Buzz Killl?
- Thread starter Ben70_imp
- Start date
Finally got the injector pulse width checked. The pulse width on 1 and 4 injectors is identical, so with that and ignition timing being the same I will see if the cam man has any input. Also seriously considering a PC5, I feel like it is still lean with the Guhl flash. Should probably dyno it again.
Huge surprise that the injector pulse width and ignition timing are the same! I guess the only thing they did was change the cam lobes. There must be a cam grind that will end up as good as stock.
I feel like it's not worth this just to kill the buzz, but I am having too much fun. It's a little disappointing that this information is not available from Honda. They are pretty guarded with their theory information on their cars, too. At least last time I tried.
I haven't really trusted them since my cooling fins didn't clink when I was walking away after a ride.
Ben
Huge surprise that the injector pulse width and ignition timing are the same! I guess the only thing they did was change the cam lobes. There must be a cam grind that will end up as good as stock.
I feel like it's not worth this just to kill the buzz, but I am having too much fun. It's a little disappointing that this information is not available from Honda. They are pretty guarded with their theory information on their cars, too. At least last time I tried.
I haven't really trusted them since my cooling fins didn't clink when I was walking away after a ride.
Ben
PowerDubs_imp
Road warrior
Throw a 2nd intake cam into the exhaust and see what happens??!!
2014 HONDA CB1100 CAMSHAFT INTAKE https://www.ebay.com/itm/401958936093
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
2014 HONDA CB1100 CAMSHAFT INTAKE https://www.ebay.com/itm/401958936093
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
OK, as it turns out, swapping the exhaust cam to the intake side does work quite well, you just have to install it properly.
After determining that the injector duration was the same, and the ignition timing was the same, I was getting frustrated that the performance wasn't closer to original on the dyno.
I had asked a cam man, Joe at American Custom Cams in Glendora CA, to take a look at the intake cam. I told him I wasn't going to make any other performance mods and he figured he could grind it uniformly and I could shim it to specs.
So I got the cam, which looked like a regular exhaust cam but with smaller lobes and when I went to install it I noticed that I was off a tooth on the cam timing.
If you are going to screw up, do it in front of an international audience on a 5000 member forum!:blush:
So of course I wanted to fix it and see what happened right away, but I figured just to see I would try the reworked cam. It worked OK, but I could tell when pulling some of the local hills that it was lacking power to the point that I didn't bother with a dyno run. Nothing against Joe's work, and I would go back to him with an exhaust cam to try to "open it up a bit" for install on the intake side, but he didn't have a lot to work with for just a regrind. I may not be messing with cams anymore though, at least for a while.
So I put my new exhaust cam back in on the intake side, properly, and right away I knew I was close to my stock setup. Ran a couple tanks of gas through it and got 44 mpg, which is about normal for me. The pull at low to middle rpm felt strong and I was eager to see what the dyno had to say.
Hope you can see it. The red line was today, the other was the original. I am running a full Yosh exhaust, and the only difference was I had a Guhl flash performed since the first run.
So the limiter was in effect on the original run (all in 3rd gear) and the hp and torque at the upper rev limit would have probably been close to identical otherwise.
However, both hp and torque are noticeably improved in the low to midrange.
It can be felt and I am Jazzed. Don't know how much was attributable to the flash. It is running less lean in that range now as well and I am sorry I didn't do it both either before or after the flash so I could know exactly what the difference was.
In any case I am happy with the result. I plan on no further performance mods. I know PowerDubs opened up his intake and had other fueling enhancements, but he was after improved performance.
As it is I plan to re-install my 19 tooth front sprocket, and with all that new torque I think I will try my 37 tooth rear again. I plan to do a few trips this summer and the mileage/range increase will be nice to have.
I went about this backwards on a few fronts. I should have verified the ignition timing and injector pulse to be the same, instead of assuming it. And of course it would have helped to install it correctly the first time. And I would have done the re-flash before or after the cam results were in.
But in the end it can be done, with an increase in torque and hp where it is usable. Also reduced buzz, and a comfortable feeling across the rev range.
My apologies for the screw-up on the cam timing, I can't believe it was so obvious when I took it apart.
Ben
After determining that the injector duration was the same, and the ignition timing was the same, I was getting frustrated that the performance wasn't closer to original on the dyno.
I had asked a cam man, Joe at American Custom Cams in Glendora CA, to take a look at the intake cam. I told him I wasn't going to make any other performance mods and he figured he could grind it uniformly and I could shim it to specs.
So I got the cam, which looked like a regular exhaust cam but with smaller lobes and when I went to install it I noticed that I was off a tooth on the cam timing.
If you are going to screw up, do it in front of an international audience on a 5000 member forum!:blush:
So of course I wanted to fix it and see what happened right away, but I figured just to see I would try the reworked cam. It worked OK, but I could tell when pulling some of the local hills that it was lacking power to the point that I didn't bother with a dyno run. Nothing against Joe's work, and I would go back to him with an exhaust cam to try to "open it up a bit" for install on the intake side, but he didn't have a lot to work with for just a regrind. I may not be messing with cams anymore though, at least for a while.
