accidents - an unpleasant subject

[j3gq_imp]

On motorcycles, I had 2 minor accidents in a row, at about age 20 or 22. Next a very close call. Stopped riding for a while, and started again a few years later. Since then, no more wracks, but of course quite a few close calls. Must be now some 35 years without getting hurt and nothing bent. I wish I could say look at this, but unfortunately I have to admit, I've just been lucky a few times. Now, here is the question I ask myself:

In today's traffic (density), not in Utah! ...
given the velocity of traffic,
with the number of trucks around
(and S.U.V.s the size of trucks),
... can an average biker, age 60 +/-10, defensive driver/rider, following the written rules and common sense ... still avoid getting hurt in 2020/21 ?

More precisely, in case you had an accident lately - in retrospect - what was the main cause and could you have avoided that accident and how (other than by staying at home ?

 

[Houtman_imp]

Just be a very defensive rider and be very observant about your surrounding's AND wear proper protective gear , never mind about the cost of this gear , still MUCH cheaper than the medical bills ! Also DO NOT drink when on your bike or before your ride .

 

[GoldOxide_imp]

Fundamental awareness all the time about your surrounding. It is probably second nature to seasoned riders and is no stress to them as awareness is innate.

A seasoned rider is much less likely to react after strategically avoiding a death situation, but simply and defensively maneuver the situation and shake their head or roll their eyes afterwards.

 

[teamvisegrip_imp]

I will admit that riding a motorcycle on the street is not like it was maybe 15 years ago. The people of today drive with more distractions than ever. The worst being a cell phone of course. There have been times when riding I see a car waiting to come into my lane from a side street. The driver will appear to look right at me and yet still turn out causing me to brake to keep from hitting them. Do not get me going on the lane changers. I never ride in the blind spot. Loud exhausts, reflective riding gear and others do no good. Be defensive. Treat all drivers as a hazard. Never ride in the blind spot. Which part of the lane should you stay in? As far as I am concerned each one has its downfall. If I am on a single lane road coming to a light I will tend to hang to the right to keep the car behind me from pulling alongside to do a right turn. Yes this happens a lot right! LOL! Makes me so mad.

But riding under these conditions does not seem to be relaxing anymore. I will never stop riding on the street but tend to get off the beaten track as fast as possible to less traveled roads. Seems to be more relaxing.

But what I have found to enjoy more? Trail riding. My prefered ride is to hit the dirt roads, fire trails or anything that is not paved. It is way more relaxing and enjoyable for me. This is not the type of road the CB1100 can handle but my enduros can.

As with other topics like "How long will you keep your CB1100" or "How long will you ride" I am sure I will be riding trails and backroads way after I am done with the streets.

I have had 2 accidents in my life. One I was young and stupid following a car to close. I should not have been there. They braked quickly to avoid an accident and I could not avoid them. Hit the car and went over the top Superman style. Not a good day for me. Broke bones that day but got right back on the moment I was able. Next I was not paying attention to the surroundings. Made a turn on a sunny day and the road was covered in standing water from a fountain at that corner. The wind was so strong it blew the water into the road. Tires lost traction and I went down. Just a bruised ego on that one. The bike suffered way worse. Again a simple case of not paying attention. After those accidents many years ago my, riding techniques have changed. Those changes have saved me numerous times and will continue to long into the future.

 

[GoldOxide_imp]

I will admit that riding a motorcycle on the street is not like it was maybe 15 years ago. The people of today drive with more distractions than ever. The worst being a cell phone of course. There have been times when riding I see a car waiting to come into my lane from a side street. The driver will appear to look right at me and yet still turn out causing me to brake to keep from hitting them. Do not get me going on the lane changers. I never ride in the blind spot. Loud exhausts, reflective riding gear and others do no good. Be defensive. Treat all drivers as a hazard. Never ride in the blind spot. Which part of the lane should you stay in? As far as I am concerned each one has its downfall. If I am on a single lane road coming to a light I will tend to hang to the right to keep the car behind me from pulling alongside to do a right turn. Yes this happens a lot right! LOL! Makes me so mad.

But riding under these conditions does not seem to be relaxing anymore. I will never stop riding on the street but tend to get off the beaten track as fast as possible to less traveled roads. Seems to be more relaxing.

But what I have found to enjoy more? Trail riding. My prefered ride is to hit the dirt roads, fire trails or anything that is not paved. It is way more relaxing and enjoyable for me. This is not the type of road the CB1100 can handle but my enduros can.

As with other topics like "How long will you keep your CB1100" or "How long will you ride" I am sure I will be riding trails and backroads way after I am done with the streets.

