ABS: Just Sayin' (Actually, Suzuki says...)

[Retsel_imp]

So, is ABS good or bad for motorcycling? 😈 sorry, just couldn't pass up the chance to keep this wonderful post going!

Sent from my XT1096 using Tapatalk

 

[Cormanus]

Heaven knows, Retsel. Like oil, it is surely important to the survival of motorcycle forums.

 

[Motogeezer1949_imp]

ABS will save ones a$$ in a panic stop. Without, it's easy to lock up the front wheel and go down immediately. i've been very happy to have it on the CB and the XSR.

 

[the Ferret]

So, is ABS good or bad for motorcycling? 😈 sorry, just couldn't pass up the chance to keep this wonderful post going!

Sent from my XT1096 using Tapatalk

YES ... Or is it NO? I'm confused

 

[Retsel_imp]

So, is ABS good or bad for motorcycling? 😈 sorry, just couldn't pass up the chance to keep this wonderful post going!

Sent from my XT1096 using Tapatalk

YES ... Or is it NO? I'm confused

YES ... Or is it NO? I'm confused Seems we all are!

Sent from my SM-T710 using Tapatalk

 

[Ulvetanna_imp]

Reach for the popcorn, popgun. That's not it. Not for the moment anyway.

First, I'm glad you gentlemen have let off steam with a ride. I haven't had a chance to do that yet.

Secondly, Ulvetanna, my sincere apologies for misrepresenting your position on ABS.

Thirdly, however, in my defence, I note that in all the indignant 10-euro responses you've posted, you never once answered my question—namely, what was your point? To be explicit: why did you make the post in the way you did? Why didn't you include a statement that it was in support of your view that ABS is not the be-all and end-all of braking? A statement with which most of us would, I suspect, agree. Instead it appeared to me—and indeed it continues to appear so—that you 'trailed your coat': offering a statement you knew or hoped would provoke precisely the response it got. If I'm wrong about that, I apologise again, but I'd ask that you accept some responsibility for how your communication was received.

Finally, you say "It just seems to me that, as both of you are moderators, you all could be a bit more moderate and actually either recall my position on ABS (which I've posted several times) or do a quick search to make sure you are not "standing on your foot." (I say this in all good humor)". With equal good humour and with respect as well: it's a fair cop; I did shoot myself in the foot. But, fair go. The Ferret and I read pretty much every post on this forum. My memory is not what it used to be and I don't remember every position put by every member on every issue. I don't have time meticulously to research every statement made by every member on every post. I'm simply not going to. If it's a job requirement, I'm outta here.

You have strong opinions which you express extensively and, if I may say so, with plenty of 10-Euro words. Good for you. You're entitled both to the words and the opinions. Heaven knows, I even respect many of the latter. I certainly respect your right to hold them. I'd ask that you offer reciprocal respect.

Of course...look, all I did was to post verbatim the disclaimer Suzuki put up on its website. I really never thought it would create a series of posts which, to put it politely, attempted to discern MY exact position on ABS.

I just think we've got to get some discussion and education going about all these electronic aids, and what they can and can't do for us, and how they work. There was nothing sinister in my intention, no desire to raise up a dust storm with the moderators weighing in, or anything of that nature.

Another thing I have to say, is that while I was on the ZX-10R forum, many of us raced and did track days, or both, whereas here on this forum, I seem to be the only really active member who has that kind of background. Obviously the CB1100 does not really attract that kind of rider but some few of us really do like the concept. I've mentioned Nick Ienatsch many times; I will go ahead and say I do know him fairly well, have worked with him on occasion, and he and I share a very similar opinion of motorcycling. We love all kinds of bikes, racebikes to standards, vintage to modern. His message is also the same as mine, you can never stop learning and should never get complacent. We just had a new CB1100 owner go down today. If I, or you, or Nick, or anyone can help someone save his bacon with a riding tip or bit of information, to me, that's worth it.

We've got over 3,000 riders viewing this forum and probably less than one percent of those posting regularly, but a lot of them read it. So yes, I use this forum as a way to get out what I know to be good and accurate information about motorcycle riding techniques and technology. There can never be enough of that.