So I put my new exhaust cam back in on the intake side, properly, and right away I knew I was close to my stock setup. Ran a couple tanks of gas through it and got 44 mpg, which is about normal for me. The pull at low to middle rpm felt strong and I was eager to see what the dyno had to say.
Hope you can see it. The red line was today, the other was the original. I am running a full Yosh exhaust, and the only difference was I had a Guhl flash performed since the first run.
So the limiter was in effect on the original run (all in 3rd gear) and the hp and torque at the upper rev limit would have probably been close to identical otherwise.
However, both hp and torque are noticeably improved in the low to midrange.
It can be felt and I am Jazzed. Don't know how much was attributable to the flash. It is running less lean in that range now as well and I am sorry I didn't do it both either before or after the flash so I could know exactly what the difference was.
In any case I am happy with the result. I plan on no further performance mods. I know PowerDubs opened up his intake and had other fueling enhancements, but he was after improved performance.
As it is I plan to re-install my 19 tooth front sprocket, and with all that new torque I think I will try my 37 tooth rear again. I plan to do a few trips this summer and the mileage/range increase will be nice to have.
I went about this backwards on a few fronts. I should have verified the ignition timing and injector pulse to be the same, instead of assuming it. And of course it would have helped to install it correctly the first time. And I would have done the re-flash before or after the cam results were in.
But in the end it can be done, with an increase in torque and hp where it is usable. Also reduced buzz, and a comfortable feeling across the rev range.
My apologies for the screw-up on the cam timing, I can't believe it was so obvious when I took it apart.
Ben
max
Road warrior
Ben that's a great ending, like many others i have followed your work and although i can't say i understand all of this i get enough info out of it to understand what's going on, i do have my limits.
Finding things like that are normal with trying something new, mister Honda made a great deal of them and he learned from them as did myself, getting the result you want or better is the real reward as far as i can see.
To be honest i have not experienced the "buzz" that you mention, maybe that's a good thing since it now doesn't bother me sofar and also do you happen to have a picture of the installed cams?
Finding things like that are normal with trying something new, mister Honda made a great deal of them and he learned from them as did myself, getting the result you want or better is the real reward as far as i can see.
To be honest i have not experienced the "buzz" that you mention, maybe that's a good thing since it now doesn't bother me sofar and also do you happen to have a picture of the installed cams?
I suspect I understand a great deal less than max, but congratulations Ben70. I'm pleased you sorted the problem and got an improved result. Settle now and enjoy the bike.
PowerDubs_imp
Road warrior
Good job! Your fueling is much better, and the tq gained back is impressive.
Did you re-shim when you adjusted the tooth?
I almost wonder if I mis-timed as well since my cams didn't do much...they really should have.
Did you re-shim when you adjusted the tooth?
I almost wonder if I mis-timed as well since my cams didn't do much...they really should have.
I re-shimmed all along. I suspect when I made my final shim adjustment the first time I had the slack in the wrong place when I put it back together, I don't know. I do know since then I make one last check with the tensioner engaged before putting the cover on.
I wonder what your setup would do with a non-staggered intake? Seems to me if the ign. timing and injector timing and pulse width are uniform, uniform cam lobes could help?
I am surprised by the torque, and I wonder how much the flash had to do with it.
Thanks for leading off in this direction, I am enjoying it.
Ben
I wonder what your setup would do with a non-staggered intake? Seems to me if the ign. timing and injector timing and pulse width are uniform, uniform cam lobes could help?
I am surprised by the torque, and I wonder how much the flash had to do with it.
Thanks for leading off in this direction, I am enjoying it.
Ben
PowerDubs_imp
Road warrior
Might help a tad. Might not. Hard to say.
Did you swap in a separate Guhl ecu or flash over your stock one?
Would be great to see a more direct comparison- as it appears your primary gained area coincides with where you added the most fuel, and if I am not mistaken he also does something with the ign timing, not sure of the details- he may advance it, or I've also heard he just removes the 'limiter' of ign in gears 1-3.
My ecu was stock at the time of my dyno. Soon I am going to drag the bike out and fix it up- hope to get back to the dyno with the Guhl ecu now.
Any chance you got the run file this time? Or can ask the shop to email it to you? (simple small file with .drf extension)
I notice the chart you have above is corrected to STD, and I usually use SAE and would love to be able to make a direct overlay in the software.
And as I am sure you know- 'uncorrected' is the actual real power made that day.. just not able to be accurately compared.
Did you swap in a separate Guhl ecu or flash over your stock one?
Would be great to see a more direct comparison- as it appears your primary gained area coincides with where you added the most fuel, and if I am not mistaken he also does something with the ign timing, not sure of the details- he may advance it, or I've also heard he just removes the 'limiter' of ign in gears 1-3.
My ecu was stock at the time of my dyno. Soon I am going to drag the bike out and fix it up- hope to get back to the dyno with the Guhl ecu now.
Any chance you got the run file this time? Or can ask the shop to email it to you? (simple small file with .drf extension)
I notice the chart you have above is corrected to STD, and I usually use SAE and would love to be able to make a direct overlay in the software.
