ABS: Just Sayin' (Actually, Suzuki says...)

[Ulvetanna_imp]

Official disclaimer on the Suzuki website, referring to the new 2017 GSX-R 1000:

*Depending on road surface conditions, such as wet, loose, or uneven roads, braking distance for an ABS-equipped vehicle may be longer than for a vehicle not equipped with ABS. ABS cannot prevent wheel skidding caused by braking while cornering. Please drive carefully and do not overly rely on ABS.

The new 2017 Gixxer 1000 has what some think is the most advanced electronics package available on any production superbike.

Just sayin'.

 

[emptysea]

Of course you're correct. Again. ABS is really one of the dumbest technologies ever developed. Lucky for me that I don't have it but, based on this warning, I urge all CB1100 ABS riders sell their bikes immediately or at least improve your braking skills. We are mostly new riders, after all.

 

[Cormanus]

I wonder, Ulvetanna, if you are, as my father might have said, trailing your coat? If so, I'm going to tread on it.

What is your point? Of course Suzuki and other manufacturers will include strongly worded disclaimers with their ABS-equipped bikes. They'd be crazy not to. No reasonable person will argue that ABS can save anyone who has to brake hard in every situation. Even if the circumstances are right for ABS to operate at its best, it may well be that the punter simply doesn't have room to stop and ... well ... whammo. Good night nurse. The disclaimer will make it harder for some clown to waste a court's time arguing that the manufacturer implied ABS would save them.

Could I outperform ABS in optimal circumstances? No way. Would I have it on the bike if I could? Too bloody right, as we say in the antipodes. If it gives me the tiniest edge in an emergency, I'm for it. That doesn't mean I think it will make me bulletproof. Nor do I think it means I shouldn't practice breaking techniques. I have ABS on my car and I don't hurtle round the place slamming in the brakes at the last minute confident that it will magically stop me. But it has pulled me up at least once in circumstances where, without it, I would not have been able to stop in the same distance.

Continuing to spruik the inference that ABS is poor technology is a little like asserting Pratchett's Diskworld is round. Buy bikes without it if you want. But hang on to them because I'm willing to bet it will not be long before it's mandated for motorcycles in any number of countries. Even the US of A. Why? Because it will give a few more suckers an even break (pun intended) and that's not altogether a bad thing.

If you can stop your bike better without ABS than with it, full marks to you. I'm willing to bet you're an exception rather than the rule. Meanwhile, let the rest of us admire your extraordinary skill and take what comfort we can from improved technology.

 

[Blockhead_imp]

We all know riding a motorcycle is dangerous. I would be willing to bet a lot of money that ABS braking systems has saved way more people than not.

Obviously, disclaimers are just lawyer speak for companies that want/need to cover their behinds from some overly litigious person that decides to blame the manufacturer because they wiped out while grabbing a handful of front brake in the wrong situation.

See portions of an article below from the New York Times. You can substitute the word 'motorcycle' for the words 'football' or 'game' and it would appear to be a story about motorcycle helmets.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

'Warning Labels on Helmets Combat Injury and Liability'

Even by the alarmist standards of many product warnings, the labels on the backs of the football helmets are bracingly blunt: “No helmet system can protect you from serious brain and/or neck injuries including paralysis or death. To avoid these risks, do not engage in the sport of football.”

Schutt Sports has plastered these words on its helmets for about a decade. To keep up with the times, the warning also pops up on the home page of the company’s Web site, and a scannable label that links to information about head injuries provided by the Centers for Disease Control is affixed to the helmet.

“The simplest thing we can do is remind people that the game has inherent risks,” said Robert Erb, Schutt’s chief executive. “It’s an ethical, moral and legal issue. People need to know these things.”

As concerns about the long-term effects of playing football grow — and lawsuits against leagues, coaches and equipment makers mount — helmets are coming under renewed scrutiny, particularly during the summer, when teams begin preparing for the new season and leagues, coaches and parents buy new helmets or refurbish older ones.

 

[curlyjoe]

I wonder, Ulvetanna, if you are, as my father might have said, trailing your coat? If so, I'm going to tread on it.

