ABS vs Not

[LiveToRide_imp]

I'm purchasing this week and I was going to get the Non ABS as it was all they had but another dealer just let me know that have an ABS model. I like the idea of ABS since my lightning quick reflexes are now only thunder quick and I'm thinking the ABS could make up the difference. Anyone out there have an opinion on the differences? Do they up the maintenance cost or are they problematic in any way??

 

[Buffalohead_imp]

I'm purchasing this week and I was going to get the Non ABS as it was all they had but another dealer just let me know that have an ABS model. I like the idea of ABS since my lightning quick reflexes are now only thunder quick and I'm thinking the ABS could make up the difference. Anyone out there have an opinion on the differences? Do they up the maintenance cost or are they problematic in any way??

I know Honda's are infinitely more reliable than BMW's but after the problems with the ABS my friends and I have had, there is no way I would take a chance on another ABS. That's just me. Years down the road when Honda's ABS has proven reliable, I may try one. Until then, I won't do it. I haven't checked the price of Honda's brake parts but BMW had one ABS pump that cost $2400! I just don't think Honda's ABS has been around long enough to make a judgment. JMHO

 

[thumper_imp]

I'll provide a counter-point to Buffalohead's comments.

My 7 yr-old ST1300 was my first bike to have ABS, and the system has been transparent. There are hundreds of ST11 and ST13 owners on the Home website, and I don't recall ABS problems being an issue with the model. Needless to say, I can't give an opinion or perspective on other motorcycle brands or models that have ABS. The first day I had the bike, I rode onto one of my favorite mountain roads, got up to about 80mph, said, "here goes nothing!" and grabbed and stomped the brakes for all they were worth. The bike brought me to a very sudden, but very controlled stop. That made me a believer.

My VFR1200F has Combined ABS, and I also wanted it on my CB11. I believe that ABS will continue to proliferate the market, and BMW has already pioneered putting it on all of their motorcycles. I have pretty good braking skill and put that skill to work on the racetrack. But on the street, I know that if caught off-guard, on a marginal surface, the computer can do a better job than can I.

I've driven police cars without ABS, and with ABS...at very, very high speeds. I came very close to killing myself (and my K-9) one night while responding to a felony pursuit, driving a non-ABS car. ABS for me thank you.

 

[SUPERCRUZ_imp]

The CB1100 has been on the market since 2010 in Japan and Australia. Not exactly sure when the ABS option emerged but think it was 2011. I believe I read it is mandatory on all the UK bikes. I have not read any negative posts about the Honda ABS system. My Triumph Bonneville was a non ABS bike. One of the reasons I sold my Bonneville and bought the CB was for the ABS system option. One of the things they teach you in the MSF Basic Rider Course is progressive braking. Kudos to those who can progressive brake in a panic situation but I simply want the piece of mind of having ABS just in case. Having had a few panic stops in my cars over the years, I am always thankful when I do have ABS. No different on the bike. You get on the brakes hard in a panic situation on a bike and the brakes are going to lock up resulting in a skid or longer braking distances. For me, the extra money for the ABS is just an added insurance policy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrRMIWqGz...4g&index=3

 

[Buffalohead_imp]

I'll provide a counter-point to Buffalohead's comments.

My 7 yr-old ST1300 was my first bike to have ABS, and the system has been transparent. There are hundreds of ST11 and ST13 owners on the Home website, and I don't recall ABS problems being an issue with the model. Needless to say, I can't give an opinion or perspective on other motorcycle brands or models that have ABS. The first day I had the bike, I rode onto one of my favorite mountain roads, got up to about 80mph, said, "here goes nothing!" and grabbed and stomped the brakes for all they were worth. The bike brought me to a very sudden, but very controlled stop. That made me a believer.

