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I'm thinking that I also have an ECU issue.
Has anyone here figured out the "regular" idle in gear, and while letting out the clutch, the revs rise in a sort of linear fashion with the release? I hadn't looked into that aspect of the problem yet, as I was hoping I wouldn't need to, and the only thing that I'm aware of that would communicate with the bike would be the clutch switch, but that should only be on/off.
As much as I dislike talking to the dealer, I suppose I should contact a few of them to look into this software patch.
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(05-17-2022, 08:30 PM)whizzle_dizzler_imp Wrote: I'm thinking that I also have an ECU issue.
Has anyone here figured out the "regular" idle in gear, and while letting out the clutch, the revs rise in a sort of linear fashion with the release? I hadn't looked into that aspect of the problem yet, as I was hoping I wouldn't need to, and the only thing that I'm aware of that would communicate with the bike would be the clutch switch, but that should only be on/off.
As much as I dislike talking to the dealer, I suppose I should contact a few of them to look into this software patch.
I only saw that behaviour - and only a couple of times - when riding with a "cold" engine at around -20C in winter. It took about five to ten minutes to go away and after the engine could reach operating temperature. This was the exception, not typical.
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(05-17-2022, 12:23 PM)max_imp Wrote: As you may have read some lucky members have permanently fixed their issue with a software update, not possible in the us, e.p.a. is a scary thing so the dealers are not prepared to risk their business i believe.
Every single cb with this issue ( mostly the 2014 models ) started good as gold but something changed over time and we never saw any wear or dirt in the valve body, so what gives?
And i don't know of any member who did not have success with a new iacv, to me it is the lack of control from the ecu,
( hence the software " update " ) i think the older iacv's permanent magnets have degraded to the point where they no longer control the iacv correctly.
A lot of times this has happened after the engine has been very warm, permanent magnets lose magnetism if the temperature rises, the iacv is in a hot place and that is why i have come to this conclusion.
You may be in a unique position to evaluate the " magnetic torque " difference between an old and a new one firsthand.........
Haya Doc.
Hiya, Max!
Glad you responded.
Sold my 2022 Triumph Street Twin after 10K miles in 10 months.
Looking for another XT250: Easy to work on with a grandson and he then can inherit.
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The clutch switch is connected to the ecu and has a sort of " takeoff assist " function when the clutch is released, it is also hard-wired to the starting curcuit to bypass the neutral switch so the engine can be started with the clutch pulled in and side stand up.
To date i have not seen an ecu which has changed behavior spontaneously like you suggest, sometimes an in-or output channel may be damaged by a fault induced by an operator but in general they are well padded from damage by design in their normal environment.
In the past i have tried to locate the name ( number ) of the patch but without success so i can't help you there.
The fact that the cb1000rr iacv did not have the desired result supports the heat related degradation theory.
The iacv is constantly at work in the engine supported by the software behavior, first when the engine initialises at key-on when the meters sweep the iacv is opened up fully to the end-of -travel ( which is why there is a spring on the piston ) so the ecu now knows it's position and then closes a number of steps depending on the engine temperature to settle on 1500 rpm and gradually slow down to 1050 rpm with a warmed up engine, and also when the throttle is used, when the clutch is pulled in etc, so it works constantly to adjust idle speed.
If you switch the ignition key on and immediately start the engine during the initialization cycle it revs faster ( because it is close to the open-end-of-travel ) and quickly settles at the desired revs at the time.
it receives a small number of pulses from the ecu, i think the length ( duty cycle ) of these pulses is smaller in the 2014 models but initially just big enough to operate the iacv correctly but after the iacv has been heated up and loses magnetism they are no longer able to control the iacv as normal.
The software changes ( increases ) the available pulse width to match the other model's cb1100 and so restores control of the iacv i think.
Having said all that it would be a really nice situation if the patch was available because it would save a lot of work, so best of luck with the endeavor.
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(05-17-2022, 05:42 PM)Enzofour_imp Wrote: When I replaced the IACV, a few days later the dealer installed a software patch that he had received from Honda in 2014 to fix the low or high rpm ramdom problems.
I haven't had any issues to date, but I can't guarantee if the solution was the IACV replacement or the patch or both.
