Hard to down shift

[quail_imp]

Two times now i have had to come to a quick stop on the freeway after riding 70-80 mph for a period of time. Both times I stopped only using the brakes. When I tried to shift down through the gears to 1st while stopped while waiting to take off, the trans would hang up between gears ( I say between because the shift light looks like " - "). It was very hard to get it back down to 1st. Does anyone know why?

[emptysea]

Did you try rolling the bike forward a smidge?

[dave]

Two times now i have had to come to a quick stop on the freeway after riding 70-80 mph for a period of time. Both times I stopped only using the brakes. When I tried to shift down through the gears to 1st while stopped while waiting to take off, the trans would hang up between gears ( I say between because the shift light looks like " - "). It was very hard to get it back down to 1st. Does anyone know why?

Have you ever shifted from sixth gear into first gear on a motorcycle while at a dead stop before? Motorcycle transmissions don't work like car transmissions. Constant mesh (motorcycle) transmissions don't work like this. The gears need to be rotating to allow them to properly engage and disengage. The gears have dogs that interlock with each other and they need to be rotating to properly align the dogs.

[Lord Popgun]

What Dave and ES said.

[Ulvetanna_imp]

Two times now i have had to come to a quick stop on the freeway after riding 70-80 mph for a period of time. Both times I stopped only using the brakes. When I tried to shift down through the gears to 1st while stopped while waiting to take off, the trans would hang up between gears ( I say between because the shift light looks like " - "). It was very hard to get it back down to 1st. Does anyone know why?

Have you ever shifted from sixth gear into first gear on a motorcycle while at a dead stop before? Motorcycle transmissions don't work like car transmissions. Constant mesh (motorcycle) transmissions don't work like this. The gears need to be rotating to allow them to properly engage and disengage. The gears have dogs that interlock with each other and they need to be rotating to properly align the dogs.

Have you ever shifted from sixth gear into first gear on a motorcycle while at a dead stop before? Motorcycle transmissions don't work like car transmissions. Constant mesh (motorcycle) transmissions don't work like this. The gears need to be rotating to allow them to properly engage and disengage. The gears have dogs that interlock with each other and they need to be rotating to properly align the dogs. As with the post about the member not knowing he had his sidestand down, here again I am very surprised any more experienced riders don't understand what is going on with this.

At one point I considered posting a poll, asking riders if they did or did not downshift into every single gear as they came to a stop.

That is to say, it is possible (I have been doing it practically from day one) to shift quickly down through the gears from top to first with the clutch pulled in whilst on the brakes. But not after you've come to a stop. You need to let the clutch out a bit between every shift if you are at a complete stop.

To see anyone not aware of this technique is surprising. It's sloppy to let the clutch out after every shift when coming to a stop. You anticipate how much you need to slow down, pull the clutch in once, apply the brakes, and click down as many gears as you need before releasing the clutch again. Works perfectly.

My left foot automatically clicks down the right number of gears, it requires no thought at all any more. That ten bucks worth of attention Keith Code talks about can be spent somewhere else.

[CBryder_imp]

Is there the possibility of some real harm to the bike with compression braking?
I've always done to some degree with vehicles having standard transmissions, but nobody ever really mentions it on this forum.

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[the Ferret]

Unless you are high in the rev range and low in the transmission, there isn't a whole lot of compression braking on the CB, but it won't hurt it a bit.

I think books like Code's TOTW, and some of Ulva's advice is geared more toward racers and the spirited road riders that ride specific roads over and over, than the casual street rider. There are differeing techniques for a racer coming into the corner at the end of a long straight on a race track and a casual rider coming to a curve at the end of a long straight on the street, particularly if he is unfamiliar with that road. After the first lap the racer knows what to expect at the end of the straight next lap around, and if there is something unexpected there is a marshall there with a flag to warn him. SO he can come in boiling in 6 th, pull in the clutch , jam down 4 gears and exit in second, because that is the most efficient way thru that turn for the racer. For the street rider he must be more cautious, not knowing what is around the corner, so a series of downshifts may be in order, because he may be able to take that turn in fourth, but he may want to take it in third, or second, depending on what he finds when he gets there and looks through it.

I have turns I know I want to take in 3rd, one I know I want to take in second, and in those cases I will pull in the clutch and make multiple downshifts at once before letting out the clutch in the correct gear. But on unfamiliar turns, I am going to approach it more cautiously, one gear at a time until I decide which gear is the right gear for the situation as it unfolds in front of me.

Racers have the benefit of repeated practice to find shift points, brake points, tip in points, best line, maximum and minimum speed, and those points are learned over many laps. We don't always have that benefit on the street.

