CB1100 Idle speed instability problem

[flynrider]

This problem is getting curiouser and curiouser...

I'll say!

What I find interesting is that the problem only seems to show up in stop-n-go city riding. My '13 displayed the low idle condition just once (at 18K miles), after a few weeks of just stop and go city riding. After that I went back to a more normal routine which included making some power on the freeway. Haven't seen the problem recur (it's been about 3 months).

Given the number of variables involved in the system (ECU programming, numerous sensors, control motors, etc...) I don't hold out much hope that we'll be able to isolate the cause of the issue in this thread. It's one of those needle in a haystack things.

Since Honda uses these same components in other bikes without issue, I have to wonder what makes our bikes different? The obvious thing is that our bikes are air cooled, which results in a much wider range of combustion temperatures. Q: Is there any other large air cooled engine that Honda has equipped with this PGM-FI system?

 

[Riko_imp]

riding style, Lol

anyway, be sure to show him my video of the issue (thats resolved by simply changing the whole throttle body, under warranty)

there is nothing more clear to show an issue like a good video
images say more than words

I think he was referring to throttle use.

I think he was referring to throttle use.
I know

but even the slightest hint of tought of linking riding style as a possible cause of the throttle issue is absurd

all this evolution in automotive and electronical technology such as Fuel Injection, makes his conclusion a joke tbh, especially when you think about it

sounds like a desperate mechanic to me

I think he was referring to throttle use.
I know

but even the slightest hint of tought of linking riding style as a possible cause of the throttle issue is absurd

all this evolution in automotive and electronical technology such as Fuel Injection, makes his conclusion a joke tbh, especially when you think about it

sounds like a desperate mechanic to me
Well I guess you'd better just go sort it yourself then.

There's always those that know best. I was just passing on his comments, and what Ferret says above is in fact just what this guy said to me re the machine 'learning' it's operator. Change the operator and there may be problems. He went on to say that the bike manufacturers are quite open about their fuel injection systems being technically behind those of the car industry.
He was just talking, thinking out aloud and calmly throwing out ideas and possible causes, certainly nothing desperate about him and he certainly wasn't desperately trying to skirt the issue.

I think he was referring to throttle use.
I know

but even the slightest hint of tought of linking riding style as a possible cause of the throttle issue is absurd

all this evolution in automotive and electronical technology such as Fuel Injection, makes his conclusion a joke tbh, especially when you think about it

sounds like a desperate mechanic to me
Well I guess you'd better just go sort it yourself then.

There's always those that know best. I was just passing on his comments, and what Ferret says above is in fact just what this guy said to me re the machine 'learning' it's operator. Change the operator and there may be problems. He went on to say that the bike manufacturers are quite open about their fuel injection systems being technically behind those of the car industry.
He was just talking, thinking out aloud and calmly throwing out ideas and possible causes, certainly nothing desperate about him and he certainly wasn't desperately trying to skirt the issue. thats the point, we cant seem to soet it, nor trained mechanics and if so called trained mechanics answer quastions just to give an answer, thats no help at all.

Btw it got 'sorted' by changing my whole throttle body.

ECU was left alone...

This problem is getting curiouser and curiouser...

I'll say!

What I find interesting is that the problem only seems to show up in stop-n-go city riding. My '13 displayed the low idle condition just once (at 18K miles), after a few weeks of just stop and go city riding. After that I went back to a more normal routine which included making some power on the freeway. Haven't seen the problem recur (it's been about 3 months).

Given the number of variables involved in the system (ECU programming, numerous sensors, control motors, etc...) I don't hold out much hope that we'll be able to isolate the cause of the issue in this thread. It's one of those needle in a haystack things.

Since Honda uses these same components in other bikes without issue, I have to wonder what makes our bikes different? The obvious thing is that our bikes are air cooled, which results in a much wider range of combustion temperatures. Q: Is there any other large air cooled engine that Honda has equipped with this PGM-FI system?

