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That had to be awesome Cormanus.
Despite my rant above about chains and shafts, in choosing between the boxer with shaft and the CB with chain, I would choose the CB every time (and I did...twice).
However if Honda came out with a shaft drive version of the 1100 DLX... all bets are off lol
if it had shaft AND hydraulic valves I'm afraid there would be little holding me back.
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(08-10-2017, 05:59 AM)The ferret_imp Wrote: (08-10-2017, 03:00 AM)rotor_imp Wrote: There is not much to compare, IMHO.
The only similarity is the styling. But the substantial differences are so great that I just don't see how one would not have a clear preference for one or the other, based on:
2-cylinder vs. 4 cylinder engine.
Shaft drive vs. chain.
(I would not consider a motorcycle with less than 4 cylinders. And I find the reliability, effectiveness and cost of chain to be superior to shaft, and I consider oiling the chain to be an entirely enjoyable activity. But that's me; others will have different opinion).
BTW, whats with the R-9-T's exhaust on the wrong (left-hand) side of the motorcycle? Sure, one does not need to deal with chain next to a hot pipe, but still; each time I look at one, I have a feeling I'm looking at a mirror-image...
Yea, I have a different opinion lol. Care if I express it?
Don't enjoy maintaining chains and the reliability, cleanliness, and cost of maintaining the shaft is nearly nothing compared to a chain. I own both. Both Hondas.
My shaft drive Honda has 94K miles on it, has only required 5.2oz of 80 wt gear oil once a year which takes 5 minutes to change. Other than that nada.. no cleaning, no adjustment, no replacement. Maybe smear some moly lube on the drive gear when you have the wheel off to replace the back tire. Probably the most famous shaft drive bike, the Honda Goldwing has a tremendous reliability record for their shaft drive systems over billions of miles over the last 47 years. BMW, and Moto Guzzi have had pretty good success with theirs over the years as well. BMW had some final drive issues when they tried to go to final drives that required no maintenance at all, but overall they have had an outstanding reliability record since 1923, and Guzzi since the 60's.
My chain drive Honda has 35K miles (1/3 the mileage), needs a new chain and sprockets ($400 plus labor) and has gone thru probably 4 cans of chain lube at $15.99 each (that's not supposed to fling off and get the back wheel, swing arm, and center stand grungy but it does anyway) and requires periodic inspection/adjustments. Most people get between 20K and 25K out of a chain and sprockets. At 94K I will be ready for my 4th set of chain and sprockets on it.
A chain is "slightly" more efficient when new and lubed and adjusted properly. If it's dry, if it has tight spots, if it is out of a narrow adjustment band ie: too tight or too loose, then it's efficiency is reduced. It is lighter, cheaper to produce and does allow for gearing changes, which makes them better for manufacturers,racers or riders who do not put on a lot of miles on their bikes.
A shaft has the same efficiency it's whole life, which is normally a considerable amount of time. It is heavier, more costly to manufacture and impossible to re-gear however. Now, generally speaking, only top of the line touring bikes get shaft drive systems meant for riders who will pay the premium and expect to put on a lot of miles on their bikes.
IMO a belt is superior to a chain, but not as good as a shaft, for street driven motorcycles.
If chains were superior drive systems they would have them on cars, but none of them do. Honda DID have a chain drive sports car called the S600 back in 1964, 65 and 66,(only sold in Japan I believe) but they soon switched to shaft drive like everyone else.
Yea, I have a different opinion lol. Care if I express it?
Don't enjoy maintaining chains...
I'll be short: he who does not find pleasure in the act of lubricating the critical component before the ride... (heck, I better stop right here).
(08-10-2017, 05:59 AM)The ferret_imp Wrote: (08-10-2017, 03:00 AM)rotor_imp Wrote: There is not much to compare, IMHO.
The only similarity is the styling. But the substantial differences are so great that I just don't see how one would not have a clear preference for one or the other, based on:
2-cylinder vs. 4 cylinder engine.
Shaft drive vs. chain.
(I would not consider a motorcycle with less than 4 cylinders. And I find the reliability, effectiveness and cost of chain to be superior to shaft, and I consider oiling the chain to be an entirely enjoyable activity. But that's me; others will have different opinion).
BTW, whats with the R-9-T's exhaust on the wrong (left-hand) side of the motorcycle? Sure, one does not need to deal with chain next to a hot pipe, but still; each time I look at one, I have a feeling I'm looking at a mirror-image...
Yea, I have a different opinion lol. Care if I express it?
Don't enjoy maintaining chains and the reliability, cleanliness, and cost of maintaining the shaft is nearly nothing compared to a chain. I own both. Both Hondas.