Do you think you could ask your dealer if they had a number on that software patch? I just got off the phone with my local service department. They looked up the VIN, but didn't come up with any service bulletins regarding the idle issues. I'm planning on heading to the dealer this Saturday so they can hook it up to their diag tools, so hopefully I can get some more information to get this (and everyone's bike) sorted.
(05-17-2022, 09:36 PM)GoldOxide_imp Wrote: (05-17-2022, 08:30 PM)whizzle_dizzler_imp Wrote: I'm thinking that I also have an ECU issue.
Has anyone here figured out the "regular" idle in gear, and while letting out the clutch, the revs rise in a sort of linear fashion with the release? I hadn't looked into that aspect of the problem yet, as I was hoping I wouldn't need to, and the only thing that I'm aware of that would communicate with the bike would be the clutch switch, but that should only be on/off.
As much as I dislike talking to the dealer, I suppose I should contact a few of them to look into this software patch.
I only saw that behaviour - and only a couple of times - when riding with a "cold" engine at around -20C in winter. It took about five to ten minutes to go away and after the engine could reach operating temperature. This was the exception, not typical.
Since I ride all year round, I've had experienced almost everyday of commuting in a year from 14*F - 100*F, and my bike's issue is very consistent. It may ride and idle fine for a few minutes, but no matter what day, the problem will still show its ugly face. The only thing symptom that hasn't yet appeared this season, is the idle rpm hasn't started dropping while sitting in traffic like it's about to die.
(05-18-2022, 02:33 AM)max_imp Wrote: The clutch switch is connected to the ecu and has a sort of " takeoff assist " function when the clutch is released, it is also hard-wired to the starting curcuit to bypass the neutral switch so the engine can be started with the clutch pulled in and side stand up.
To date i have not seen an ecu which has changed behavior spontaneously like you suggest, sometimes an in-or output channel may be damaged by a fault induced by an operator but in general they are well padded from damage by design in their normal environment.
In the past i have tried to locate the name ( number ) of the patch but without success so i can't help you there.
The fact that the cb1000rr iacv did not have the desired result supports the heat related degradation theory.
The iacv is constantly at work in the engine supported by the software behavior, first when the engine initialises at key-on when the meters sweep the iacv is opened up fully to the end-of -travel ( which is why there is a spring on the piston ) so the ecu now knows it's position and then closes a number of steps depending on the engine temperature to settle on 1500 rpm and gradually slow down to 1050 rpm with a warmed up engine, and also when the throttle is used, when the clutch is pulled in etc, so it works constantly to adjust idle speed.
If you switch the ignition key on and immediately start the engine during the initialization cycle it revs faster ( because it is close to the open-end-of-travel ) and quickly settles at the desired revs at the time.
it receives a small number of pulses from the ecu, i think the length ( duty cycle ) of these pulses is smaller in the 2014 models but initially just big enough to operate the iacv correctly but after the iacv has been heated up and loses magnetism they are no longer able to control the iacv as normal.
The software changes ( increases ) the available pulse width to match the other model's cb1100 and so restores control of the iacv i think.
Having said all that it would be a really nice situation if the patch was available because it would save a lot of work, so best of luck with the endeavor.
That "takeoff assist" is annoying, and with the extra high idle issue, it can be somewhat unsafe during low speed maneuvers as it jumps up to 2k sometimes. I would prefer to remove that function completely.
Yep, hopefully we can get some more info from Enzo if his dealer gives him the software patch #
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(05-18-2022, 05:35 AM)whizzle_dizzler_imp Wrote: (05-17-2022, 05:42 PM)Enzofour_imp Wrote: When I replaced the IACV, a few days later the dealer installed a software patch that he had received from Honda in 2014 to fix the low or high rpm ramdom problems.
I haven't had any issues to date, but I can't guarantee if the solution was the IACV replacement or the patch or both.
Do you think you could ask your dealer if they had a number on that software patch? I just got off the phone with my local service department. They looked up the VIN, but didn't come up with any service bulletins regarding the idle issues. I'm planning on heading to the dealer this Saturday so they can hook it up to their diag tools, so hopefully I can get some more information to get this (and everyone's bike) sorted.
