RE: CB1100 Idle speed instability problem

[E11even_Hunnit]

Hate to be so off-topic, but being that there is in-depth ECU "re-programming" of sorts being done here- Is there any access/capabilities to remove the nonsense 110MPH speed limiter that came from the factory?

Throwing away ~$400 for simply being able to access the engine's true output potential(that's already there to begin with) is not something I've been able to wrap my head around

It's almost as if despite owning the bike outright, you're somehow still in "trial-mode" and have to pay for the full version to unlock all the features

I think I can understand if you've hit a plateau in the powerband and absolutely NEED physical engine bolt-on upgrades in order to make more power, for obvious reasons.

In my humble opinion, the Guhl flash is a very expensive way to get your bike to hit the top speed the engine was made able to deliver, not any more than that. For comparison, I'd feel so much happier/satisfied getting cams/intake/exhaust done to a car even if I have to pay a shop for the labor intensiveness of the job + parts, because I know that's ~5Hrs. of someone's effort & sweat to get the job done. The ECU flash on the other hand, can't be much more complicated than plugging it in to a PC and clicking a few buttons and slapping a sticker on it.

I guess I'm really just complaining at the lack of options for removal of the stupid limiter.

/Rant over

[Cormanus]

Max, thanks for the explanation about 'resetting' and 'initialising'. In the normal course of events, switching the power off and on should reset and then initialise the ECU. If it does, clearly it was having no effect on this IACV problem. So, either the Japanese forums are talking about something more complex—the equivalent of a factory restore of a phone or computer—or we're taking about upgrading the firmware. I repeat, if there is upgraded firmware to be had, it seems very strange to me that it's only available in Japan and Honda in the US hasn't heard about it.

E11even_Hunnit, if it were as simple as popping out the garage with a laptop and a plug for the connection under the left side cover, popgun and max would have figured it out years ago, or you could watch some bloke on YouTube showing you how to do it. It suggests that Don Guhl has a bit of investment either in purchased or home-made software that allows him to read ECUs and modify the settings. He has to do something to recoup the cost of that. Presumably there's also some time and care in individual attention to owners' requests to tinker with various ECU settings. Of course, it's likely I'm wrong and I look forward to your telling the forum how you figured it out. Good luck.

[E11even_Hunnit]

Max, thanks for the explanation about 'resetting' and 'initialising'. In the normal course of events, switching the power off and on should reset and then initialise the ECU. If it does, clearly it was having no effect on this IACV problem. So, either the Japanese forums are talking about something more complex—the equivalent of a factory restore of a phone or computer—or we're taking about upgrading the firmware. I repeat, if there is upgraded firmware to be had, it seems very strange to me that it's only available in Japan and Honda in the US hasn't heard about it.

E11even_Hunnit, if it were as simple as popping out the garage with a laptop and a plug for the connection under the left side cover, popgun and max would have figured it out years ago, or you could watch some bloke on YouTube showing you how to do it. It suggests that Don Guhl has a bit of investment either in purchased or home-made software that allows him to read ECUs and modify the settings. He has to do something to recoup the cost of that. Presumably there's also some time and care in individual attention to owners' requests to tinker with various ECU settings. Of course, it's likely I'm wrong and I look forward to your telling the forum how you figured it out. Good luck.

It was not my intent to diminish the service provided or suggest that even a caveman could do it. Clearly, there is a bit of a science and know-how behind it, and yes, some form of "R&D/capital investment component" in there too, I'm sure. I was more so questioning the mere fact that 7+ years after this bike's been on the road, and in the hands of tinkerers, and this is still somehow the only game in town? If we assume that 10 ECU flashes are done in a single year(conservative figure), since 2014, you're looking at well over $20k in recouping/ROI. That's without factoring in the golden years when the hype for the bike was at it's prime and owners were spending MSRP and subsequently spending thousands at a time on parts from Japan(through Samurider as an example), at which point I'm sure well above 10 flashes were being done/ year.