My shaft drive Honda has 94K miles on it, has only required 5.2oz of 80 wt gear oil once a year which takes 5 minutes to change. Other than that nada.. no cleaning, no adjustment, no replacement. Maybe smear some moly lube on the drive gear when you have the wheel off to replace the back tire. Probably the most famous shaft drive bike, the Honda Goldwing has a tremendous reliability record for their shaft drive systems over billions of miles over the last 47 years. BMW, and Moto Guzzi have had pretty good success with theirs over the years as well. BMW had some final drive issues when they tried to go to final drives that required no maintenance at all, but overall they have had an outstanding reliability record since 1923, and Guzzi since the 60's.
My chain drive Honda has 35K miles (1/3 the mileage), needs a new chain and sprockets ($400 plus labor) and has gone thru probably 4 cans of chain lube at $15.99 each (that's not supposed to fling off and get the back wheel, swing arm, and center stand grungy but it does anyway) and requires periodic inspection/adjustments. Most people get between 20K and 25K out of a chain and sprockets. At 94K I will be ready for my 4th set of chain and sprockets on it.
A chain is "slightly" more efficient when new and lubed and adjusted properly. If it's dry, if it has tight spots, if it is out of a narrow adjustment band ie: too tight or too loose, then it's efficiency is reduced. It is lighter, cheaper to produce and does allow for gearing changes, which makes them better for manufacturers,racers or riders who do not put on a lot of miles on their bikes.
A shaft has the same efficiency it's whole life, which is normally a considerable amount of time. It is heavier, more costly to manufacture and impossible to re-gear however. Now, generally speaking, only top of the line touring bikes get shaft drive systems meant for riders who will pay the premium and expect to put on a lot of miles on their bikes.
IMO a belt is superior to a chain, but not as good as a shaft, for street driven motorcycles.
If chains were superior drive systems they would have them on cars, but none of them do. Honda DID have a chain drive sports car called the S600 back in 1964, 65 and 66,(only sold in Japan I believe) but they soon switched to shaft drive like everyone else.
I have a chain bike with 45K kilometers with both the chain and the sprocket (rear, I didn't look at the front in a while) is in "as new" condition. (My CB1100 has not enough kilometers yet to comment on).
I would never tell others how to lube their chains, but I have a 1 litre container of W80 gear oil, from which I occasionally re-fill a a small, narrow plastic bottle that I keep under the seat, together with a 5 mm flat brush. At every second or third fuel fill I dunk the brush in oil and brush the oil on the upper side of the exposed lower third of the chain length. I do not move the bike to get to the whole length of the chain, I count on the law of averages to ensure every 1000 km every single link of chain gets some love. For all practical purposes the cost is only my time when I stop for fuel anyways - that 1 liter W80 gear oil container was purchased long time ago and it is still one third full. Also, there is no room for the chain lube spray can on the bike, especially while on a trip.
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Cycle-ergo shows me sitting with a 9 degree forward lean on the CB1100 and also for the Nighthawk 750 and both of these bikes were comfortable as far as lean was concerned. It shows an 18 degree lean for me on the R nine T. I just wonder how comfortable that would be for an older rider.
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(08-10-2017, 06:53 AM)postoak_imp Wrote: Cycle-ergo shows me sitting with a 9 degree forward lean on the CB1100 and also for the Nighthawk 750 and both of these bikes were comfortable as far as lean was concerned. It shows an 18 degree lean for me on the R nine T. I just wonder how comfortable that would be for an older rider.
Probably why the rider/writer equated riding the CB1100 with riding a cruiser in terms of comfort and seating position... though I appreciate him distinguishing that it's still plenty peppy and good in corners vs. a La-Z-Boy or sofa on two wheels.
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(08-10-2017, 06:21 AM)rotor_imp Wrote: (08-10-2017, 05:59 AM)The ferret_imp Wrote: (08-10-2017, 03:00 AM)rotor_imp Wrote: There is not much to compare, IMHO.
The only similarity is the styling. But the substantial differences are so great that I just don't see how one would not have a clear preference for one or the other, based on:
2-cylinder vs. 4 cylinder engine.
Shaft drive vs. chain.
(I would not consider a motorcycle with less than 4 cylinders. And I find the reliability, effectiveness and cost of chain to be superior to shaft, and I consider oiling the chain to be an entirely enjoyable activity. But that's me; others will have different opinion).
BTW, whats with the R-9-T's exhaust on the wrong (left-hand) side of the motorcycle? Sure, one does not need to deal with chain next to a hot pipe, but still; each time I look at one, I have a feeling I'm looking at a mirror-image...
Yea, I have a different opinion lol. Care if I express it?
Don't enjoy maintaining chains and the reliability, cleanliness, and cost of maintaining the shaft is nearly nothing compared to a chain. I own both. Both Hondas.