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I know ABS is great when it works. But, when it fails, you can be in big trouble and it is very costly to repair because of it's complexity. In cars, I'm sure it's not as big of a deal when it fails because your not on two wheels. In fact, in a car I would prefer ABS. My best friend nearly lost his life when his failed on his BMW. A new brake pump for my bike cost $2400. That's absurd IMO. If Honda's ABS turns out not to be problematic like the BMW's we have owned, I will buy one some day. I'm am glad to hear yours have been trouble free. FWIW.

 

[emptysea]

If you can afford the ABS system, get it. I could not, so I opted for the non-ABS. I have read and re-read dozens of posts about Honda's ABS systems on this and other bikes and do not recall a single person having reliability problems. Some argue that ABS allows the rider to forget good riding technique, but that's a BS argument--riders simply do not suddenly forget how to avoid situations because they have ABS any more than they remember them because they don't. That said, it is an expensive alternative so choose it if it fits your budget and your mindset

 

[oldyaler_imp]

I'm purchasing this week and I was going to get the Non ABS as it was all they had but another dealer just let me know that have an ABS model. I like the idea of ABS since my lightning quick reflexes are now only thunder quick and I'm thinking the ABS could make up the difference. Anyone out there have an opinion on the differences? Do they up the maintenance cost or are they problematic in any way??

I know Honda's are infinitely more reliable than BMW's but after the problems with the ABS my friends and I have had, there is no way I would take a chance on another ABS. That's just me. Years down the road when Honda's ABS has proven reliable, I may try one. Until then, I won't do it. I haven't checked the price of Honda's brake parts but BMW had one ABS pump that cost $2400! I just don't think Honda's ABS has been around long enough to make a judgment. JMHO

I know Honda's are infinitely more reliable than BMW's but after the problems with the ABS my friends and I have had, there is no way I would take a chance on another ABS. That's just me. Years down the road when Honda's ABS has proven reliable, I may try one. Until then, I won't do it. I haven't checked the price of Honda's brake parts but BMW had one ABS pump that cost $2400! I just don't think Honda's ABS has been around long enough to make a judgment. JMHO According to http://hondapartshouse.com it looks like the most expensive part is the ABS modulator @ $1102.30

 

[cb400four_imp]

I had a very strong preference for the ABS option, for several reasons. First, Honda has had over 20 years of experience with ABS and larger bikes, starting with the ST1100 in 1992, so the ABS system should be comparatively mature and reliable (though mechanical / electrical system is perfect in all situations, hypothetical or real). Second, all reviews on the subject that I have read expressly conclude that the most experienced and accomplished riders at the very top of their form can stop faster without ABS, and riders who are comparatively less capable can stop faster with ABS -- and now that I'm older and I spend less time familiarizing myself with the limits of my motorcycle's performance as compared to when I was younger I would say that ABS is a good tradeoff for me at this time but I might opt against ABS if I were in my 20s again. Third, I am fortunate that the extra cost of ABS did not outweigh the benefits (in my mind), and the extra weight due to the ABS subsystems would not be perceptible given my style of riding.

 

[Buffalohead_imp]

[/QUOTE]According to http://hondapartshouse.com it looks like the most expensive part is the ABS modulator @ $1102.30
[/QUOTE]

***************************************************

That's somewhat comforting. Less than half the cost of BMW's pump.

I didn't say ABS always fails. The things I said about our BMW's ABS on our bikes are just facts. It happened. The cost of the parts are true also. If you don't want to believe it, don't.

My opinion is, I do expect Honda's ABS to be better than BMW's. When it proves out, I may buy one some day. After the trouble we've had, reliability is a priority.

 

[oldyaler_imp]

I had a very strong preference for the ABS option, for several reasons. First, Honda has had over 20 years of experience with ABS and larger bikes, starting with the ST1100 in 1992, so the ABS system should be comparatively mature and reliable (though mechanical / electrical system is perfect in all situations, hypothetical or real). Second, all reviews on the subject that I have read expressly conclude that the most experienced and accomplished riders at the very top of their form can stop faster without ABS, and riders who are comparatively less capable can stop faster with ABS -- and now that I'm older and I spend less time familiarizing myself with the limits of my motorcycle's performance as compared to when I was younger I would say that ABS is a good tradeoff for me at this time but I might opt against ABS if I were in my 20s again. Third, I am fortunate that the extra cost of ABS did not outweigh the benefits (in my mind), and the extra weight due to the ABS subsystems would not be perceptible given my style of riding.