[Rocky_imp]

This "locking" of gears happens nearly every time I have to make a sudden stop (on whatever bike) and don't have time to shift down through the gears. It's quite normal due to motorcycle transmission design as has been explained.
While I'm at a stop I go though a series of clutch engagement and release all the while moving down through the gears until I get to first.
Nothing to worry about.

[Ulvetanna_imp]

Unless you are high in the rev range and low in the transmission, there isn't a whole lot of compression braking on the CB, but it won't hurt it a bit.

I think books like Code's TOTW, and some of Ulva's advice is geared more toward racers and the spirited road riders that ride specific roads over and over, than the casual street rider. There are differeing techniques for a racer coming into the corner at the end of a long straight on a race track and a casual rider coming to a curve at the end of a long straight on the street, particularly if he is unfamiliar with that road. After the first lap the racer knows what to expect at the end of the straight next lap around, and if there is something unexpected there is a marshall there with a flag to warn him. SO he can come in boiling in 6 th, pull in the clutch , jam down 4 gears and exit in second, because that is the most efficient way thru that turn for the racer. For the street rider he must be more cautious, not knowing what is around the corner, so a series of downshifts may be in order, because he may be able to take that turn in fourth, but he may want to take it in third, or second, depending on what he finds when he gets there and looks through it.

I have turns I know I want to take in 3rd, one I know I want to take in second, and in those cases I will pull in the clutch and make multiple downshifts at once before letting out the clutch in the correct gear. But on unfamiliar turns, I am going to approach it more cautiously, one gear at a time until I decide which gear is the right gear for the situation as it unfolds in front of me.

Racers have the benefit of repeated practice to find shift points, brake points, tip in points, best line, maximum and minimum speed, and those points are learned over many laps. We don't always have that benefit on the street.

All exactly correct.

Now, in Code's first book, since it was mentioned, IIRC he says the brakes are for slowing the bike and the engine is for accelerating.

Code used to race two-stroke bikes and in those days that wasn't even a suggestion, there was very little engine-braking from the 2-strokes.

These days, and with any four-stroke, engine braking is an absolutely critical element of riding. It can be varied by adjustments in the ECU with modern bikes, and even from one sector to another on a racetrack based on GPS or transponder position, as can engine power delivery.

If you ride in high gears, as The Ferret stated, not much engine braking there. Keep the RPM above 5K, there's ample such available.

Anyway, what he also stated about multiple downshifts is what I was discussing in my earlier post.

I learned all that stuff dirt riding which I am sure he did as well. You can either roll a bit or let the clutch out a few times and tap down if you forget to downshift whilst stopping.

Unless you are high in the rev range and low in the transmission, there isn't a whole lot of compression braking on the CB, but it won't hurt it a bit.

I think books like Code's TOTW, and some of Ulva's advice is geared more toward racers and the spirited road riders that ride specific roads over and over, than the casual street rider. There are differeing techniques for a racer coming into the corner at the end of a long straight on a race track and a casual rider coming to a curve at the end of a long straight on the street, particularly if he is unfamiliar with that road. After the first lap the racer knows what to expect at the end of the straight next lap around, and if there is something unexpected there is a marshall there with a flag to warn him. SO he can come in boiling in 6 th, pull in the clutch , jam down 4 gears and exit in second, because that is the most efficient way thru that turn for the racer. For the street rider he must be more cautious, not knowing what is around the corner, so a series of downshifts may be in order, because he may be able to take that turn in fourth, but he may want to take it in third, or second, depending on what he finds when he gets there and looks through it.

I have turns I know I want to take in 3rd, one I know I want to take in second, and in those cases I will pull in the clutch and make multiple downshifts at once before letting out the clutch in the correct gear. But on unfamiliar turns, I am going to approach it more cautiously, one gear at a time until I decide which gear is the right gear for the situation as it unfolds in front of me.

Racers have the benefit of repeated practice to find shift points, brake points, tip in points, best line, maximum and minimum speed, and those points are learned over many laps. We don't always have that benefit on the street.

I just want to point out that this is a dirt-riding technique, you could do this whilst dirt-riding, no worries, because even though, let's say, you downshifted from 6th to 3rd and were not quite precise in coming back out with the clutch, the rear tire will skid a bit whilst entering the turn, which is expected as a possibility and actually can help with corner entry. Then the throttle would be immediately picked up and perhaps the wheel spun up under power to continue the turn.

This would NEVER be done on a road race track. We always shift discretely into each gear to ensure RPM matching and maximum control. A mismatch at high engine speed and vehicle speed on pavement is very serious, either a blown engine, high-side or some kind of problem is going to ensue.

We have reference points for downshifting and you cannot really miss those when blazing down the front or back straight at 140 mph. They could be cones, or a mark on the pavement, or some other thing.

Every track day sets the cones differently so I usually use pavement marks but those change too.