I've always gotten a kick out of the ten-dollar word quote from Hemingway; in truth, I'm an adherent of Herbert Spencer when it comes to writing but I can mix it up when I need to.

 

[Cormanus]

I'm not sure this article in Motorbikewriter.com adds much to the discussion other than that, for some at least, the jury is still out in Australia.

Looks like ABS will be mandated in Europe from April 2017 for bikes 125cc and above.

 

[Ulvetanna_imp]

I'm not sure this article in Motorbikewriter.com adds much to the discussion other than that, for some at least, the jury is still out in Australia.

Looks like ABS will be mandated in Europe from April 2017 for bikes 125cc and above.

That's a great link. My two favorite comments:

ABS or not, proper braking technique will still reduce your stopping distance. Poor technique with ABS will result in a longer stop than good technique with or without ABS.

And until they get it right for unsealed surfaces, of which we have a lot in Oz, its dangerous, increasing stopping distances. My XT1200Z came with unswitchable ABS. After a few rides on gravel roads, and a few steepish fire trails I searched the net for a an off fix which fortunately wasn’t too hard.
I find all this hysteria about ABS being unsafe or not needed to be ridiculous.

ABS does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL until the rider fails and locks up the brakes in an emergency. At that point, it may help to save your life. If you are so truly gifted that you can brake on the limit and not panic when some clown pulls out right in front of you and your life is in danger, just turn the ABS off.

But everything works backwards in Australia, due to the Coriolis effect, no?:beerchug:
I just have to also post this comment; using the rear to get the back end to step and cause a direction change is, naturally, a technique learned in the dirt. I used that on the racetrack once, a guy crashed and fell off right in front of me and I had to kick the back end out a few times to skew my line, barely missed his feet as he was sliding along the pavement. I went onto the track and noted several skid marks from the rear tire after the fact.

Being the Old Grumpy Bastard that I am, I can still however remember the front brakes of many a bike, either totally lethal or barely rated as retarders. One really did learn to ride around the bike, on one such machine the front brakes if you could call them that, needed a gorilla like full hand squeeze, to just achieve a slight slowing, however the rear brake was brilliant, and one very quickly learnt to steer the machine out of trouble by locking up the rear, and taking option 2 escape point in a totally different direction and then get on the gas hard, saved my butt so, many times.

 

[the Ferret]

Here's another vid from MCN using an experienced street rider, a professional motorcycle racer and a full time motorcycle tester

They tested a 1000 Honda with and without ABS on a damp track, straight line panic stop from 70 mph (or may have been KPH I don't know lol).

The motorcycle racer always stopped the quickest in both tests
the professional tester always stopped second quickest in both tests
the experienced street rider always took the longest to stop in both tests

however every rider always stopped in a shorter distance with the ABS equipped bike vs the non ABS equipped bike, (even the professional racer)

ok just broke it down

John street rider 301 ft w/o abs .... 246 ft with abs
Reese pro mc racer 193 ft w/o ABS .... 137 ft with ABS
Bruce pro tester 216 ft w/o ABS .... 200 ft with ABS

 

[rotor]

I'm not sure this article in Motorbikewriter.com adds much to the discussion other than that, for some at least, the jury is still out in Australia.

Looks like ABS will be mandated in Europe from April 2017 for bikes 125cc and above.

That's a great link. My two favorite comments:

ABS or not, proper braking technique will still reduce your stopping distance. Poor technique with ABS will result in a longer stop than good technique with or without ABS.

And until they get it right for unsealed surfaces, of which we have a lot in Oz, its dangerous, increasing stopping distances. My XT1200Z came with unswitchable ABS. After a few rides on gravel roads, and a few steepish fire trails I searched the net for a an off fix which fortunately wasn’t too hard.
I find all this hysteria about ABS being unsafe or not needed to be ridiculous.