Every project has a break-even point but once you're past it, it's all profits. I'd find it a bit hard to believe Don is struggling still to try to meet that break-even point, but I might be wrong on that. There is also nothing wrong from a business POV to have the desire to profit as much as you can once you're through that break-even point, its only logical. Then there's the law of increasing returns to consider, but that's a whole other conversation

Speaking strictly as a consumer I'd prefer not having to get stiffed for this now-routine job that is no longer the "break-through" development it once was. I would also, as a consumer, like to benefit from as much aftermarket support as I can for this not-new bike, along with the benefits of competition in the marketplace that come with it, and not have to rely on just 1 vendor for x part/mod. If Guhl goes out of business tomorrow that means ECU's can no longer be flashed, and the ones that are skyrocket in price?

I wish I possessed the time/resources needed to do this myself so I could indeed share the fruits with the board and promulgate how I figured it out, but then again I'm no motorcycle shop, nor gifted in the area of playing with ECU mapping settings, hence I just had to bring it up when I saw others getting in there in somewhat close proximity to the problem area.

I just want to point out that I'm merely welcoming(or begging, really) for others to look into this, and perhaps come up with a way to do this that doesn't involve burning through ~$400. Yes, I find the pricing a bit excessive, and quite frankly, knowing the helpful nature of this forum, I wouldn't doubt this would get stickied/made more accessible to all, since I think we can all agree that the bike should've came that way in the first place

[the Ferret]

I wonder how many CB owners would actually re-flash their ECU's given the chance, and at what price point it would take for people to do it. Would they do it for $300? $200? $100? If it only cost $50 I still wouldn't do it. I'm happy with how my bike runs now and have no desire to explore the other side of 100 mph anymore. Yet I understand there are those that would. Considering some fairings, and some seats, or a slip on exhaust can cost more than the cost of a re-flash, it seems if it was really a priority for most owners, they would have no issue paying since they eagerly buy seats, pipes and fairings. Seems most prioritize looks, or comfort or noise over performance.

[pdedse]

Max, thanks for the explanation about 'resetting' and 'initialising'. In the normal course of events, switching the power off and on should reset and then initialise the ECU. If it does, clearly it was having no effect on this IACV problem. So, either the Japanese forums are talking about something more complex—the equivalent of a factory restore of a phone or computer—or we're taking about upgrading the firmware. I repeat, if there is upgraded firmware to be had, it seems very strange to me that it's only available in Japan and Honda in the US hasn't heard about it.

E11even_Hunnit, if it were as simple as popping out the garage with a laptop and a plug for the connection under the left side cover, popgun and max would have figured it out years ago, or you could watch some bloke on YouTube showing you how to do it. It suggests that Don Guhl has a bit of investment either in purchased or home-made software that allows him to read ECUs and modify the settings. He has to do something to recoup the cost of that. Presumably there's also some time and care in individual attention to owners' requests to tinker with various ECU settings. Of course, it's likely I'm wrong and I look forward to your telling the forum how you figured it out. Good luck.

It was not my intent to diminish the service provided or suggest that even a caveman could do it. Clearly, there is a bit of a science and know-how behind it, and yes, some form of "R&D/capital investment component" in there too, I'm sure. I was more so questioning the mere fact that 7+ years after this bike's been on the road, and in the hands of tinkerers, and this is still somehow the only game in town? If we assume that 10 ECU flashes are done in a single year(conservative figure), since 2014, you're looking at well over $20k in recouping/ROI. That's without factoring in the golden years when the hype for the bike was at it's prime and owners were spending MSRP and subsequently spending thousands at a time on parts from Japan(through Samurider as an example), at which point I'm sure well above 10 flashes were being done/ year.