What is your point? Of course Suzuki and other manufacturers will include strongly worded disclaimers with their ABS-equipped bikes. They'd be crazy not to. No reasonable person will argue that ABS can save anyone who has to brake hard in every situation. Even if the circumstances are right for ABS to operate at its best, it may well be that the punter simply doesn't have room to stop and ... well ... whammo. Good night nurse. The disclaimer will make it harder for some clown to waste a court's time arguing that the manufacturer implied ABS would save them.

Could I outperform ABS in optimal circumstances? No way. Would I have it on the bike if I could? Too bloody right, as we say in the antipodes. If it gives me the tiniest edge in an emergency, I'm for it. That doesn't mean I think it will make me bulletproof. Nor do I think it means I shouldn't practice breaking techniques. I have ABS on my car and I don't hurtle round the place slamming in the brakes at the last minute confident that it will magically stop me. But it has pulled me up at least once in circumstances where, without it, I would not have been able to stop in the same distance.

Continuing to spruik the inference that ABS is poor technology is a little like asserting Pratchett's Diskworld is round. Buy bikes without it if you want. But hang on to them because I'm willing to bet it will not be long before it's mandated for motorcycles in any number of countries. Even the US of A. Why? Because it will give a few more suckers an even break (pun intended) and that's not altogether a bad thing.

If you can stop your bike better without ABS than with it, full marks to you. I'm willing to bet you're an exception rather than the rule. Meanwhile, let the rest of us admire your extraordinary skill and take what comfort we can from improved technology.

Well said Cormanus. I agree 100%.

 

[the Ferret]

Says the same thing in your Honda CB 1100 owners manual... lawyer speak for we can't save your butt in every instance

but consider this

I love it that you defend riding 45 mph between stopped or slow moving distracted drivers in cars/trucks and eschew ABS. That cracks me up. I do understand you are trying to encourage people to learn how to brake properly and not rely on technology, but there is no reason not to do both, and for those unwilling to learn emergency braking techniques that the technology makes riding a motorcycle a lot safer for them.

Understand that according to studies, the average motorcyclist rides about 1900 miles a year. It's hard to maintain skills when you are riding so infrequently. Technology such as ABS will most benefit those riders.

 

[Ole]

Says the same thing in your Honda CB 1100 owners manual... lawyer speak for we can't save your butt in every instance

but consider this

I love it that you defend riding 45 mph between stopped or slow moving distracted drivers in cars/trucks and eschew ABS. That cracks me up. I do understand you are trying to encourage people to learn how to brake properly and not rely on technology, but there is no reason not to do both, and for those unwilling to learn emergency braking techniques that the technology makes riding a motorcycle a lot safer for them.

Understand that according to studies, the average motorcyclist rides about 1900 miles a year. It's hard to maintain skills when you are riding so infrequently. Technology such as ABS will most benefit those riders.

yep nail meet hammer

 

[Ulvetanna_imp]

Says the same thing in your Honda CB 1100 owners manual... lawyer speak for we can't save your butt in every instance

but consider this

I love it that you defend riding 45 mph between stopped or slow moving distracted drivers in cars/trucks and eschew ABS. That cracks me up. I do understand you are trying to encourage people to learn how to brake properly and not rely on technology, but there is no reason not to do both, and for those unwilling to learn emergency braking techniques that the technology makes riding a motorcycle a lot safer for them.

Understand that according to studies, the average motorcyclist rides about 1900 miles a year. It's hard to maintain skills when you are riding so infrequently. Technology such as ABS will most benefit those riders.

Ferret, I do not defend "riding 45 mph between stopped or slow moving distracted drivers in cars/trucks" nor do I "eschew ABS".

With respect to the first criticism, the California Highway Patrol advocates lane-sharing at those speeds, and it has recently been made legal in California. If you don't like that, take it up with the CHP.

Regarding ABS, most recently, I posted an anecdote about an incident on the freeway last year regarding ABS and braking, wherein I clearly recommended that most riders should get it.

Here is what I posted, verbatim, just a few days ago:

I think everyone should get it if they are the least bit in doubt of their braking skills.

Better to have it and not need it than the other way around.

That's just one place I've advocated for ABS. There are other threads and posts as well.

You've got over 3,000 people who lurk and rarely if ever post. They most likely get my point; that ABS is good to have, but don't expect it to be a miracle-worker.

 

[Lord Popgun]

Cormanus, post up that popcorn eating smiley again please

 

[Ulvetanna_imp]

I wonder, Ulvetanna, if you are, as my father might have said, trailing your coat? If so, I'm going to tread on it.