ABS does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL until the rider fails and locks up the brakes in an emergency. At that point, it may help to save your life. If you are so truly gifted that you can brake on the limit and not panic when some clown pulls out right in front of you and your life is in danger, just turn the ABS off.

But everything works backwards in Australia, due to the Coriolis effect, no?:beerchug:
I just have to also post this comment; using the rear to get the back end to step and cause a direction change is, naturally, a technique learned in the dirt. I used that on the racetrack once, a guy crashed and fell off right in front of me and I had to kick the back end out a few times to skew my line, barely missed his feet as he was sliding along the pavement. I went onto the track and noted several skid marks from the rear tire after the fact.

Being the Old Grumpy Bastard that I am, I can still however remember the front brakes of many a bike, either totally lethal or barely rated as retarders. One really did learn to ride around the bike, on one such machine the front brakes if you could call them that, needed a gorilla like full hand squeeze, to just achieve a slight slowing, however the rear brake was brilliant, and one very quickly learnt to steer the machine out of trouble by locking up the rear, and taking option 2 escape point in a totally different direction and then get on the gas hard, saved my butt so, many times.

I don't thing that's correct.

ABS adds weight and cost to the new motorcycle, it is another complex automation system that ads many possible failure points to the braking system, it demands ongoing maintenance and it gives inexperienced riders a false sense of security.

It is a matter of cost vs. benefit ratio. I see too few benefits to justify the cost; someone else might well thing the benefits out weight the costs. The balance point between the cost and the benefit is a legitimate thing to discuss, but to claim there is no cost AT ALL is not a reasonable position.

 

[Ulvetanna_imp]

I'm not sure this article in Motorbikewriter.com adds much to the discussion other than that, for some at least, the jury is still out in Australia.

Looks like ABS will be mandated in Europe from April 2017 for bikes 125cc and above.

That's a great link. My two favorite comments:

ABS or not, proper braking technique will still reduce your stopping distance. Poor technique with ABS will result in a longer stop than good technique with or without ABS.

And until they get it right for unsealed surfaces, of which we have a lot in Oz, its dangerous, increasing stopping distances. My XT1200Z came with unswitchable ABS. After a few rides on gravel roads, and a few steepish fire trails I searched the net for a an off fix which fortunately wasn’t too hard.
I find all this hysteria about ABS being unsafe or not needed to be ridiculous.

ABS does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL until the rider fails and locks up the brakes in an emergency. At that point, it may help to save your life. If you are so truly gifted that you can brake on the limit and not panic when some clown pulls out right in front of you and your life is in danger, just turn the ABS off.

But everything works backwards in Australia, due to the Coriolis effect, no?:beerchug:
I just have to also post this comment; using the rear to get the back end to step and cause a direction change is, naturally, a technique learned in the dirt. I used that on the racetrack once, a guy crashed and fell off right in front of me and I had to kick the back end out a few times to skew my line, barely missed his feet as he was sliding along the pavement. I went onto the track and noted several skid marks from the rear tire after the fact.

Being the Old Grumpy Bastard that I am, I can still however remember the front brakes of many a bike, either totally lethal or barely rated as retarders. One really did learn to ride around the bike, on one such machine the front brakes if you could call them that, needed a gorilla like full hand squeeze, to just achieve a slight slowing, however the rear brake was brilliant, and one very quickly learnt to steer the machine out of trouble by locking up the rear, and taking option 2 escape point in a totally different direction and then get on the gas hard, saved my butt so, many times.

I don't thing that's correct.

ABS adds weight and cost to the new motorcycle, it is another complex automation system that ads many possible failure points to the braking system, it demands ongoing maintenance and it gives inexperienced riders a false sense of security.

It is a matter of cost vs. benefit ratio. I see too few benefits to justify the cost; someone else might well thing the benefits out weight the costs. The balance point between the cost and the benefit is a legitimate thing to discuss, but to claim there is no cost AT ALL is not a reasonable position.

I don't thing that's correct.

ABS adds weight and cost to the new motorcycle, it is another complex automation system that ads many possible failure points to the braking system, it demands ongoing maintenance and it gives inexperienced riders a false sense of security.