I have had 2 accidents in my life. One I was young and stupid following a car to close. I should not have been there. They braked quickly to avoid an accident and I could not avoid them. Hit the car and went over the top Superman style. Not a good day for me. Broke bones that day but got right back on the moment I was able. Next I was not paying attention to the surroundings. Made a turn on a sunny day and the road was covered in standing water from a fountain at that corner. The wind was so strong it blew the water into the road. Tires lost traction and I went down. Just a bruised ego on that one. The bike suffered way worse. Again a simple case of not paying attention. After those accidents many years ago my, riding techniques have changed. Those changes have saved me numerous times and will continue to long into the future.

RE off road: Yeah, riding for miles upon miles standing up sometimes feels sooooo liberating. Even on roads surfaces - sometimes forget that I am standing. In any case, you see so much!

 

[teamvisegrip_imp]

OK GoldOxide... yeah no standing for me. Just sitting in the seat slowly motoring along enjoying the view. I will stand a little if the legs get stiff. Just feels weird for me to ride like that. LOL! Maybe the vintage XL600 is not made for standing. Or better yet the vintage body is not made for that.

I went on a group ride with a bunch of people. They all take off hell bent on getting somewhere. Some were standing others just hanging on trying to keep up. Me I just motored along enjoying the view and had a ball on my own. At night the conversation turned to my riding habits. I just answered I am here enjoying the view not trying to beat everyone. I put on 500 very enjoyable miles that long weekend of riding from sun up to sun down. Great views and excellent pictures.

I had the time of my life!

 

[Olof_imp]

I think I understand what the OP is getting at. At 55 i qualify for answering and I say yes whith one exception. As alreadys said, defensive riding is key.

I am fortunate to ride in Sweden where traffic has increased steadily since I got my license (early 80s) but it's still relatively sparse. This allows me to manouver in traffic and maintain an "exit strategy" for the unexpected, i.e. not having to rely on others' skills and judgement. It's all about imagination and prediction, not about riding slowly (I overtake more than I'm overtaken). So yes, as a rule I feel I can avoid getting hurt.

However, there is one exception - multi-lane traffic around Stockholm (the capital) 24/7 and sometimes also around handful of other main cities in Sweden. Here it's impossible to keep sane distances as drivers (and riders) tailgate, swerve in front, overtake on the inside, refuse to use their indicators or adjust their speed to others. The end result is complex, dynamic and scary. I've ridden in London, Paris and Rome but Stockholm is the worst I've ridden. So I stay away, even though I have the RLETs to protect me.

 

[zirconxi_imp]

I would say take all precaution there is to be taken, before ride remind self to be safe, but still, I believe the most dangerous factor being self. Once on the road, when the adrenaline took over, the right hand start to twist unlogically. Soon peg feeler start grinding and tyre side strip start fading. On most of my ride, its safe for the 1st 15 minutes. After that, ain't see any speed limit signboard anymore.

 

[Cormanus]

I think it's a really interesting question, j3gq, particularly as I had an accident in February this year. My previous accidents were nearly 50 years ago. The first was entirely my own fault. I wasn't paying attention to the traffic and a car stopped in front of me. I ran into it at low speed. Nothing much hurt but by pride and the front mudguard (fender). The second was entirely someone else's fault. On a one-way street, a driver turned right from the left lane across the right lane in which I was travelling. He hit me, damaging the bike and my leg. I learned to try to be more aware of the traffic around me and to work on the driver's 6th sense that alerts you when someone is going to do something idiotic.

My last accident was in the country earlier this year. It was raining lightly and had been raining on and off for a few days. I turned under a railway bridge into a depression filled with mud and the bike slid out from underneath me. I'm not sure that I could or would have done anything differently. I don't recall whether I realised it was mud until I was in it and the bike started sliding. I was travelling at a safe speed for the conditions. Maybe, if there's another time, I'll try to stop and the proceed very gingerly, but, on this occasion, there were cars close behind me and it may not have been possible to stop safely.

As for traffic, I'm forced to ride in it to escape it, but I rarely enjoy it much and exercise as much care as I can to stay both aware and safe. I try to avoid getting too close to cars, or sitting in the blind spot, or allowing them to get too close to me, but in stop-start, multi-lane traffic it is often hard to control all those things.

 

[alprider]

in relation to other road users.
.
.drive like you're invisible
.
.
.
bcos
Self-accidents are something else.....

 

[Cormanus]

Excellent advice alprider.

 

[j3gq_imp]

I would say take all precaution there is to be taken, before ride remind self to be safe, but still, I believe the most dangerous factor being self. Once on the road, when the adrenaline took over, the right hand start to twist unlogically. Soon peg feeler start grinding and tyre side strip start fading. On most of my ride, its safe for the 1st 15 minutes. After that, ain't see any speed limit signboard anymore.