What is your point? Of course Suzuki and other manufacturers will include strongly worded disclaimers with their ABS-equipped bikes. They'd be crazy not to. No reasonable person will argue that ABS can save anyone who has to brake hard in every situation. Even if the circumstances are right for ABS to operate at its best, it may well be that the punter simply doesn't have room to stop and ... well ... whammo. Good night nurse. The disclaimer will make it harder for some clown to waste a court's time arguing that the manufacturer implied ABS would save them.

Could I outperform ABS in optimal circumstances? No way. Would I have it on the bike if I could? Too bloody right, as we say in the antipodes. If it gives me the tiniest edge in an emergency, I'm for it. That doesn't mean I think it will make me bulletproof. Nor do I think it means I shouldn't practice breaking techniques. I have ABS on my car and I don't hurtle round the place slamming in the brakes at the last minute confident that it will magically stop me. But it has pulled me up at least once in circumstances where, without it, I would not have been able to stop in the same distance.

Continuing to spruik the inference that ABS is poor technology is a little like asserting Pratchett's Diskworld is round. Buy bikes without it if you want. But hang on to them because I'm willing to bet it will not be long before it's mandated for motorcycles in any number of countries. Even the US of A. Why? Because it will give a few more suckers an even break (pun intended) and that's not altogether a bad thing.

If you can stop your bike better without ABS than with it, full marks to you. I'm willing to bet you're an exception rather than the rule. Meanwhile, let the rest of us admire your extraordinary skill and take what comfort we can from improved technology.

I just wonder if it would ever be possible to stop with the high-flown rhetoric, ten-Euro words, sarcasm, and obscure Aussie slang:

I wonder, Ulvetanna, if you are, as my father might have said, trailing your coat? If so, I'm going to tread on it.

Was that necessary? No, but it makes the speaker sound like a distinguished barrister, replete with wig and gown, arguing before a New South Wales court, ridiculing the defendant, much to the pleasure of the spectators.

Like The ferret, you misspeak when you state I continue to "spruik the inference that ABS is poor technology" and my response to The ferret has the proof of this.

It just seems to me that, as both of you are moderators, you all could be a bit more moderate and actually either recall my position on ABS (which I've posted several times) or do a quick search to make sure you are not "standing on your foot." (I say this in all good humor).

Cormanus, post up that popcorn eating smiley again please

Whaddya mean, the show's over, darn it, move along now.

Until the next thread on oil, ABS, or RLETs, that is.:rofl:

 

[rotor]

Official disclaimer on the Suzuki website, referring to the new 2017 GSX-R 1000:

*Depending on road surface conditions, such as wet, loose, or uneven roads, braking distance for an ABS-equipped vehicle may be longer than for a vehicle not equipped with ABS. ABS cannot prevent wheel skidding caused by braking while cornering. Please drive carefully and do not overly rely on ABS.

The new 2017 Gixxer 1000 has what some think is the most advanced electronics package available on any production superbike.

Just sayin'.

+1.

With my years of riding experience, introducing ABS "system" into motorcycles was not just a dumb idea, it was an idiotic idea. I'm too old to see any reason why I should try to change anybody's mind, I'm simply speaking my own. YMMV. Peace.

 

[the Ferret]

well it appears maybe you have not been communicating clearly, because clearly every poster in this thread has the impression that you were "not exactly endorsing" (how's that?) ABS. I think I have a pretty good memory for how people post and in my memory it seems you feel ABS is an unnecessary piece of equipment not to be relied on as compared to track learned skills and is a tool for riders who don't know what they are doing.

you also said
" ABS .... won't stop you faster on a motorcycle. The sooner riders understand these things the sooner they'll divest themselves of a false sense of security and ride accordingly."

you also said

"ABS releases much earlier than maximum braking even on the best bikes. I can't use it, I disconnected it on my BMW."

and you also said

"If I had had ABS on my bike .... I would have hit the car most likely because even the SLIGHTEST reduction in brake pressure would have had me catching him up and thumping him.
So the point to this is anyone who believes ABS is somehow going to save them is ill-advised."