It is a matter of cost vs. benefit ratio. I see too few benefits to justify the cost; someone else might well thing the benefits out weight the costs. The balance point between the cost and the benefit is a legitimate thing to discuss, but to claim there is no cost AT ALL is not a reasonable position. Just to be clear, the comments in italics were copied and pasted from the website Cormanus linked in his post above.

But in general, with respect to the operation of ABS, the comment is wrong for some systems. The very good systems on some motorcycles, like [url=http://www.moto123.com/motorcycle-news/article,c-abs-hondas-electronic-braking-system.spy?artid=106055]Honda's C-ABS and [url=https://www.kawasaki-cp.khi.co.jp/technology/chassis/tech_kibs_e.html]Kawasaki's KIBS modulate pressure and select the ideal maximum, based on programming. They're still not as good on dry pavement as a very good rider but not like the "light switch" on most basic ABS systems.

But they do add more complexity; I've got to bleed my BMW's brakes and to do that I need a special tool that allows access to the ABS module, so it can be cycled to flush the old fluid. That tool was 350 bucks, but it'll come in handy for other things, so not a complete waste of dough.

Yes, I do turn off the ABS on the BMW unless it's raining or wet out.

 

[the Ferret]

I'm not sure this article in Motorbikewriter.com adds much to the discussion other than that, for some at least, the jury is still out in Australia.

Looks like ABS will be mandated in Europe from April 2017 for bikes 125cc and above.

That's a great link. My two favorite comments:

ABS or not, proper braking technique will still reduce your stopping distance. Poor technique with ABS will result in a longer stop than good technique with or without ABS.

And until they get it right for unsealed surfaces, of which we have a lot in Oz, its dangerous, increasing stopping distances. My XT1200Z came with unswitchable ABS. After a few rides on gravel roads, and a few steepish fire trails I searched the net for a an off fix which fortunately wasn’t too hard.
I find all this hysteria about ABS being unsafe or not needed to be ridiculous.

ABS does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL until the rider fails and locks up the brakes in an emergency. At that point, it may help to save your life. If you are so truly gifted that you can brake on the limit and not panic when some clown pulls out right in front of you and your life is in danger, just turn the ABS off.

But everything works backwards in Australia, due to the Coriolis effect, no?:beerchug:
I just have to also post this comment; using the rear to get the back end to step and cause a direction change is, naturally, a technique learned in the dirt. I used that on the racetrack once, a guy crashed and fell off right in front of me and I had to kick the back end out a few times to skew my line, barely missed his feet as he was sliding along the pavement. I went onto the track and noted several skid marks from the rear tire after the fact.

Being the Old Grumpy Bastard that I am, I can still however remember the front brakes of many a bike, either totally lethal or barely rated as retarders. One really did learn to ride around the bike, on one such machine the front brakes if you could call them that, needed a gorilla like full hand squeeze, to just achieve a slight slowing, however the rear brake was brilliant, and one very quickly learnt to steer the machine out of trouble by locking up the rear, and taking option 2 escape point in a totally different direction and then get on the gas hard, saved my butt so, many times.

I don't thing that's correct.

ABS adds weight and cost to the new motorcycle, it is another complex automation system that ads many possible failure points to the braking system, it demands ongoing maintenance and it gives inexperienced riders a false sense of security.

It is a matter of cost vs. benefit ratio. I see too few benefits to justify the cost; someone else might well thing the benefits out weight the costs. The balance point between the cost and the benefit is a legitimate thing to discuss, but to claim there is no cost AT ALL is not a reasonable position.

I don't thing that's correct.

ABS adds weight and cost to the new motorcycle, it is another complex automation system that ads many possible failure points to the braking system, it demands ongoing maintenance and it gives inexperienced riders a false sense of security.