Every project has a break-even point but once you're past it, it's all profits. I'd find it a bit hard to believe Don is struggling still to try to meet that break-even point, but I might be wrong on that. There is also nothing wrong from a business POV to have the desire to profit as much as you can once you're through that break-even point, its only logical. Then there's the law of increasing returns to consider, but that's a whole other conversation

Speaking strictly as a consumer I'd prefer not having to get stiffed for this now-routine job that is no longer the "break-through" development it once was. I would also, as a consumer, like to benefit from as much aftermarket support as I can for this not-new bike, along with the benefits of competition in the marketplace that come with it, and not have to rely on just 1 vendor for x part/mod. If Guhl goes out of business tomorrow that means ECU's can no longer be flashed, and the ones that are skyrocket in price?

I wish I possessed the time/resources needed to do this myself so I could indeed share the fruits with the board and promulgate how I figured it out, but then again I'm no motorcycle shop, nor gifted in the area of playing with ECU mapping settings, hence I just had to bring it up when I saw others getting in there in somewhat close proximity to the problem area.

I just want to point out that I'm merely welcoming(or begging, really) for others to look into this, and perhaps come up with a way to do this that doesn't involve burning through ~$400. Yes, I find the pricing a bit excessive, and quite frankly, knowing the helpful nature of this forum, I wouldn't doubt this would get stickied/made more accessible to all, since I think we can all agree that the bike should've came that way in the first place

Hey E11even...don't take my following question as a challenge to one's desire to have the bike "unfettered"; rather, I ask out of curiosity:

How often do you (others?) get this bike up to 112mph? Is it a routine thing you do? Say, once a month, or is it rather once in a blue moon thing--but you do...or more is it never, but it would be nice to do so if I wanted?

I ask because I've only had one motorcycle over 100mph. I think I hit 108, maybe it was 110 on my '04 Sportster. The speedo was vibrating so much I couldn't really good a good look at it... and that was just once out in the open of the great Oregon high desert with nary a car in sight for who knows how many miles, but let's say at least 20 minutes with no other vehicle to be seen on the horizon....and it was like, holy mother of pearl, I don't think I need to be doing this again soon. And I haven't. I suppose it was exhiliratin' for a few seconds, then my personal idea of good riding kicked in and I brought it back to 85.

I think I've had the cb1100 at 90+ a few times on the lonely stretches of South Dakota, but I just don't feel compelled to seek out the max on this bike or any other.

So again, not saying "YOU shouldn't worry about it because you likely never go that fast"...just curious. I guess I'm saying I don't worry about it because I know I'll never go that fast.

A poll might be interesting: 1. how many times have you maxed out on the cb1100? Might also be interesting to know: If you won't pay $400, what would you pay to have the limiter removed?

Question: does reflashing the ECU do anything else besides removing the the speed limit max?

EDIT: Hahaha...the ferret beat me to it....again!

[E11even_Hunnit]

These are both great and valid questions which I very much welcome. Let me answer these in short first, then with a bit more of my rationale second.

How often/how many times do I get capped at the 112MPH mark?
-On average, once a week or a little less? Let's call it a handful(sometimes 2) of times a month. Again, My riding habits

How much would I be happy/OK paying for this god-given right of the machine?
-Ideally? $0(As mentioned, this should be rightfully allowed to the owner IMO) Realistically? $200 TOPS. And that's pushing it

What else is included in the hefty $375 charged @ Guhl?
-AFAIK, Speed limiter accounts for ~90% of all the changes made. The rest, I've read vaguely, so don't quote me but from what I've gathered on other threads redline enhancements and "Optimizing the powerband(eliminating dead/sluggish spots in the same)" also, I believe there is a small range of preference for you to express to Don when making changes, some of which he can accommodate to an extent, within reason/ability ofcourse