(05-17-2022, 09:36 PM)GoldOxide_imp Wrote: (05-17-2022, 08:30 PM)whizzle_dizzler_imp Wrote: I'm thinking that I also have an ECU issue.
Has anyone here figured out the "regular" idle in gear, and while letting out the clutch, the revs rise in a sort of linear fashion with the release? I hadn't looked into that aspect of the problem yet, as I was hoping I wouldn't need to, and the only thing that I'm aware of that would communicate with the bike would be the clutch switch, but that should only be on/off.
As much as I dislike talking to the dealer, I suppose I should contact a few of them to look into this software patch.
I only saw that behaviour - and only a couple of times - when riding with a "cold" engine at around -20C in winter. It took about five to ten minutes to go away and after the engine could reach operating temperature. This was the exception, not typical.
Since I ride all year round, I've had experienced almost everyday of commuting in a year from 14*F - 100*F, and my bike's issue is very consistent. It may ride and idle fine for a few minutes, but no matter what day, the problem will still show its ugly face. The only thing symptom that hasn't yet appeared this season, is the idle rpm hasn't started dropping while sitting in traffic like it's about to die.
(05-18-2022, 02:33 AM)max_imp Wrote: The clutch switch is connected to the ecu and has a sort of " takeoff assist " function when the clutch is released, it is also hard-wired to the starting curcuit to bypass the neutral switch so the engine can be started with the clutch pulled in and side stand up.
To date i have not seen an ecu which has changed behavior spontaneously like you suggest, sometimes an in-or output channel may be damaged by a fault induced by an operator but in general they are well padded from damage by design in their normal environment.
In the past i have tried to locate the name ( number ) of the patch but without success so i can't help you there.
The fact that the cb1000rr iacv did not have the desired result supports the heat related degradation theory.
The iacv is constantly at work in the engine supported by the software behavior, first when the engine initialises at key-on when the meters sweep the iacv is opened up fully to the end-of -travel ( which is why there is a spring on the piston ) so the ecu now knows it's position and then closes a number of steps depending on the engine temperature to settle on 1500 rpm and gradually slow down to 1050 rpm with a warmed up engine, and also when the throttle is used, when the clutch is pulled in etc, so it works constantly to adjust idle speed.
If you switch the ignition key on and immediately start the engine during the initialization cycle it revs faster ( because it is close to the open-end-of-travel ) and quickly settles at the desired revs at the time.
it receives a small number of pulses from the ecu, i think the length ( duty cycle ) of these pulses is smaller in the 2014 models but initially just big enough to operate the iacv correctly but after the iacv has been heated up and loses magnetism they are no longer able to control the iacv as normal.
The software changes ( increases ) the available pulse width to match the other model's cb1100 and so restores control of the iacv i think.
Having said all that it would be a really nice situation if the patch was available because it would save a lot of work, so best of luck with the endeavor.
That "takeoff assist" is annoying, and with the extra high idle issue, it can be somewhat unsafe during low speed maneuvers as it jumps up to 2k sometimes. I would prefer to remove that function completely.
Yep, hopefully we can get some more info from Enzo if his dealer gives him the software patch #
The part #s for the ECU on both the 13/14 itself has been updated / changed- so there has to be a reason.
Note- that the 13 & 14 have different part #'s from each other- and I remember reading the engineer articles from Honda where they mentioned different programming on the '14 for the new 6-speed.
I think they will still swap with each other and run...just guessing, but no, they aren't identical.
Updated 13- https://www.babbittsonline.com/oemparts/...gm-fi-unit
Updated 14- https://www.babbittsonline.com/oemparts/...gm-fi-unit
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(05-18-2022, 05:35 AM)whizzle_dizzler_imp Wrote: (05-17-2022, 05:42 PM)Enzofour_imp Wrote: When I replaced the IACV, a few days later the dealer installed a software patch that he had received from Honda in 2014 to fix the low or high rpm ramdom problems.
I haven't had any issues to date, but I can't guarantee if the solution was the IACV replacement or the patch or both.
Do you think you could ask your dealer if they had a number on that software patch? I just got off the phone with my local service department. They looked up the VIN, but didn't come up with any service bulletins regarding the idle issues. I'm planning on heading to the dealer this Saturday so they can hook it up to their diag tools, so hopefully I can get some more information to get this (and everyone's bike) sorted.