It is a matter of cost vs. benefit ratio. I see too few benefits to justify the cost; someone else might well thing the benefits out weight the costs. The balance point between the cost and the benefit is a legitimate thing to discuss, but to claim there is no cost AT ALL is not a reasonable position.
Well, almost everything on a motorcycle these days is more expensive and more complex than on previous generations of motorcycles. Disc brakes systems for one, electric starters, modern electonics, fuel injection, micro processors, computers, liquid cooling systems, all of which are expensive and demand maintenance. (see thread about idle issues), but still we have infinitly better motorcycles because of all the advancements.

We all have insurance which costs a lot, but we happily pay it yearly "just in case". Helmets are not $49 anymore and good riding gear certainly costs more than blue jeans jackets, gym shoes and blue jeans. A trip to the hospital can get very expensive if only to be checked out, as does a ride in an abulance or heaven forbid a helicopter.

ABS is just another tool in the tool box to help protect you. It costs no more than a good full face helmet and armored jacket, weighs no more than a pair of boots and a full face helmet, and in truth is remarkably reliable to the point of never even thinking about it until after you needed it. That is probably a good thing and worthwhile for most.

I trust you noticed in the video I posted above, that EVERY rider, even the professional motorcycle road racer, stopped quicker with ABS. How can that possibly be a bad thing and not worthwhile?

 

[LongRanger_imp]

Is this the same argument we had when you could no longer buy a bike with a kick starter? When points and condensers gave way to electronic ignition? When carburetors were replaced with fuel injection? Ah, progress. As for me, I'll take ABS (and electric start and EI and EFI) every time.

 

[caseyjones_imp]

I know that "facts" and "experts" are no longer in fashion but here is what they have to say:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24884403

 

[rotor]

I know that "facts" and "experts" are no longer in fashion but here is what they have to say:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24884403

What unfortunately is in fashion, is to consider statistical interpretation of facts to be a fact in itself. It is not. I will not go into the whole post hoc fallacy here; it is a topic in itself, unfortunately much wider than motorcycling. And as for experts, ipse dixit comes to mind...

Seriously, I have no objection to the ability of those that believe ABS benefits outweigh the costs to buy a motorcycle with such device. None whatsoever. I do not hold such belief, so the question is this: should I be allowed to buy a motorcycle without them, or should the government force me otherwise? (Today the EU, tomorrow the US. Just like with helmets. Or seat-belts. Or million other things. Will this process of governments deciding what's good for us ever end?)

 

[the Ferret]

Nope, never. Bureaucrats feel it is their job to protect us from ourselves.

 

[LongRanger_imp]

The newest BMW bikes have electronic overrides which limit engine rpm until the bike reaches a certain mileage, for break-in purposes. Is that corporate overreach, or does it protect BMW's ability to reduce warranty claims? Regardless, it's probably something we'll see more of.

 

[Ulvetanna_imp]

The newest BMW bikes have electronic overrides which limit engine rpm until the bike reaches a certain mileage, for break-in purposes. Is that corporate overreach, or does it protect BMW's ability to reduce warranty claims? Regardless, it's probably something we'll see more of.

Yes, I mentioned this a little while ago and appreciate you confirming it. It protects the engine, no? I noticed after I picked up my F800GS after the first service that it was noticeably more responsive to the throttle. GREAT bike. That Rotax is a fantastic engine.

I'll be buying a new bike in the next few weeks, most likely a G 310R BMW, with ABS. My superbike does not have it, my track bike does not have it, and nearly all the time, it's disabled on my BMW. But for the average guy or gal on the street, who has never raced or ridden the dirt, you better believe it's a good idea.

ABS can be stripped from any bike quite easily, BTW. The lever on my GS is stupidly mushy but I am used to it now, and with 9 inches of suspension travel, that's not a bad thing anyway, I would certainly not want to have the strong initial bite I have with my regular streetbikes, CB1100 included.

 

[Cormanus]

The curious thing about the Coriolis effect is that it works both ways and what seems peculiar is a matter of perspective. But I digress.