Since Honda uses these same components in other bikes without issue, I have to wonder what makes our bikes different? The obvious thing is that our bikes are air cooled, which results in a much wider range of combustion temperatures. Q: Is there any other large air cooled engine that Honda has equipped with this PGM-FI system?
looking at their lineup on the website, the CB1100 is the only aircooled bike using the modern pgm fi system

 

[dave]

So, I'm not the only one who experienced an improvement after the WFO ride! Here's an update, and also some more information to ponder: I've put about 600 miles on my bike since the WFO ride I described that (coincidentally?) cured my fast idle / slow idle / stalling. The bike has for the most part been running better than new, except for one extended slow speed, stop and go ride where the idle would momentarily drop to 750 RPM (it used to drop to 500 RPM and sometimes stall) and then return to normal (1,050 RPM) - this happened three times. If you're experiencing the idle problems, please comment on the following: johnf514 uploaded a video (at my request) of the sound his fuel pump and IACV make as you turn the ignition on. John had his IACV replaced by the dealer, and it cured his idle problem. Listen to John's video and you can hear the IACV cycling rather loudly (the fuel pump has it's own sound). When my bike experiences the idle problems I can barely hear the sound of the IACV cycling when I turn on the ignition. When my bike is running good (no idle problems), the sound of the IACV cycling when you turn on the key is MUCH louder, and sounds exactly like the video johnf514 recorded. Please listen to John's video (it can be found somewhere in this thread), and then listen to the sounds your bike makes - do they sound the same? Something tells me that when you can barely hear the sound of the IACV cycling when you turn the key on then you're going to experience the idle problems. So the question is this: Is the problem with the IACV, or with the software or sensor that gives the signal to the IACV?

 

[Lord Popgun]

Or is it not cycling correctly? Like maybe hanging up or somthing. I'd like to see how they have it mounted and how it operates in the throttle body. But, I'm not taking my bike apart to find out. I hope...

 

[johnf514_imp]

Here is the video Dave referenced:

 

[dave]

Here is the video Dave referenced:

Thanks John. Actually, mine is not as loud as yours sounds. I am anxious to hear feedback from others on how theirs sounds.

 

[Riko_imp]

normal

 

[Sandhog_imp]

My bike also sounds normal.

Most recently I've been having the high-idle issue (1500+ rpms). The mechanic at dealership believes replacing the EOT Sensor may fix the problem. I'm heading down the dealership tomorrow so they can replace the part.

 

[dave]

My bike also sounds normal.

Most recently I've been having the high-idle issue (1500+ rpms). The mechanic at dealership believes replacing the EOT Sensor may fix the problem. I'm heading down the dealership tomorrow so they can replace the part.

Unplugging the EOT sensor will cure the problem, but then your "check engine" light and the engine temperature light will both be on. I replaced my EOT sensor and it did not cure the problem. BTY - it's a simple, 10 minute job to do it yourself.

 

[Sandhog_imp]

My bike also sounds normal.

Most recently I've been having the high-idle issue (1500+ rpms). The mechanic at dealership believes replacing the EOT Sensor may fix the problem. I'm heading down the dealership tomorrow so they can replace the part.

Unplugging the EOT sensor will cure the problem, but then your "check engine" light and the engine temperature light will both be on. I replaced my EOT sensor and it did not cure the problem. BTY - it's a simple, 10 minute job to do it yourself.

Unplugging the EOT sensor will cure the problem, but then your "check engine" light and the engine temperature light will both be on. I replaced my EOT sensor and it did not cure the problem. BTY - it's a simple, 10 minute job to do it yourself.
Dave, I hear you, thanks. The bike is under warranty so I want Honda to work through the diagnostic / repair process otherwise I would just take a gamble and purchase and replace the part myself. I really like the CB1100 but these engine idle issues are the pits.

 

[the Ferret]

Strange that it is "suddenly" showing up in the U.S. whereas before it seemed to be a European/Asian issue. Are there more than 3 of you in the US having the issue?