Thank you for this input. Of course this plays a role in many of us, and only age calms it a little (in some cases But here is an interesting point in statistics. Where I live, about 25% of all accidents happen in the first 3 minutes after departure. Interesting, no ?

 

[Guth_imp]

On motorcycles, I had 2 minor accidents in a row, at about age 20 or 22. Next a very close call. Stopped riding for a while, and started again a few years later. Since then, no more wracks, but of course quite a few close calls. Must be now some 35 years without getting hurt and nothing bent. I wish I could say look at this, but unfortunately I have to admit, I've just been lucky a few times. Now, here is the question I ask myself:

In today's traffic (density), not in Utah! ...
given the velocity of traffic,
with the number of trucks around
(and S.U.V.s the size of trucks),
... can an average biker, age 60 +/-10, defensive driver/rider, following the written rules and common sense ... still avoid getting hurt in 2020/21 ?

More precisely, in case you had an accident lately - in retrospect - what was the main cause and could you have avoided that accident and how (other than by staying at home ?

Just as it has always been, the only way to guarantee that you won't get hurt riding a motorcycle is to avoid riding a motorcycle altogether. I do believe that the risks involved with riding a motorcycle are increasing as time marches on. It should be noted that while the level of risk has increased in part due to the factors that you've mentioned, this is offset some small amount by the fact that motorcycles themselves have improved over the years. Whenever such conversations arise I end up pondering this: at what cost comes a life where risk is minimized as much as possible?

This was a tough week for me as I learned that a friend of mine lost his life just a few days ago. He was young — still in his 40's. Yet he had lived an interesting life, one that he enjoyed. I loved listening to the many tales that he had to tell as a result of the experiences life had provided him with. That life ended with him dying in his sleep.

j3gq, I do hope that you come up with an answer to your question that you can live with. The bottom line is that there are few guarantees in life and life itself is not guaranteed. While life is not a one-size-fits-all endeavor, the end result is always the same. I'm reminded of a song by Kevin Welch that includes the following lyrics:

There's gonna be two dates on your tombstone, all your friends will read 'em
But, all that's gonna matter is that little dash between 'em

I would say take all precaution there is to be taken, before ride remind self to be safe, but still, I believe the most dangerous factor being self. Once on the road, when the adrenaline took over, the right hand start to twist unlogically. Soon peg feeler start grinding and tyre side strip start fading. On most of my ride, its safe for the 1st 15 minutes. After that, ain't see any speed limit signboard anymore.

Thank you for this input. Of course this plays a role in many of us, and only age calms it a little (in some cases But here is an interesting point in statistics. Where I live, about 25% of all accidents happen in the first 3 minutes after departure. Interesting, no ?

That's really interesting. I've read similar statistics but the factor mentioned is always distance rather than time with most accidents occurring within just a few miles of home.

 

[j3gq_imp]

@Guth
Thanks ! In fact I can live with any answer, as I belong to that older generation that has always tried to balance risks rather than avoid them. And so I keep riding, hiking, flying and all the rest. My question wasn't aimed at finding an excuse for selling my BC, for giving up. I had sth else in mind.

The FAA, or rather the NTSB, has had a program for decades where accident scenarios and conditions are published to other pilots to learn. And AOPA has a column called "never again", where pilots look back at what went wrong and why. The earlier is unthinkable for motorcycle, the later could start right here cause we can all learn from the lucky days of others when they "got away". My hope was my OP could make people think about these situations and communicate their unique inside after all the pain and hardship is gone.

 

[zirconxi_imp]

I would say take all precaution there is to be taken, before ride remind self to be safe, but still, I believe the most dangerous factor being self. Once on the road, when the adrenaline took over, the right hand start to twist unlogically. Soon peg feeler start grinding and tyre side strip start fading. On most of my ride, its safe for the 1st 15 minutes. After that, ain't see any speed limit signboard anymore.

Thank you for this input. Of course this plays a role in many of us, and only age calms it a little (in some cases But here is an interesting point in statistics. Where I live, about 25% of all accidents happen in the first 3 minutes after departure. Interesting, no ?

Interesting point on this statistic.. Possibly 25% accident from the 1st 3 minutes is either where most riders beginning to adjust into riding mode, or rider riding out of populated housing area where traffics are more chaotic. The balance 75% possibly is where adrenaline start to kick in and high speed are involved. But just my assumptions.
As age catching up, so are the rider fatigue, both mentally and physically. But there are another saying on old riders, once you start reduce riding, your reflexes and mental sharpness deteriorate faster, thus higher chance of accident. But then the more you ride, the higher chances of getting into accident due statistically.. kind of a paradox, ride more = sharper fitter and less chance into accident, but stay on road more = more chance of accident.