In summary:
[li]rotor can't be doing with ABS—I think for reasons of cost-benefit;[/li] [li]Ulvetanna reckons a well trained rider can do it better, except in the wet at which time if he's on his F800GS he'll switch it back on;[/li] [li]the Ferret has posted evidence of one test that shows three riders of different skill levels all stopped more quickly with ABS in the wet;[/li] [li]caseyjones has offered a link to a study saying "... there is more than sufficient scientific-based evidence to support the implementation of ABS on all motorcycles, even light ones". It wasn't clear to me from the abstract exactly what circumstances the evidence allegedly showed would be mitigated. Presumably accidents or the severity of injury in accidents.[/li] [li]rotor questioned the wisdom of seeing statistical analysis of a fact as being a fact in itself; and[/li] [li]rotor then moved us to the far more profound question: "Will this process of governments deciding what's good for us ever end? "; and[/li] [li]the Ferret says no on the basis that "Bureaucrats feel it is their job to protect us from ourselves"
[/li] I remain of the view that, if I could have bought a CB1100 fitted with ABS, I would have. I'm not such a good rider that it is likely not to be of use to me in the sort of emergencies for which it is designed to provide assistance. I'm not persuaded I ever could be. I am also not quite stupid enough to believe that having ABS would make me either bulletproof or invulnerable to skidding. However, I'm prepared to suck up not having it for the sake of owning this bike.

I know I shouldn't go anywhere near rotor's and Ferret's final conversation, but I feel obliged to remind you both of something. While it is true that certain bureaucrats are unlikely to let up in their quest to save us all, they generally do it at the behest of their political masters who are looking for band aids to apply to serious wounds. The decision always rests with the politicians and we can all try to influence them as best we can. How successful that will be depends on a whole range of factors too many to contemplate here.

Finally, and as somewhat of a digression from ABS, but still on the subject of braking, the author of the on-line journal that gave us yesterday's discussion starter, also posted a piece on some lessons he learned from being off his bike for a bit. The article is here and I draw your attention to the second lesson.

Here endeth the first.

 

[Ulvetanna_imp]

The only issue I have with ABS is that it is very, very needful to educate riders that it is not an "Automatic Braking System", one cannot crush the lever to the bar and just wait to stop -- not with MOST of the systems out there.

The bike tested in 2009 in the wet had Honda's C-ABS which does apply the maximum calculated pressure to the system, both front and rear, if one just grabs a handful and holds on. There are a few other bikes with such systems; I mentioned Kawasaki's KIBS which received very high marks in testing, and some other high-end bikes.

Most bikes with ABS just release brake pressure rather suddenly to avoid a skid-induced fall, they don't actually bring the bike to a stop as in the video above.

That's why every rider needs to understand what kind of ABS system his/her bike has and practice emergency braking and maneuvering to understand their personal limits and the limits of the system.
I just read that article.

Having been in just that situation with the recent hernia surgery, I can relate.

The instructions for post-surgery recovery stated "no strenuous activity for 4-6 weeks" so I figured it would be at least that long before I'd be riding again.

But I was back out on the CB1100 after ten days.

The key thing I was concerned with was having to suddenly brace the bike if I lost my footing, which could put some strain on the incision. So I was very careful about footing, but that's standard procedure for me because I've got a sub-30" inseam.

Where I depart from Mr. Hinchcliffe is in my absolute rule that no undue pain should be present. And during the entire course of my ride, there was really no pain to speak of, I was comfortable and was able to concentrate in a normal fashion, riding about 100 miles in a good deal of dense traffic and many twisting turns.

Mr. Hinchcliffe was premature and quite foolish in his actions. First off, his knee strength was compromised. Secondly, he stated he was in great pain. This can completely compromise the proper healing of the knee and also could have resulted in dropping the bike or in an accident due to lack of concentration because of the "fury" of his pain.

I am never impressed with men who try to be tough guys and talk about all the pain they can take and do stupid stuff to prove it, and then write an article bragging about it.

I took no medication for my pain, which is best because I could feel the wound healing, and I was not mentally impaired or at risk of withdrawal symptoms. I rested and did not go back onto the bike until I was completely confident I could focus 100 percent on the ride.

Anyway, the article does make mention of some very elementary riding skill pointers which might be kept in mind, avoiding the activation of the ABS system.