I'll be the first one to say, this isn't the best bike to do fast riding, for obvious reasons. Weight, and ergonomics being the top ones in my book. Still, why can't an 1140cc bike be taken to it's limitations? I get that the word "limitations" is very subjective, and some might call what is "too fast" for their comfort levels, a limit, but in reality it isn't. The bike is still planted at the cap speed(even with the garbage stock tires & sh*tty CA Freeway roads), and lets you know that it still has a bit more to give, but then the plug is pulled

I've ridden smaller CC bikes that I've pushed to their true limitations, so I have somewhat of an idea of what that actually feels like- wobbly front end that wants to give/motor that is begging to be taken down RPM's cause it's gonna throw a rod- are what I believe to be among true bike limitations. Having past riding experience with actual "fast bikes", risk tolerance and comfort levels in mind, to each their own I guess.

I will also mention that I'm definitely an outlier as it pertains to the age demographic range for this bike, most of you could easily be my dad or even grandpa in some cases. I don't mean that in a disrespectful manner, just to put into perspective the differences in riding habits/desires a 27y/o guy might want out of his machine, as opposed to the more speed-limit friendly riding most of you folks engage in on these bikes for the vast majority.

Also for context, I don't reach the bike's cap during city riding, it's strictly Highway situations where we are really enjoying one another, and then she dies. It's like finally being alone with your smoking hot H.S. girlfriend, and right when things are about to get interesting, someone walks in on you to kill the moment

Part of my frustrations come from the very question just asked. Why not just allocate those funds to another area of improvement such as looks/rideability? To this I will say that it would be money better spent without a doubt(I'd rather pay $400 for pipes or suspension upgrades) But what happens when I got the exhaust I want, the seat I want, the mirrors I want, even a PCV? Nope, 112MPH is what you get. I call that BS

In short, I would much rather throw $400 at other areas of the bike that could be enjoyed 100% of the time, not just 5%-10% in my case. Hence I wish that this would become an easier process

[pdedse]

These are both great and valid questions which I very much welcome. Let me answer these in short first, then with a bit more of my rationale second.

How often/how many times do I get capped at the 112MPH mark?
-On average, once a week or a little less? Let's call it a handful(sometimes 2) of times a month. Again, My riding habits

How much would I be happy/OK paying for this god-given right of the machine?
-Ideally? $0(As mentioned, this should be rightfully allowed to the owner IMO) Realistically? $200 TOPS. And that's pushing it

What else is included in the hefty $375 charged @ Guhl?
-AFAIK, Speed limiter accounts for ~90% of all the changes made. The rest, I've read vaguely, so don't quote me but from what I've gathered on other threads redline enhancements and "Optimizing the powerband(eliminating dead/sluggish spots in the same)" also, I believe there is a small range of preference for you to express to Don when making changes, some of which he can accommodate to an extent, within reason/ability ofcourse

I'll be the first one to say, this isn't the best bike to do fast riding, for obvious reasons. Weight, and ergonomics being the top ones in my book. Still, why can't an 1140cc bike be taken to it's limitations? I get that the word "limitations" is very subjective, and some might call what is "too fast" for their comfort levels, a limit, but in reality it isn't. The bike is still planted at the cap speed(even with the garbage stock tires & sh*tty CA Freeway roads), and lets you know that it still has a bit more to give, but then the plug is pulled

I've ridden smaller CC bikes that I've pushed to their true limitations, so I have somewhat of an idea of what that actually feels like- wobbly front end that wants to give/motor that is begging to be taken down RPM's cause it's gonna throw a rod- are what I believe to be among true bike limitations. Having past riding experience with actual "fast bikes", risk tolerance and comfort levels in mind, to each their own I guess.

I will also mention that I'm definitely an outlier as it pertains to the age demographic range for this bike, most of you could easily be my dad or even grandpa in some cases. I don't mean that in a disrespectful manner, just to put into perspective the differences in riding habits/desires a 27y/o guy might want out of his machine, as opposed to the more speed-limit friendly riding most of you folks engage in on these bikes for the vast majority.

