Bleeding brakes with ABS

[Houtman_imp]

j3gq , do you worry sometimes TOO much ?

[j3gq_imp]

"What I am."

j3gq , do you worry sometimes TOO much ?

That is one way to interpret my questions and reasoning. The truth however is, I don't worry at all. Why ? Because in the end, I do really understand what I am doing - and I like it that way. If the forum helps, fine. If it can't - that's fine too. I find another way. This is who I am. This way I end up with a lot of knowledge. Less is not enough ;=)

If I worried, I would sell the bike and take a taxi, make my wife do our taxes, and have a Honda dealer change my brake fluids. Now, read my by-line again. Thanks for all your good inputs!

[j3gq_imp]

What about service link, I sent you a little while ago??
Two hydraulic circuits for '14 CB:
front brakes = brake lever, LF caliper, then RF..to be technically correct
rear brakes - brake pedal.
I use vacuum or pressure type bleeders.

First, suck out all the brake (or clutch) fluid, fill up again with fresh DOT4, then start bleeding while watching and topping up reservoir.
When completed, fluid level should equel original reservoir level (assuming there are no external leaks).
At home, I use my vacuum bleeder but one can do bleeding without it = conventional method...by pumping lever or pedal...
If using either one, vacuum or pressure bleeders, I keep pumping brakes at the same time, done thousand brake/clutch flashes on cars and my bikes.

General info: After flushing brakes, I energize ABS pump and repeat bleeding process again to get rid of 99.99% old fluid.

You got me thinking about this part Peter, could be the wording of it but it suggests that there is an electrical way to operate the abs pump, i'm sure i read too much into it but could you clarify this?

And for others; the abs module is only an intervention in both break systems, normally similar to refreshing the fluid but more prone to air buildup in the lines due to the effect that unlike standard systems the air is not automatically able to rise through a passage at the highest point and escape into the fluid container but can build up in a high point in the brake lines.
The only way to clear this is a quick flush so the fluid is faster which expels the trapped air.

IMHO air bubbles in narrow, kinky lines like those in a brake system do not rise or move at all, due to gravity. They stick in corners, and slowly moving liquid can even pass around them without taking them along. In so far, the idea of quick(er) flushing may be right. But I have seen similar cases in lab equipment ( mostly transparent pipes) where even this doesn’t help - only high pressure or cycling pressure input gets them out. The ABS mod does certainly provide more / many traps for bubble. That is the concern underlying this thread.
The question remains, is a special procedure or special support equipment needed to bleed our brakes?

IMHO air bubbles in narrow, kinky lines like those in a brake system do not rise or move at all, due to gravity. They stick in corners, and slowly moving liquid can even pass around them without taking them along. In so far, the idea of quick(er) flushing may be right. But I have seen similar cases in lab equipment ( mostly transparent pipes) where even this doesn’t help - only high pressure or cycling pressure input gets them out. The ABS mod does certainly provide more / many traps for bubble. That is the concern underlying this thread.


The question remains, is a special procedure or special support equipment needed to bleed our brakes?
Peter's reply answers your question perfectly;

"At home, I use my vacuum bleeder but one can do bleeding without it = conventional method...by pumping lever or pedal..."

Searching "brake fluid" in this forum will provide you with 8 pages of good info past and present of member's experiences on this subject, provide answers to failing abs brakes, speed bleeders, vacuum systems and much more

Best way to find out is by doing what we are all doing and find out why we are recommending the same methods backed up by our own experiences and tools.

Please be patient with me, max.
I checked the search pages you mention, indeed 8 pages, but of the 8 pages coming up, not one provides an answer.
Peter's answer says how he "thinks to solves" the problem, it does not provide an explanation how and why it would work with any ABS module, or with our ABS module in particular.
Finally, the following link partially at least supports my concern that bleeding an ABS system isn't simple.

[url=http://https://autoguysland.com/how-to-bleed-air-from-abs-module//]how to bleed air from ... ABS

[peterbaron]

What about service link, I sent you a little while ago??
Two hydraulic circuits for '14 CB:
front brakes = brake lever, LF caliper, then RF..to be technically correct
rear brakes - brake pedal.
I use vacuum or pressure type bleeders.

First, suck out all the brake (or clutch) fluid, fill up again with fresh DOT4, then start bleeding while watching and topping up reservoir.
When completed, fluid level should equel original reservoir level (assuming there are no external leaks).
At home, I use my vacuum bleeder but one can do bleeding without it = conventional method...by pumping lever or pedal...
If using either one, vacuum or pressure bleeders, I keep pumping brakes at the same time, done thousand brake/clutch flashes on cars and my bikes.

General info: After flushing brakes, I energize ABS pump and repeat bleeding process again to get rid of 99.99% old fluid.

You got me thinking about this part Peter, could be the wording of it but it suggests that there is an electrical way to operate the abs pump, i'm sure i read too much into it but could you clarify this?

And for others; the abs module is only an intervention in both break systems, normally similar to refreshing the fluid but more prone to air buildup in the lines due to the effect that unlike standard systems the air is not automatically able to rise through a passage at the highest point and escape into the fluid container but can build up in a high point in the brake lines.
The only way to clear this is a quick flush so the fluid is faster which expels the trapped air.

