pocket inside the primary chaincase cover. It gathered oil when the triple link primary chain was in motion. The oil would pass down through a channel to a short rubber hose over the drive chain. I dropped some solder in the hole in the bottom of the pocket. No more oil leak. Drive chains were lubed by boiling them in the motor oil removed during an oil change, which were far more frequent then.