(05-17-2022, 09:36 PM)GoldOxide_imp Wrote: (05-17-2022, 08:30 PM)whizzle_dizzler_imp Wrote: I'm thinking that I also have an ECU issue.
Has anyone here figured out the "regular" idle in gear, and while letting out the clutch, the revs rise in a sort of linear fashion with the release? I hadn't looked into that aspect of the problem yet, as I was hoping I wouldn't need to, and the only thing that I'm aware of that would communicate with the bike would be the clutch switch, but that should only be on/off.
As much as I dislike talking to the dealer, I suppose I should contact a few of them to look into this software patch.
I only saw that behaviour - and only a couple of times - when riding with a "cold" engine at around -20C in winter. It took about five to ten minutes to go away and after the engine could reach operating temperature. This was the exception, not typical.
Since I ride all year round, I've had experienced almost everyday of commuting in a year from 14*F - 100*F, and my bike's issue is very consistent. It may ride and idle fine for a few minutes, but no matter what day, the problem will still show its ugly face. The only thing symptom that hasn't yet appeared this season, is the idle rpm hasn't started dropping while sitting in traffic like it's about to die.
(05-18-2022, 02:33 AM)max_imp Wrote: The clutch switch is connected to the ecu and has a sort of " takeoff assist " function when the clutch is released, it is also hard-wired to the starting curcuit to bypass the neutral switch so the engine can be started with the clutch pulled in and side stand up.
To date i have not seen an ecu which has changed behavior spontaneously like you suggest, sometimes an in-or output channel may be damaged by a fault induced by an operator but in general they are well padded from damage by design in their normal environment.
In the past i have tried to locate the name ( number ) of the patch but without success so i can't help you there.
The fact that the cb1000rr iacv did not have the desired result supports the heat related degradation theory.
The iacv is constantly at work in the engine supported by the software behavior, first when the engine initialises at key-on when the meters sweep the iacv is opened up fully to the end-of -travel ( which is why there is a spring on the piston ) so the ecu now knows it's position and then closes a number of steps depending on the engine temperature to settle on 1500 rpm and gradually slow down to 1050 rpm with a warmed up engine, and also when the throttle is used, when the clutch is pulled in etc, so it works constantly to adjust idle speed.
If you switch the ignition key on and immediately start the engine during the initialization cycle it revs faster ( because it is close to the open-end-of-travel ) and quickly settles at the desired revs at the time.
it receives a small number of pulses from the ecu, i think the length ( duty cycle ) of these pulses is smaller in the 2014 models but initially just big enough to operate the iacv correctly but after the iacv has been heated up and loses magnetism they are no longer able to control the iacv as normal.
The software changes ( increases ) the available pulse width to match the other model's cb1100 and so restores control of the iacv i think.
Having said all that it would be a really nice situation if the patch was available because it would save a lot of work, so best of luck with the endeavor.
That "takeoff assist" is annoying, and with the extra high idle issue, it can be somewhat unsafe during low speed maneuvers as it jumps up to 2k sometimes. I would prefer to remove that function completely.
Yep, hopefully we can get some more info from Enzo if his dealer gives him the software patch #
Do you think you could ask your dealer if they had a number on that software patch? I just got off the phone with my local service department. They looked up the VIN, but didn't come up with any service bulletins regarding the idle issues. I'm planning on heading to the dealer this Saturday so they can hook it up to their diag tools, so hopefully I can get some more information to get this (and everyone's bike) sorted.
I'm sorry, I had already asked when he installed the patch for me, but he refused.
However he gave me both the IACV and installed the patch under warranty, so I didn't insist. 
(05-17-2022, 09:36 PM)GoldOxide_imp Wrote: (05-17-2022, 08:30 PM)whizzle_dizzler_imp Wrote: I'm thinking that I also have an ECU issue.
Has anyone here figured out the "regular" idle in gear, and while letting out the clutch, the revs rise in a sort of linear fashion with the release? I hadn't looked into that aspect of the problem yet, as I was hoping I wouldn't need to, and the only thing that I'm aware of that would communicate with the bike would be the clutch switch, but that should only be on/off.