You got me thinking about this part ....
Sorry about this confusion, but as indicated by General info, it does not specifically concern a CB, however I hope to communicate with 2017 CB & up models/OBDII equipped.

I use a Samsung Galaxy tablet with a special automotive program called GDS /Global Diagnostic System that through a VCI wirelessly communicates with all onboards modules (ECU, TCU, PCM, MDPS, ABS/ESC, SRS, SJB, BCM, 4WD, BSD...), all supported service data reader/or its graphics, DTCs. Can perform an ECU update as well.
It also has many more functions like...multimeter, scope, camera, smart and chip key coding, VIN reading & writing, programs & neutralizes immobiliser, TPMS with special adapter, performs flight recording...and special tests ...++ for specific make(s)
It will read OBDII data to other makes as well.
It can activate/input: an ABS pump for bleeding purpose and its functionality, a lot of electrical circuit like lights, horns, cluster, electronic components or devices.

As Max mentioned, for our ABS and pump activation, there is no simple answer as to how to do it.
I think, one has to build a device to trick an ABS module into thinking that a wheel is traveling at a certain speed and then input a lock up signal to either one of the WSS...to activate an ABS pump and bleed brake system, or perhaps there is some other, more simple solution??

Hera are a few pics of the said GDS











Edit: P.S. hope to guinea pig an AT and '17EX (both belong to friends )

[GoldOxide_imp]

What about service link, I sent you a little while ago??
Two hydraulic circuits for '14 CB:
front brakes = brake lever, LF caliper, then RF..to be technically correct
rear brakes - brake pedal.
I use vacuum or pressure type bleeders.

First, suck out all the brake (or clutch) fluid, fill up again with fresh DOT4, then start bleeding while watching and topping up reservoir.
When completed, fluid level should equel original reservoir level (assuming there are no external leaks).
At home, I use my vacuum bleeder but one can do bleeding without it = conventional method...by pumping lever or pedal...
If using either one, vacuum or pressure bleeders, I keep pumping brakes at the same time, done thousand brake/clutch flashes on cars and my bikes.

General info: After flushing brakes, I energize ABS pump and repeat bleeding process again to get rid of 99.99% old fluid.

You got me thinking about this part Peter, could be the wording of it but it suggests that there is an electrical way to operate the abs pump, i'm sure i read too much into it but could you clarify this?

And for others; the abs module is only an intervention in both break systems, normally similar to refreshing the fluid but more prone to air buildup in the lines due to the effect that unlike standard systems the air is not automatically able to rise through a passage at the highest point and escape into the fluid container but can build up in a high point in the brake lines.
The only way to clear this is a quick flush so the fluid is faster which expels the trapped air.

You got me thinking about this part ....
Sorry about this confusion, but as indicated by General info, it does not specifically concern a CB, however I hope to communicate with 2017 CB & up models/OBDII equipped.

I use a Samsung Galaxy tablet with a special automotive program called GDS /Global Diagnostic System that through a VCI wirelessly communicates with all onboards modules (ECU, TCU, PCM, MDPS, ABS/ESC, SRS, SJB, BCM, 4WD, BSD...), all supported service data reader/or its graphics, DTCs. Can perform an ECU update as well.
It also has many more functions like...multimeter, scope, camera, smart and chip key coding, VIN reading & writing, programs & neutralizes immobiliser, TPMS with special adapter, performs flight recording...and special tests ...++ for specific make(s)
It will read OBDII data to other makes as well.
It can activate/input: an ABS pump for bleeding purpose and its functionality, a lot of electrical circuit like lights, horns, cluster, electronic components or devices.

As Max mentioned, for our ABS and pump activation, there is no simple answer as to how to do it.
I think, one has to build a device to trick an ABS module into thinking that a wheel is traveling at a certain speed and then input a lock up signal to either one of the WSS...to activate an ABS pump and bleed brake system, or perhaps there is some other, more simple solution??

Hera are a few pics of the said GDS











Edit: P.S. hope to guinea pig an AT and '17EX (both belong to friends )

Hmm, pig test an AT worries me.

[Lord Popgun]

Loves me some pig!

[GoldOxide_imp]

Loves me some pig!

[Nachodaddy]

At this point I am so happy to be the guy withOUT ABS.

[peterbaron]

Loves me some pig!

...what ?....

[max]

Peter thanks for the explanation and the effort to take pictures etc.
For some reason this automotive diagnostic stuff has caught my attention and i can follow most of the methods, tools and engineering that goes into finding out why the car won't start at all if the engine temp sensor is defect, even in the middle of a snow storm, it just won't.

This new field is very fascinating and rewarding in more ways than one and it takes a lot of experience to be successful at it and it's a moving target as far as i understand.

So i've build a simple automotive scope which also runs on an android tablet ( thanks for the info, i found it's Hyundai proprietary software and very helpful ) and putz around with it to find out for myself about pulses, timing and wave forms, very nice to play with these things, all i need now is an unreliable vehicle to repair.......not easy with Honda's you know!

Cheers as always