 

[PhangNga_imp]

For me I have been riding for about 15 years. And I have a major accident once and broke my right collarbone into 3 parts. I have to say I'm quite defensive in riding especially in Bangkok's street. You can not trust that everyone on the road will respect and obey rules(if we have any). Until one day in the morning when I was riding to work and splitting lanes in heavy traffics in Bangkok rush hour and doing about 40-50km/hr. One scooter decided to cut the 5 lanes road from the most right to the most left "in front of a van." My luck was running out that day, It's impossible for me to see him because the van is blocking my vision. I crashed into him. Luckily enough not to be ran over by traffics because it was a green light. He was mad at me and accused my for being reckless. I didn't reply and let's the insurance handle everything else.

This experience teaches me that no matter how much I careful, there will be one day I will cross paths with... bad luck?

I attached a picture so you get the idea of splitting lanes here is what like. I talking about splitting a 5kms of bumper to bumper traffic. Sometimes i think it's like playing a Russian Roulette every day.

Ride safe.

 

[max]

Nice to hear about you guys in this heavy chaotic ( to me ) traffic and surviving, started riding in Amsterdam without any issues but used to the riding situation there.
Watched some video's on driving in India and i don't even understand how they survive but they do so there is still a chance for us .
Here in Auckland there are several different area's that require an adaptive approach, some drive naturally slow but with clear direction, in another part with a different population ( in my area ) drivers are completely unpredictable with no regard for motorcycles, they think we are mopeds and try to push in on me as where in the rest of the city things are quite predictable.
Also use the mirrors constantly, when i need to alter course i practice " situational awareness" knowing what's behind me at what speed on all lanes so i have a clear area in which to move, if it's not safe i take the next safe opportunity.

When crossing or turning into a road i expect there to be traffic that comes toward me and when the road is clear that's a bonus, but i don't rely on the road to be clear, i have to prove that to myself.

First thing i do after touching the brakes is look in the mirrors to make sure behind me are slowing down as well and if need be keep going in the right gear, a traffic fine is a better option than a hospital stay etc.

So i guess it's a case of adaptation to the perceived situation based upon experience, and yes, i also notice i get slower so i have to pay more attention instead.

Also have never mixed alcohol when riding on the bike period, but in early days i had a heightened sense of awareness when driving with a very moderate amount of alcohol in the car and never had a problem because of that.

It may seem a bit much and overdone but i find i got used to being cautious and it's second nature after a while.

Nice talking point with interesting idea's.

 

[j3gq_imp]

I would say take all precaution there is to be taken, before ride remind self to be safe, but still, I believe the most dangerous factor being self. Once on the road, when the adrenaline took over, the right hand start to twist unlogically. Soon peg feeler start grinding and tyre side strip start fading. On most of my ride, its safe for the 1st 15 minutes. After that, ain't see any speed limit signboard anymore.

Thank you for this input. Of course this plays a role in many of us, and only age calms it a little (in some cases But here is an interesting point in statistics. Where I live, about 25% of all accidents happen in the first 3 minutes after departure. Interesting, no ?

Interesting point on this statistic.. Possibly 25% accident from the 1st 3 minutes is either where most riders beginning to adjust into riding mode, or rider riding out of populated housing area where traffics are more chaotic. The balance 75% possibly is where adrenaline start to kick in and high speed are involved. But just my assumptions.
As age catching up, so are the rider fatigue, both mentally and physically. But there are another saying on old riders, once you start reduce riding, your reflexes and mental sharpness deteriorate faster, thus higher chance of accident. But then the more you ride, the higher chances of getting into accident due statistically.. kind of a paradox, ride more = sharper fitter and less chance into accident, but stay on road more = more chance of accident.

... But there are another saying on old riders, once you start reduce riding, your reflexes and mental sharpness deteriorate faster, thus higher chance of accident. ...
This is definitely correct. There is a growing body of evidence that to keep fit at advanced age (over 30 or so) your brain needs most what it was built for, being hauled around in three dimensions with sensors (eyes, earsproviding max input at max data-rate. Hikers report the same effect. Geriatrists confirm. But there is no paradox. If you hike and don't ride, your brain stays as healthy. Yet it stays healthy with different capacity. Only hiking from 60 on, and getting back on the blade at age 75 won't do the trick :banana:

 

[Houtman_imp]

The reason that most accidents are close to home is very simple : never mind how long or far you ride : there are ALWAYS the first miles/ten minutes when you leave home.

 

[GoldOxide_imp]

If I had to split urban Bangkok cages everyday, I think I'd be riding a scooter too (sans the mirrors).