Also for context, I don't reach the bike's cap during city riding, it's strictly Highway situations where we are really enjoying one another, and then she dies. It's like finally being alone with your smoking hot H.S. girlfriend, and right when things are about to get interesting, someone walks in on you to kill the moment

Part of my frustrations come from the very question just asked. Why not just allocate those funds to another area of improvement such as looks/rideability? To this I will say that it would be money better spent without a doubt(I'd rather pay $400 for pipes or suspension upgrades) But what happens when I got the exhaust I want, the seat I want, the mirrors I want, even a PCV? Nope, 112MPH is what you get. I call that BS

In short, I would much rather throw $400 at other areas of the bike that could be enjoyed 100% of the time, not just 5%-10% in my case. Hence I wish that this would become an easier process

That would make a big difference.

These are both great and valid questions which I very much welcome. Let me answer these in short first, then with a bit more of my rationale second.

How often/how many times do I get capped at the 112MPH mark?
-On average, once a week or a little less? Let's call it a handful(sometimes 2) of times a month. Again, My riding habits

How much would I be happy/OK paying for this god-given right of the machine?
-Ideally? $0(As mentioned, this should be rightfully allowed to the owner IMO) Realistically? $200 TOPS. And that's pushing it

What else is included in the hefty $375 charged @ Guhl?
-AFAIK, Speed limiter accounts for ~90% of all the changes made. The rest, I've read vaguely, so don't quote me but from what I've gathered on other threads redline enhancements and "Optimizing the powerband(eliminating dead/sluggish spots in the same)" also, I believe there is a small range of preference for you to express to Don when making changes, some of which he can accommodate to an extent, within reason/ability ofcourse

I'll be the first one to say, this isn't the best bike to do fast riding, for obvious reasons. Weight, and ergonomics being the top ones in my book. Still, why can't an 1140cc bike be taken to it's limitations? I get that the word "limitations" is very subjective, and some might call what is "too fast" for their comfort levels, a limit, but in reality it isn't. The bike is still planted at the cap speed(even with the garbage stock tires & sh*tty CA Freeway roads), and lets you know that it still has a bit more to give, but then the plug is pulled

I've ridden smaller CC bikes that I've pushed to their true limitations, so I have somewhat of an idea of what that actually feels like- wobbly front end that wants to give/motor that is begging to be taken down RPM's cause it's gonna throw a rod- are what I believe to be among true bike limitations. Having past riding experience with actual "fast bikes", risk tolerance and comfort levels in mind, to each their own I guess.

I will also mention that I'm definitely an outlier as it pertains to the age demographic range for this bike, most of you could easily be my dad or even grandpa in some cases. I don't mean that in a disrespectful manner, just to put into perspective the differences in riding habits/desires a 27y/o guy might want out of his machine, as opposed to the more speed-limit friendly riding most of you folks engage in on these bikes for the vast majority.

Also for context, I don't reach the bike's cap during city riding, it's strictly Highway situations where we are really enjoying one another, and then she dies. It's like finally being alone with your smoking hot H.S. girlfriend, and right when things are about to get interesting, someone walks in on you to kill the moment

Part of my frustrations come from the very question just asked. Why not just allocate those funds to another area of improvement such as looks/rideability? To this I will say that it would be money better spent without a doubt(I'd rather pay $400 for pipes or suspension upgrades) But what happens when I got the exhaust I want, the seat I want, the mirrors I want, even a PCV? Nope, 112MPH is what you get. I call that BS

In short, I would much rather throw $400 at other areas of the bike that could be enjoyed 100% of the time, not just 5%-10% in my case. Hence I wish that this would become an easier process

Isn't the 112 = 180kph limit set because of legal limits in Japan? But you're prolly asking more philosophically.

These are both great and valid questions which I very much welcome. Let me answer these in short first, then with a bit more of my rationale second.