And as I am sure you know- 'uncorrected' is the actual real power made that day.. just not able to be accurately compared.
Josh, I had my stock one flashed, not sure what all was done for sure but I think rev limiters were raised, speed limiter was eliminated, not sure about timing but I think the lean spot was also richened up. He took into account I was stock, with Yosh exhaust and O2 bypassed, and I think he had based it off a previous bike he had dyno tuned. Maybe EmptySea's?
I will check into getting the run file.
Ben
I will check into getting the run file.
Ben
Due to a crush of popular demand, OK, both of you, I was able to get an unflashed 2013 ECM so I could determine what just swapping cams would do.
Thanks to pekingduck for the loan of the ECM.
Unfortunately, it would appear that the limiters are different. Running in 3rd the limiter was coming in at what appears to be 5800 rpm. The lean spot at 3500 rpm is far more exaggerated which appears to cause a loss in power.
At about 3650 rpm it richens up and power and torque bounce up above what my stock setup was.
This is not apples to apples, I should have just replaced the cam, tested, then flashed. I suspect that for whatever reason, the original programs may have changed? I know when I was working at a GM dealership we would occasionally get a notice to do an upgrade flash on certain vehicles. Maybe Honda made some midyear changes.
It does appear that beyond 5500 rpm power seems to be the same as original.
I do know that with the flash and the cam swap it runs great.
Heck, it ran great before! But I really like the torque bump and less buzz.
Sorry, Josh, the dyno man didn't know anything about a run file, said he hadn't dealt with it. I know he dyno tunes Harleys (don't tell anyone), and the sportbike guy across town might have been able to, but I got what I got.
The wheels are already off for new tires and I am swapping sprockets for longer distance cruising this summer.
pekingduck, I will get your ECM back post haste.
Ben
Thanks to pekingduck for the loan of the ECM.
Unfortunately, it would appear that the limiters are different. Running in 3rd the limiter was coming in at what appears to be 5800 rpm. The lean spot at 3500 rpm is far more exaggerated which appears to cause a loss in power.
At about 3650 rpm it richens up and power and torque bounce up above what my stock setup was.
This is not apples to apples, I should have just replaced the cam, tested, then flashed. I suspect that for whatever reason, the original programs may have changed? I know when I was working at a GM dealership we would occasionally get a notice to do an upgrade flash on certain vehicles. Maybe Honda made some midyear changes.
It does appear that beyond 5500 rpm power seems to be the same as original.
I do know that with the flash and the cam swap it runs great.
Heck, it ran great before! But I really like the torque bump and less buzz.
Sorry, Josh, the dyno man didn't know anything about a run file, said he hadn't dealt with it. I know he dyno tunes Harleys (don't tell anyone), and the sportbike guy across town might have been able to, but I got what I got.
The wheels are already off for new tires and I am swapping sprockets for longer distance cruising this summer.
pekingduck, I will get your ECM back post haste.
Ben
PowerDubs_imp
Road warrior
Any dyno run he does, that any shop does, is simply saved in a windows file- the extension is .drf similar to how a picture is .jpg
He has to type
In something like your name to even run and save. He can type that in the search bar, or *.drf and see them all in the results.
What year is your bike? The 2013 and 2014 have different tuning from Honda. Not sure what is changed, but it was written in their factory literature on their site.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Look at your pic- it shows the .drf file names next to each run. He can simply email them to you. They are nice to have to look at and compare stuff in the future. I look at mine still from 15-20 years ago for various reasons some times.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
He has to type
In something like your name to even run and save. He can type that in the search bar, or *.drf and see them all in the results.
What year is your bike? The 2013 and 2014 have different tuning from Honda. Not sure what is changed, but it was written in their factory literature on their site.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Look at your pic- it shows the .drf file names next to each run. He can simply email them to you. They are nice to have to look at and compare stuff in the future. I look at mine still from 15-20 years ago for various reasons some times.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Mine is a '13. The main thing aside from rev limiter with stock ECM appears to be a big lean spot. Unfortunately, for the sake of the scientific method I went about this in the wrong order. However, I am happy with the result. I do think the stock tune is way lean in the midrange, cam or no cam.
Ben
Ben
E11even_Hunnit
Been there
Looking to get my ECU flashed by Guhl on my '14 STD some time after this pandemic is over along with some new rubber, might also do sprockets and chain all at once but maybe not.
What was the cost of the ECU flash and how long did it take them to do it? Without counting shipping time ofc
What was the cost of the ECU flash and how long did it take them to do it? Without counting shipping time ofc
E11even, cost was 375, it was only there for a day or possibly two. He was working thru the plague so unless he caught it you should be good.
Well worth it. If you currently feel a rush of acceleration passing through 4000 rpm, it is because you are coming out of a lean spot, in my opinion.
Ben
Well worth it. If you currently feel a rush of acceleration passing through 4000 rpm, it is because you are coming out of a lean spot, in my opinion.
Ben
the Ferret
Road warrior
Interesting theoryBen70_imp said:
Similar threads