Sandhog
Dave
Johnf514

(and I guess Rolls had it temporarily but it went away after a track session)

 

[johnf514_imp]

Respectfully, it looks like this issue has been happening in the US since the beginning of last year, at least in terms of the posts in this thread and the one below:

Hunting rpm

 

[the Ferret]

So we can add Jeff Hark to the list above, but most of the others in that thread are the same players that are in this thread ( I just read thru 39 pages between the two threads) and most of the others reporting an issue were in Thailand, or England etc and not in the US. Strangely, as far as I know no one in Australia has had an issue, or Canada. At various times we have had members from 21 different countries reporting in here and I would think with the internet being what it is, if it were very widespread we would be having a lot more people reporting issues. It certainly seems to be a rare and random condition. Which is not good news if you have the problem. The more random a problem, the more difficult it is to find a solution.

Considering the bike has been out since 2010 and is in it's 8th continuous year of production around the globe in 2017, it has certainly been a mysterious thing. Of those that have reported the issue, some people fixed their idle issues with a TPS reset, 1 with a new IAVC, 1 with a reflash, 1 with an entire throttle body, 2 with some full throttle running, 1 a new battery and some apparently are un-fixable?

 

[Aka Tsubasa_imp]

So we can add Jeff Hark to the list above, but most of the others in that thread are the same players that are in this thread ( I just read thru 39 pages between the two threads) and most of the others reporting an issue were in Thailand, or England etc and not in the US. Strangely, as far as I know no one in Australia has had an issue, or Canada. At various times we have had members from 21 different countries reporting in here and I would think with the internet being what it is, if it were very widespread we would be having a lot more people reporting issues. It certainly seems to be a rare and random condition. Which is not good news if you have the problem. The more random a problem, the more difficult it is to find a solution.

Considering the bike has been out since 2010 and is in it's 8th continuous year of production around the globe in 2017, it has certainly been a mysterious thing. Of those that have reported the issue, some people fixed their idle issues with a TPS reset, 1 with a new IAVC, 1 with a reflash, 1 with an entire throttle body, 2 with some full throttle running, 1 a new battery and some apparently are un-fixable?

Excellent synopsis!

 

[Hatred66_imp]

Strange that it is "suddenly" showing up in the U.S. whereas before it seemed to be a European/Asian issue. Are there more than 3 of you in the US having the issue?

Sandhog
Dave
Johnf514

(and I guess Rolls had it temporarily but it went away after a track session)

You can add me to the list. I own a 2014 Std model bought in Los Angeles. The issue showed up about 2 years ago and still showing up randomly, although looks like hot days with lots of stop and go is a clear trigger for the low idling. High idling shows up less often and always the same day that I'm having low idling issues. Weird uh?
I did the WFO and I replaced the battery (dead), but the issue came back. I've started putting lower octane fuel as a new thing to try (checked the manual and the recommended is 86 and higher for the US, I was always putting 91, so why not trying something new).

This is a machine, there is NOTHING in an engine that can't be explained. Really Honda? This is your "signature" bike? you have the MotoGP champion bike out there but nobody can find a solution for this? Come on man!!!!!!

 

[Aka Tsubasa_imp]

Knowing this issue, would any of you hesitate to buy a 2017 for fear of a chronic un-solveable problem?

 

[SSK Dave_imp]

Knowing this issue, would any of you hesitate to buy a 2017 for fear of a chronic un-solveable problem?

Think I will try to investigate this further here in Thai owners sites before 'pulling the plug' on a new RS.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[the Ferret]

I would have no fear at all about buying a 2017.

 

[Cormanus]

I would have no fear at all about buying a 2017.

Neither would I.

 

[Aka Tsubasa_imp]

Thanks for the feedback. I have money down on a 2017 and expect delivery in early June as it ships May 29th from Japan. I bought the five year warranty for piece of mind but would rather a dealer tech not have to undo anything from the factory for a good long while. Being in manufacturing and having turned wrenches professionally at one point in my life, I feel the factory can do quite a bit better job than most repair shops and prefer their work stay untouched. At least as long as possible.