Gee, who would get the impression you don't like ABS?

and I clearly have the impression that you most certainly defend lane sharing up to 45 mph from reading previous posts. I understand it is NOW, a legal practice. Doesn't make my original statement wrong. You do defend it and you did long before it became law. Am I wrong?

 

[Ulvetanna_imp]

well it appears maybe you have not been communicating clearly, because clearly every poster in this thread has the impression that you were "not exactly endorsing" (how's that?) ABS. I think I have a pretty good memory for how people post and in my memory it seems you feel ABS is an unnecessary piece of equipment not to be relied on as compared to track learned skills and is a tool for riders who don't know what they are doing.

you also said
" ABS .... won't stop you faster on a motorcycle. The sooner riders understand these things the sooner they'll divest themselves of a false sense of security and ride accordingly."

you also said

"ABS releases much earlier than maximum braking even on the best bikes. I can't use it, I disconnected it on my BMW."

and you also said

"If I had had ABS on my bike .... I would have hit the car most likely because even the SLIGHTEST reduction in brake pressure would have had me catching him up and thumping him.
So the point to this is anyone who believes ABS is somehow going to save them is ill-advised."

Gee, who would get the impression you don't like ABS?

and I clearly have the impression that you most certainly defend lane sharing up to 45 mph from reading previous posts. I understand it is NOW, a legal practice. Doesn't make my original statement wrong. You do defend it and you did long before it became law. Am I wrong?

Not only do I defend the practice of lane-sharing, as do my friends in law enforcement, I do it myself, as do tens of thousands of California motorcyclists. As you surely know, California's motorcycling population is the largest in the nation by a pretty wide margin; over 800,000 registered bikes as of 2014. We also have a lot of freeways out here. Lane-sharing has been a de-facto practice long before I ever started riding, well-tolerated by law enforcement and the public in general, but now more so than ever.

How my position on lane-sharing -- and my choice to practice it -- bear in any way on my very reasonable statements on the actual capabilities of ABS is irrelevant and ought not to have been introduced into the discussion to begin with.

If every poster in this thread has the impression I reject or "eschew" ABS, then they just haven't yet had the opportunity to carefully read my statements, which are very clear. My position is exactly the same as the manufacturers:

*Depending on road surface conditions, such as wet, loose, or uneven roads, braking distance for an ABS-equipped vehicle may be longer than for a vehicle not equipped with ABS. ABS cannot prevent wheel skidding caused by braking while cornering. Please drive carefully and do not overly rely on ABS.

I counted four posts by folks who seemed to agree with your understanding of my thoughts on ABS. You are, as you asked me to clarify, mistaken about that, as a careful reading of my past postings on this topic will show.

Now I am making my position perfectly clear, so there need be no further misunderstanding. Once again:

*Depending on road surface conditions, such as wet, loose, or uneven roads, braking distance for an ABS-equipped vehicle may be longer than for a vehicle not equipped with ABS. ABS cannot prevent wheel skidding caused by braking while cornering. Please drive carefully and do not overly rely on ABS.

Let me make myself even more clear by linking to several posts I recently made:

Reasons to like CB1100 STD model vs. DLX

Reasons to like CB1100 STD model vs. DLX

There should no longer be any doubt that I advocate for ABS for any rider who doesn't already know, through experience, that he or she does not want or need it for his or her purposes.

I also want to mention you misunderstood my practice of lane-sharing. As the CHP officer in the video I posted recently made clear, lane-sharing is considered acceptable at speeds of 40 mph and below.

What you wrote suggests I defend the practice of riding at 45 mph between rows of vehicles that are stopped or moving very slowly. I do not defend or endorse that kind of thing.

 

[Capo]

Lawyers...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Ulvetanna_imp]

Lawyers...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That's like the old saying, "Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater."

Good point though...ABS is obviously one of those things which is not so obviously understood as the removal of clothing from a child before washing.

Or am I mistaken once again?:beerchug:

 

[the Ferret]

well it appears maybe you have not been communicating clearly, because clearly every poster in this thread has the impression that you were "not exactly endorsing" (how's that?) ABS. I think I have a pretty good memory for how people post and in my memory it seems you feel ABS is an unnecessary piece of equipment not to be relied on as compared to track learned skills and is a tool for riders who don't know what they are doing.

you also said
" ABS .... won't stop you faster on a motorcycle. The sooner riders understand these things the sooner they'll divest themselves of a false sense of security and ride accordingly."

you also said

"ABS releases much earlier than maximum braking even on the best bikes. I can't use it, I disconnected it on my BMW."

and you also said

"If I had had ABS on my bike .... I would have hit the car most likely because even the SLIGHTEST reduction in brake pressure would have had me catching him up and thumping him.
So the point to this is anyone who believes ABS is somehow going to save them is ill-advised."