[AzBob_imp]

Unless you are high in the rev range and low in the transmission, there isn't a whole lot of compression braking on the CB, but it won't hurt it a bit.

I think books like Code's TOTW, and some of Ulva's advice is geared more toward racers and the spirited road riders that ride specific roads over and over, than the casual street rider. There are differeing techniques for a racer coming into the corner at the end of a long straight on a race track and a casual rider coming to a curve at the end of a long straight on the street, particularly if he is unfamiliar with that road. After the first lap the racer knows what to expect at the end of the straight next lap around, and if there is something unexpected there is a marshall there with a flag to warn him. SO he can come in boiling in 6 th, pull in the clutch , jam down 4 gears and exit in second, because that is the most efficient way thru that turn for the racer. For the street rider he must be more cautious, not knowing what is around the corner, so a series of downshifts may be in order, because he may be able to take that turn in fourth, but he may want to take it in third, or second, depending on what he finds when he gets there and looks through it.

I have turns I know I want to take in 3rd, one I know I want to take in second, and in those cases I will pull in the clutch and make multiple downshifts at once before letting out the clutch in the correct gear. But on unfamiliar turns, I am going to approach it more cautiously, one gear at a time until I decide which gear is the right gear for the situation as it unfolds in front of me.

Racers have the benefit of repeated practice to find shift points, brake points, tip in points, best line, maximum and minimum speed, and those points are learned over many laps. We don't always have that benefit on the street.

All exactly correct.

Now, in Code's first book, since it was mentioned, IIRC he says the brakes are for slowing the bike and the engine is for accelerating.

Code used to race two-stroke bikes and in those days that wasn't even a suggestion, there was very little engine-braking from the 2-strokes.

These days, and with any four-stroke, engine braking is an absolutely critical element of riding. It can be varied by adjustments in the ECU with modern bikes, and even from one sector to another on a racetrack based on GPS or transponder position, as can engine power delivery.

If you ride in high gears, as The Ferret stated, not much engine braking there. Keep the RPM above 5K, there's ample such available.

Anyway, what he also stated about multiple downshifts is what I was discussing in my earlier post.

I learned all that stuff dirt riding which I am sure he did as well. You can either roll a bit or let the clutch out a few times and tap down if you forget to downshift whilst stopping.

Unless you are high in the rev range and low in the transmission, there isn't a whole lot of compression braking on the CB, but it won't hurt it a bit.

I think books like Code's TOTW, and some of Ulva's advice is geared more toward racers and the spirited road riders that ride specific roads over and over, than the casual street rider. There are differeing techniques for a racer coming into the corner at the end of a long straight on a race track and a casual rider coming to a curve at the end of a long straight on the street, particularly if he is unfamiliar with that road. After the first lap the racer knows what to expect at the end of the straight next lap around, and if there is something unexpected there is a marshall there with a flag to warn him. SO he can come in boiling in 6 th, pull in the clutch , jam down 4 gears and exit in second, because that is the most efficient way thru that turn for the racer. For the street rider he must be more cautious, not knowing what is around the corner, so a series of downshifts may be in order, because he may be able to take that turn in fourth, but he may want to take it in third, or second, depending on what he finds when he gets there and looks through it.

I have turns I know I want to take in 3rd, one I know I want to take in second, and in those cases I will pull in the clutch and make multiple downshifts at once before letting out the clutch in the correct gear. But on unfamiliar turns, I am going to approach it more cautiously, one gear at a time until I decide which gear is the right gear for the situation as it unfolds in front of me.

Racers have the benefit of repeated practice to find shift points, brake points, tip in points, best line, maximum and minimum speed, and those points are learned over many laps. We don't always have that benefit on the street.

I just want to point out that this is a dirt-riding technique, you could do this whilst dirt-riding, no worries, because even though, let's say, you downshifted from 6th to 3rd and were not quite precise in coming back out with the clutch, the rear tire will skid a bit whilst entering the turn, which is expected as a possibility and actually can help with corner entry. Then the throttle would be immediately picked up and perhaps the wheel spun up under power to continue the turn.

This would NEVER be done on a road race track. We always shift discretely into each gear to ensure RPM matching and maximum control. A mismatch at high engine speed and vehicle speed on pavement is very serious, either a blown engine, high-side or some kind of problem is going to ensue.

We have reference points for downshifting and you cannot really miss those when blazing down the front or back straight at 140 mph. They could be cones, or a mark on the pavement, or some other thing.

Every track day sets the cones differently so I usually use pavement marks but those change too.

I agree and I would never do it, but if your bike has a slipper clutch, the problem of mismatched output shaft speed to input shaft speed is moot (assuming one downshifted within the boundaries of RPM the engine can handle for the gear you downshifted to). I never bother rev-matching while downshifting on my CBR, but I only go down one gear at-a-time.