How often/how many times do I get capped at the 112MPH mark?
-On average, once a week or a little less? Let's call it a handful(sometimes 2) of times a month. Again, My riding habits

How much would I be happy/OK paying for this god-given right of the machine?
-Ideally? $0(As mentioned, this should be rightfully allowed to the owner IMO) Realistically? $200 TOPS. And that's pushing it

What else is included in the hefty $375 charged @ Guhl?
-AFAIK, Speed limiter accounts for ~90% of all the changes made. The rest, I've read vaguely, so don't quote me but from what I've gathered on other threads redline enhancements and "Optimizing the powerband(eliminating dead/sluggish spots in the same)" also, I believe there is a small range of preference for you to express to Don when making changes, some of which he can accommodate to an extent, within reason/ability ofcourse

I'll be the first one to say, this isn't the best bike to do fast riding, for obvious reasons. Weight, and ergonomics being the top ones in my book. Still, why can't an 1140cc bike be taken to it's limitations? I get that the word "limitations" is very subjective, and some might call what is "too fast" for their comfort levels, a limit, but in reality it isn't. The bike is still planted at the cap speed(even with the garbage stock tires & sh*tty CA Freeway roads), and lets you know that it still has a bit more to give, but then the plug is pulled

I've ridden smaller CC bikes that I've pushed to their true limitations, so I have somewhat of an idea of what that actually feels like- wobbly front end that wants to give/motor that is begging to be taken down RPM's cause it's gonna throw a rod- are what I believe to be among true bike limitations. Having past riding experience with actual "fast bikes", risk tolerance and comfort levels in mind, to each their own I guess.

I will also mention that I'm definitely an outlier as it pertains to the age demographic range for this bike, most of you could easily be my dad or even grandpa in some cases. I don't mean that in a disrespectful manner, just to put into perspective the differences in riding habits/desires a 27y/o guy might want out of his machine, as opposed to the more speed-limit friendly riding most of you folks engage in on these bikes for the vast majority.

Also for context, I don't reach the bike's cap during city riding, it's strictly Highway situations where we are really enjoying one another, and then she dies. It's like finally being alone with your smoking hot H.S. girlfriend, and right when things are about to get interesting, someone walks in on you to kill the moment

Part of my frustrations come from the very question just asked. Why not just allocate those funds to another area of improvement such as looks/rideability? To this I will say that it would be money better spent without a doubt(I'd rather pay $400 for pipes or suspension upgrades) But what happens when I got the exhaust I want, the seat I want, the mirrors I want, even a PCV? Nope, 112MPH is what you get. I call that BS

In short, I would much rather throw $400 at other areas of the bike that could be enjoyed 100% of the time, not just 5%-10% in my case. Hence I wish that this would become an easier process

Smoking hot H.S. girlfriend..... sigh.. now I undertand why I don't get it.

[Cormanus]

Good points E11even-Hunnit. I'm with Ferret and pdedse: I've had the CB1100 somewhere near the limiter maybe once and I'm in no hurry to do it again. But, it's your bike; your call. pdedse is right that it's there to meet Japanese legal requirements. I've no idea why it is not removed for export.

I wasn't having a go earlier. I should have been clearer that part of my thinking was that I'm not sure how many CB1100 ECUs Don Guhl gets to reflash every year. There've been a handful on the forum who've had it done, but I'd be surprised if the number was 20. So he may not have got his dough back, although, given he probably reflashes lots of other bikes' ECUs, the cost of the CB research would have been marginal.

Lord Popgun has a dooverlacky from Healtech that he can plug in and read stuff, but I don't know how much actual interaction he can have with the ECU. I'd be mildly interested in seeing if I could crack it, but I wouldn't know where to start. Perhaps somewhere in the bowels of the interwebs there's some bit of software that allows you to open up ECUs.

[Lord Popgun]

Guhl also removes or moves the rev limits and adjusts the fueling.

[Cormanus]

Lord Popgun, enquiring minds want to know—and you can tell us—how does he do it?