As much as I dislike talking to the dealer, I suppose I should contact a few of them to look into this software patch.
I only saw that behaviour - and only a couple of times - when riding with a "cold" engine at around -20C in winter. It took about five to ten minutes to go away and after the engine could reach operating temperature. This was the exception, not typical.
Since I ride all year round, I've had experienced almost everyday of commuting in a year from 14*F - 100*F, and my bike's issue is very consistent. It may ride and idle fine for a few minutes, but no matter what day, the problem will still show its ugly face. The only thing symptom that hasn't yet appeared this season, is the idle rpm hasn't started dropping while sitting in traffic like it's about to die.
(05-18-2022, 02:33 AM)max_imp Wrote: The clutch switch is connected to the ecu and has a sort of " takeoff assist " function when the clutch is released, it is also hard-wired to the starting curcuit to bypass the neutral switch so the engine can be started with the clutch pulled in and side stand up.
To date i have not seen an ecu which has changed behavior spontaneously like you suggest, sometimes an in-or output channel may be damaged by a fault induced by an operator but in general they are well padded from damage by design in their normal environment.
In the past i have tried to locate the name ( number ) of the patch but without success so i can't help you there.
The fact that the cb1000rr iacv did not have the desired result supports the heat related degradation theory.
The iacv is constantly at work in the engine supported by the software behavior, first when the engine initialises at key-on when the meters sweep the iacv is opened up fully to the end-of -travel ( which is why there is a spring on the piston ) so the ecu now knows it's position and then closes a number of steps depending on the engine temperature to settle on 1500 rpm and gradually slow down to 1050 rpm with a warmed up engine, and also when the throttle is used, when the clutch is pulled in etc, so it works constantly to adjust idle speed.
If you switch the ignition key on and immediately start the engine during the initialization cycle it revs faster ( because it is close to the open-end-of-travel ) and quickly settles at the desired revs at the time.
it receives a small number of pulses from the ecu, i think the length ( duty cycle ) of these pulses is smaller in the 2014 models but initially just big enough to operate the iacv correctly but after the iacv has been heated up and loses magnetism they are no longer able to control the iacv as normal.
The software changes ( increases ) the available pulse width to match the other model's cb1100 and so restores control of the iacv i think.
Having said all that it would be a really nice situation if the patch was available because it would save a lot of work, so best of luck with the endeavor.
That "takeoff assist" is annoying, and with the extra high idle issue, it can be somewhat unsafe during low speed maneuvers as it jumps up to 2k sometimes. I would prefer to remove that function completely.
Yep, hopefully we can get some more info from Enzo if his dealer gives him the software patch #
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(05-17-2022, 12:23 PM)max_imp Wrote: As you may have read some lucky members have permanently fixed their issue with a software update, not possible in the us, e.p.a. is a scary thing so the dealers are not prepared to risk their business i believe.
Every single cb with this issue ( mostly the 2014 models ) started good as gold but something changed over time and we never saw any wear or dirt in the valve body, so what gives?
And i don't know of any member who did not have success with a new iacv, to me it is the lack of control from the ecu,
( hence the software " update " ) i think the older iacv's permanent magnets have degraded to the point where they no longer control the iacv correctly.
A lot of times this has happened after the engine has been very warm, permanent magnets lose magnetism if the temperature rises, the iacv is in a hot place and that is why i have come to this conclusion.
You may be in a unique position to evaluate the " magnetic torque " difference between an old and a new one firsthand.........
Haya Doc.
Max, your permanent magnet degradation theory is quite plausible.
Perhaps an ECU program compensates for a failing IACV, but that may be just postponing an issue.
The below summary is from post 103, as linked in post 1299 and has been edited only slightly in that debris hindering operation or warpage does not seem to be an issue.
It does not seem to be a MAP issue, due to symptoms not matching.
It does not seem to be an EOT issue, per reports in this thread and symptoms not matching
It does not seem to be a TPS issue, due to the recent testing guided by Max. There may have been one or two TPS issues, but not for Dave.
Manual pages 5-74 and 5-75 cover IACV (symptoms seem to match): One check is to listen for the sound of it cycling with key on and stop/run on. There is a caution about cleaning before removal to prevent debris in the IACV passage...therefore, any debris would be a concern to proper operation.