Gee, who would get the impression you don't like ABS?

and I clearly have the impression that you most certainly defend lane sharing up to 45 mph from reading previous posts. I understand it is NOW, a legal practice. Doesn't make my original statement wrong. You do defend it and you did long before it became law. Am I wrong?

Not only do I defend the practice of lane-sharing, as do my friends in law enforcement, I do it myself, as do tens of thousands of California motorcyclists. As you surely know, California's motorcycling population is the largest in the nation by a pretty wide margin; over 800,000 registered bikes as of 2014. We also have a lot of freeways out here. Lane-sharing has been a de-facto practice long before I ever started riding, well-tolerated by law enforcement and the public in general, but now more so than ever.

How my position on lane-sharing -- and my choice to practice it -- bear in any way on my very reasonable statements on the actual capabilities of ABS is irrelevant and ought not to have been introduced into the discussion to begin with.

If every poster in this thread has the impression I reject or "eschew" ABS, then they just haven't yet had the opportunity to carefully read my statements, which are very clear. My position is exactly the same as the manufacturers:

*Depending on road surface conditions, such as wet, loose, or uneven roads, braking distance for an ABS-equipped vehicle may be longer than for a vehicle not equipped with ABS. ABS cannot prevent wheel skidding caused by braking while cornering. Please drive carefully and do not overly rely on ABS.

I counted four posts by folks who seemed to agree with your understanding of my thoughts on ABS. You are, as you asked me to clarify, mistaken about that, as a careful reading of my past postings on this topic will show.

Now I am making my position perfectly clear, so there need be no further misunderstanding. Once again:

*Depending on road surface conditions, such as wet, loose, or uneven roads, braking distance for an ABS-equipped vehicle may be longer than for a vehicle not equipped with ABS. ABS cannot prevent wheel skidding caused by braking while cornering. Please drive carefully and do not overly rely on ABS.

Let me make myself even more clear by linking to several posts I recently made:

Reasons to like CB1100 STD model vs. DLX

Reasons to like CB1100 STD model vs. DLX

There should no longer be any doubt that I advocate for ABS for any rider who doesn't already know, through experience, that he or she does not want or need it for his or her purposes.

I also want to mention you misunderstood my practice of lane-sharing. As the CHP officer in the video I posted recently made clear, lane-sharing is considered acceptable at speeds of 40 mph and below.

What you wrote suggests I defend the practice of riding at 45 mph between rows of vehicles that are stopped or moving very slowly. I do not defend or endorse that kind of thing.

No wonder I am confused

 

[Ulvetanna_imp]

well it appears maybe you have not been communicating clearly, because clearly every poster in this thread has the impression that you were "not exactly endorsing" (how's that?) ABS. I think I have a pretty good memory for how people post and in my memory it seems you feel ABS is an unnecessary piece of equipment not to be relied on as compared to track learned skills and is a tool for riders who don't know what they are doing.

you also said
" ABS .... won't stop you faster on a motorcycle. The sooner riders understand these things the sooner they'll divest themselves of a false sense of security and ride accordingly."

you also said

"ABS releases much earlier than maximum braking even on the best bikes. I can't use it, I disconnected it on my BMW."

and you also said

"If I had had ABS on my bike .... I would have hit the car most likely because even the SLIGHTEST reduction in brake pressure would have had me catching him up and thumping him.
So the point to this is anyone who believes ABS is somehow going to save them is ill-advised."

Gee, who would get the impression you don't like ABS?

and I clearly have the impression that you most certainly defend lane sharing up to 45 mph from reading previous posts. I understand it is NOW, a legal practice. Doesn't make my original statement wrong. You do defend it and you did long before it became law. Am I wrong?

Not only do I defend the practice of lane-sharing, as do my friends in law enforcement, I do it myself, as do tens of thousands of California motorcyclists. As you surely know, California's motorcycling population is the largest in the nation by a pretty wide margin; over 800,000 registered bikes as of 2014. We also have a lot of freeways out here. Lane-sharing has been a de-facto practice long before I ever started riding, well-tolerated by law enforcement and the public in general, but now more so than ever.