+1. The older I get the more inclined I am to get a bike with ABS.

 

[ChipBeck_imp]

My dealer had both versions and the cost of ABS was not a factor. Still, I decided to purchase a non-ABS CB11. I can't tell you why other than I've never owned an ABS bike. I'm not anti ABS however and soon I'll be buying a new CBR250R for my son and I will insist on ABS for his bike. Go figure???

Chip

 

[Guth_imp]

LiveToRide, I was in the exact same boat as you and ended up with the non-ABS machine. After I bought my bike, I got an earful from the service guys and it turns out that not everyone at Honda is a fan of the Combined ABS system. The gist of discussion primarily had to do with how Honda decided to implement the "combined braking" portion of the system on each model of bike. For example, the Combined ABS on the big CBRs (I'm not sure about the CBR250) works much differently than the Combined ABS on say the touring bikes. Apparently the combined braking system is far less invasive in response to the riders inputs on the CBRs as compared to the touring bikes. The implementation of the ABS on the CBRs sounds pretty neat to me, but not so much on the touring bikes.

So, the question in my mind is just how did Honda implement the combined braking system on the CB1100? A better overall question might be: has anyone here engaged the ABS on their CB1100 in situations where they weren't simply testing it out on their own and if so, how did it engage and perform? What were the conditions and how did the ABS make a difference?

I still think that overall ABS makes a lot of sense. It is the way of the future. I'm just not sure that I will ever fully trust the technology (I've experienced ABS not working in a car, result = no brakes). I wish that Honda had provided an override switch that would allow the rider to turn the ABS system on or off as they choose as other manufacturers have. I'm guessing that at some point down the road, all new bikes will have ABS. If anyone can ultimately get it right, my money would be on Honda.

 

[LiveToRide_imp]

I'm surprised a failure would leave you without brakes. I would think just the ABS part would stop working but the brakes would still work.

 

[Guth_imp]

Keep in mind that this was over a decade ago and this was in a car. I was driving in a downpour and was turning on to a cloverleaf onramp heading downhill. While the brakes did not work (there was absolutely nothing there), the Quattro all wheel drive did (the car was an Audi A4) and the car plowed through the corner, but I was not at all happy. Fortunately there were no other cars directly in front of me. Apparently the conditions were such the they negated the brake pedal all together. The braking did return after I entered the highway.

I ended up doing quite a bit of research and found out that others had also experienced similar situations and that Audi had issued some special shields of some sort (unannounced of course). When I went to my dealer, they had no idea what I was talking about, but when I provided them with the part numbers I found, they pulled up in their system, so they ordered them for me. They installed the shields, and I've had no problems since then. But the whole thing did leave me a bit skeptical advances in technology when it comes to drive and braking systems.

Even after that, I was willing to take a chance on Honda's ABS when it came to the CB1100. As I pointed out in my post, any complaints that I've heard when it comes to Honda's braking systems have had to to with the combined portion of the braking system and not the ABS itself. In fact, Honda even uses ABS on their endurance racing bikes, so they are putting their money where their mouth is when it comes to ABS.

 

[OldF7Guy_imp]

I was under the impression the ABS on the CB11 was the linked systems like on the bigger bikes. Ferret I believe said there have been issues with the ST1300s and it was pretty much a complicated system. Or at least that is how I took it. I like the idea of it but always leary of making something more complicated.

My dealer had both versions and the cost of ABS was not a factor. Still, I decided to purchase a non-ABS CB11. I can't tell you why other than I've never owned an ABS bike. I'm not anti ABS however and soon I'll be buying a new CBR250R for my son and I will insist on ABS for his bike. Go figure???