Note the symptoms/fail safe function of all DTC on pages 5-15 and 5-16 of FSM.
In the b&w photo at the bottom of page 5-74, it is not sufficient quality to see any air ports to the sides of the passage. If IACV replaced, without cleaning, an IACV issue may remain.
The IACV is 16430-MJF-D01 (later model 16431-MJF-D01), but Dave successfully used 16430-MJF-D01
The IACV can be tested, per the factory service manual:
IACV testing, per FSM 15-41 & 15-42:
Note: These tests may be done with IACV mounted, by lifting rear of fuel tank and removing right side throttle body cover.
1. After clearing stored DTC, per page 5-14, recheck for stored DTC 29-1. If none, then prior DTC was intermittent.
2. Measure resistance of each of the four wires at the ICAV connector (disconnected, harness side, not IACV side). Continuity to ground should be infinity. If not, the wiring harness has a short to ground.
3. Check continuity to ECM, from disconnected ECM 33 pin to disconnected IACV 4 pin connector
Positions are numbered with locking tab up:
ECM A6 black/yellow to IACV connector postion 1 (left)
A17 black/red, position 2
A16 black/blue, position 3
A7 black/orange, position 4 (right)
4. Measure IACV resistance, (IACV side, disconnected), facing with locking tab up at airbox side (mirror image of connector):
position 4 black/yellow (right)
position 3, black/red
position 2, black/blue
position 1, black orange (left)
a. black/yellow to black orange (2 outside positions), 99-121 ohms at 77F/25C
b. black/red to black/blue (2 inside positions), 99-121 ohms at 77F/25C
If resistance out of spec, FSM declares IACV faulty
My 2 cents: If IACV and wiring tests good, then if symptoms continue to point to IACV, it may be a piston travel issue or air port issue.
Summary, to date:
Max started a very comprehensive thread on the IACV.
http://cb1100forum.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=12203
Post 9, Feb 19:
vacuum loss (minor = high idle, major = close to stalling/stalling)
TPS (FSM symptom/fail safe: hard to start cold)
IACV (FSM symptom/fail safe: engine stalls, hard to start, rough idle
EOT (FSM symptom/fail safe: poor acceleration)
DTC 29-1, FSM page 5-16, lists IACV circuit malfunction as "loose or poor contact of IACV connector, IACV or its circuit malfunction".
Otherwise, per the FSM, other sensors failsafe is normal engine operation, this includes MAP, IAT and O2. There is no mass flow sensor or exhaust temp sensor on the CB1100.
The FSM incudes all sensors on pages 5-15 and 5-16.
Symptoms reported are classic for IACV.
The piston not moving as much as the stepper steps will not provide a DTC and this may be more likely than any other aspect of the IACV operation.
Post 11:
Just glancing at pages 5-15 and 5-16 shows how well the CB1100 will continue to perform with many sensor codes.
If the EOT is wonky, the only issue is hard starting cold.
If the IAT is wonky, default is 95 F.
If TPS is wonky, default is 0 degrees position
If an O2 sensor is wonky, "engine operates normally"
However, if a fuel injector faults, it is time to push: Engine does not start, injector power, pump and ignition shut down in the event of "loose or poor contact of the fuel injector connector-fuel injector or its circuit malfunction"...fail-safe is not just complete failure...it is out of spec parameters.
Post 16:
The "advantage" of purchasing the entire throttle body assembly is that the IACV port would be clean, not warped, with new IACV and new TPS.
...hearing the IACV cycling indicates that the stepper motor is stepping or trying to step, so, it may not sound much different. The ECM has no feed-back regarding actual movement.
Whiszzle, pls be sure to review Max's IACV link:
http://cb1100forum.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=12203
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That, at least few decades old, stepper motor design should be scraped long time ago and replaced but much modern “rotary” idle solenoid or similar ..perhaps they have to trim the cost everywhere to develop our beautiful CB???
Cars had lots of problems with steppers…and most went for a better design.
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Designers were probably limited by stepper control management technology implementations of the era.
Servo and stepper motor firmware and hardware is much better in the past 10 years and likely did not make it into Honda engineering at the time.
Implementations seem very serious in the recent incarnations of Honda DCT components today.
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