How my position on lane-sharing -- and my choice to practice it -- bear in any way on my very reasonable statements on the actual capabilities of ABS is irrelevant and ought not to have been introduced into the discussion to begin with.

If every poster in this thread has the impression I reject or "eschew" ABS, then they just haven't yet had the opportunity to carefully read my statements, which are very clear. My position is exactly the same as the manufacturers:

*Depending on road surface conditions, such as wet, loose, or uneven roads, braking distance for an ABS-equipped vehicle may be longer than for a vehicle not equipped with ABS. ABS cannot prevent wheel skidding caused by braking while cornering. Please drive carefully and do not overly rely on ABS.

I counted four posts by folks who seemed to agree with your understanding of my thoughts on ABS. You are, as you asked me to clarify, mistaken about that, as a careful reading of my past postings on this topic will show.

Now I am making my position perfectly clear, so there need be no further misunderstanding. Once again:

*Depending on road surface conditions, such as wet, loose, or uneven roads, braking distance for an ABS-equipped vehicle may be longer than for a vehicle not equipped with ABS. ABS cannot prevent wheel skidding caused by braking while cornering. Please drive carefully and do not overly rely on ABS.

Let me make myself even more clear by linking to several posts I recently made:

Reasons to like CB1100 STD model vs. DLX

Reasons to like CB1100 STD model vs. DLX

There should no longer be any doubt that I advocate for ABS for any rider who doesn't already know, through experience, that he or she does not want or need it for his or her purposes.

I also want to mention you misunderstood my practice of lane-sharing. As the CHP officer in the video I posted recently made clear, lane-sharing is considered acceptable at speeds of 40 mph and below.

What you wrote suggests I defend the practice of riding at 45 mph between rows of vehicles that are stopped or moving very slowly. I do not defend or endorse that kind of thing.

No wonder I am confused

No wonder I am confused lol go put some more miles on your bike. I just did. Heck, I went all the way over to the 405 Freeway and criss-crossed under the 101 Freeway just to practice lane-sharing. No, I am not making this up...I like it. Takes the edge off.

I'm gonna put some "position statements" in my profile so's everyone can at least look up where I stand.:beerchug:

 

[the Ferret]

Ahhh nothing beats a good ride eh? Put 87 miles on the ST, enjoyed it so much went back out on the CB for 54 more. man, I love my Honda motorcycles.

 

[Lord Popgun]

And thats it? All right everybody move along. Nothing to see here.

I'm putting my popcorn up

 

[Cormanus]

Reach for the popcorn, popgun. That's not it. Not for the moment anyway.

First, I'm glad you gentlemen have let off steam with a ride. I haven't had a chance to do that yet.

Secondly, Ulvetanna, my sincere apologies for misrepresenting your position on ABS.

Thirdly, however, in my defence, I note that in all the indignant 10-euro responses you've posted, you never once answered my question—namely, what was your point? To be explicit: why did you make the post in the way you did? Why didn't you include a statement that it was in support of your view that ABS is not the be-all and end-all of braking? A statement with which most of us would, I suspect, agree. Instead it appeared to me—and indeed it continues to appear so—that you 'trailed your coat': offering a statement you knew or hoped would provoke precisely the response it got. If I'm wrong about that, I apologise again, but I'd ask that you accept some responsibility for how your communication was received.

Finally, you say "It just seems to me that, as both of you are moderators, you all could be a bit more moderate and actually either recall my position on ABS (which I've posted several times) or do a quick search to make sure you are not "standing on your foot." (I say this in all good humor)". With equal good humour and with respect as well: it's a fair cop; I did shoot myself in the foot. But, fair go. The Ferret and I read pretty much every post on this forum. My memory is not what it used to be and I don't remember every position put by every member on every issue. I don't have time meticulously to research every statement made by every member on every post. I'm simply not going to. If it's a job requirement, I'm outta here.

You have strong opinions which you express extensively and, if I may say so, with plenty of 10-Euro words. Good for you. You're entitled both to the words and the opinions. Heaven knows, I even respect many of the latter. I certainly respect your right to hold them. I'd ask that you offer reciprocal respect.