Chip

I can certainly understand that. There is just something funny about putting your faith in ABS on 2 wheels when you have never ridden one. I have not either and it just makes me a little leary when at the same time I have a lot of confidence in Honda.

 

[ChipBeck_imp]

I was under the impression the ABS on the CB11 was the linked systems like on the bigger bikes. Ferret I believe said there have been issues with the ST1300s and it was pretty much a complicated system. Or at least that is how I took it. I like the idea of it but always leary of making something more complicated.

My dealer had both versions and the cost of ABS was not a factor. Still, I decided to purchase a non-ABS CB11. I can't tell you why other than I've never owned an ABS bike. I'm not anti ABS however and soon I'll be buying a new CBR250R for my son and I will insist on ABS for his bike. Go figure???

Chip

I can certainly understand that. There is just something funny about putting your faith in ABS on 2 wheels when you have never ridden one. I have not either and it just makes me a little leary when at the same time I have a lot of confidence in Honda.

Yes, the ABS offered on the CB11 is a linked system. If you apply the rear brake the system also applies some front brake as well. It isn't possible to apply just rear braking which is probably a good thing. The front brake does not apply rear braking however. One of the magazine tests said that some brake feel is lost with the ABS but that it worked as advertised. It would be interesting to ride both versions back to back to see if you could feel the difference. What I do know is that I love the feel, light lever pressure, and massive stopping power of my non-ABS brakes and I acknowledge I've never ridden an ABS CB to compare it to. Cheers.

Chip

 

[the Ferret]

Chip not entirely true, but close. my ST 1300 has the LBSII system by Honda and it sucks. Many ST and Goldwing owners have had issues with theirs and Honda issued a recall on the Goldwings. No such luck on the STs yet though. Because of this I specifically wanted the simpler non ABS unit CB.

The CB however appears to have the simpler LBS system which acts as you described.


A combined braking system (CBS), also called linked braking system (LBS), is a system for linking front and rear brakes on a motorcycle or scooter.[1] In this system, the rider's action of depressing one of the brake levers applies both front and rear brakes. The amount of each brake applied may be determined by a proportional control valve.

BMW Motorrad uses a system called Integral ABS, in which the front brake lever operates both the front and rear brakes, while the brake pedal operates only the rear brake.


In the inverse, Honda's system that features both combined brakes and Anti-lock brakes is dubbed Combined ABS. In this system, it is the rear brake pedal that operates both front and rear brake, where the front brake lever operates only the front calipers.

Honda made several variations of the LBS system with differing levels of complexity and integration. The CBR1100XX featured what Honda called LBS II, a system where both levers would activate both brakes through a system of secondary pistons and proportioning/delay valves. One front brake caliper was connected to a secondary master cylinder, and the caliper was allowed to rotate slightly to apply pressure to the piston in that secondary master cylinder. Braking force was translated into pressure that was sent to the rear brake cylinder. Only the two outer pistons in the front brake calipers were directly activated by the brake lever; the center piston received pressure from the rear pedal via the proprtioning valve

 

[Buffalohead_imp]

I'm surprised a failure would leave you without brakes. I would think just the ABS part would stop working but the brakes would still work.

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When my friend's ABS failed, first it locked up (and almost killed him), then after that he had no brakes at all. Then, after $2400 (part only) he had the same unreliable system back again. But, that was a BMW, not a Honda.
Hey LiveToRide, I'll bet you never thought you'd get something like this started!
So, have you arrived at a decision yet?

 

[terrydlargo_imp]

Most of think we are better riders than we really are. ABS has worked in my favor twice, and never let me down. So its ABS for me always.

 

[meowguy_imp]

Most of think we are better riders than we really are. ABS has worked in my favor twice, and never let me down. So its ABS for me always.

Me too. Would not buy a bike without it, now that you have quite a choice of ABS bikes to choose from. Triumph, BMW, Suzuki, Honda, HD. The CB11 was the only one I could find with ABS that was a standard format ride. That's why I jumped for it.