My shaft drive Honda has 94K miles on it, has only required 5.2oz of 80 wt gear oil once a year which takes 5 minutes to change. Other than that nada.. no cleaning, no adjustment, no replacement. Maybe smear some moly lube on the drive gear when you have the wheel off to replace the back tire. Probably the most famous shaft drive bike, the Honda Goldwing has a tremendous reliability record for their shaft drive systems over billions of miles over the last 47 years. BMW, and Moto Guzzi have had pretty good success with theirs over the years as well. BMW had some final drive issues when they tried to go to final drives that required no maintenance at all, but overall they have had an outstanding reliability record since 1923, and Guzzi since the 60's.
My chain drive Honda has 35K miles (1/3 the mileage), needs a new chain and sprockets ($400 plus labor) and has gone thru probably 4 cans of chain lube at $15.99 each (that's not supposed to fling off and get the back wheel, swing arm, and center stand grungy but it does anyway) and requires periodic inspection/adjustments. Most people get between 20K and 25K out of a chain and sprockets. At 94K I will be ready for my 4th set of chain and sprockets on it.
A chain is "slightly" more efficient when new and lubed and adjusted properly. If it's dry, if it has tight spots, if it is out of a narrow adjustment band ie: too tight or too loose, then it's efficiency is reduced. It is lighter, cheaper to produce and does allow for gearing changes, which makes them better for manufacturers,racers or riders who do not put on a lot of miles on their bikes.
A shaft has the same efficiency it's whole life, which is normally a considerable amount of time. It is heavier, more costly to manufacture and impossible to re-gear however. Now, generally speaking, only top of the line touring bikes get shaft drive systems meant for riders who will pay the premium and expect to put on a lot of miles on their bikes.
IMO a belt is superior to a chain, but not as good as a shaft, for street driven motorcycles.
If chains were superior drive systems they would have them on cars, but none of them do. Honda DID have a chain drive sports car called the S600 back in 1964, 65 and 66,(only sold in Japan I believe) but they soon switched to shaft drive like everyone else.
Yea, I have a different opinion lol. Care if I express it?
Don't enjoy maintaining chains...
I'll be short: he who does not find pleasure in the act of lubricating the critical component before the ride... (heck, I better stop right here).
(08-10-2017, 05:59 AM)The ferret_imp Wrote: (08-10-2017, 03:00 AM)rotor_imp Wrote: There is not much to compare, IMHO.
The only similarity is the styling. But the substantial differences are so great that I just don't see how one would not have a clear preference for one or the other, based on:
2-cylinder vs. 4 cylinder engine.
Shaft drive vs. chain.
(I would not consider a motorcycle with less than 4 cylinders. And I find the reliability, effectiveness and cost of chain to be superior to shaft, and I consider oiling the chain to be an entirely enjoyable activity. But that's me; others will have different opinion).
BTW, whats with the R-9-T's exhaust on the wrong (left-hand) side of the motorcycle? Sure, one does not need to deal with chain next to a hot pipe, but still; each time I look at one, I have a feeling I'm looking at a mirror-image...
Yea, I have a different opinion lol. Care if I express it?
Don't enjoy maintaining chains and the reliability, cleanliness, and cost of maintaining the shaft is nearly nothing compared to a chain. I own both. Both Hondas.
My shaft drive Honda has 94K miles on it, has only required 5.2oz of 80 wt gear oil once a year which takes 5 minutes to change. Other than that nada.. no cleaning, no adjustment, no replacement. Maybe smear some moly lube on the drive gear when you have the wheel off to replace the back tire. Probably the most famous shaft drive bike, the Honda Goldwing has a tremendous reliability record for their shaft drive systems over billions of miles over the last 47 years. BMW, and Moto Guzzi have had pretty good success with theirs over the years as well. BMW had some final drive issues when they tried to go to final drives that required no maintenance at all, but overall they have had an outstanding reliability record since 1923, and Guzzi since the 60's.
My chain drive Honda has 35K miles (1/3 the mileage), needs a new chain and sprockets ($400 plus labor) and has gone thru probably 4 cans of chain lube at $15.99 each (that's not supposed to fling off and get the back wheel, swing arm, and center stand grungy but it does anyway) and requires periodic inspection/adjustments. Most people get between 20K and 25K out of a chain and sprockets. At 94K I will be ready for my 4th set of chain and sprockets on it.
A chain is "slightly" more efficient when new and lubed and adjusted properly. If it's dry, if it has tight spots, if it is out of a narrow adjustment band ie: too tight or too loose, then it's efficiency is reduced. It is lighter, cheaper to produce and does allow for gearing changes, which makes them better for manufacturers,racers or riders who do not put on a lot of miles on their bikes.
A shaft has the same efficiency it's whole life, which is normally a considerable amount of time. It is heavier, more costly to manufacture and impossible to re-gear however. Now, generally speaking, only top of the line touring bikes get shaft drive systems meant for riders who will pay the premium and expect to put on a lot of miles on their bikes.
IMO a belt is superior to a chain, but not as good as a shaft, for street driven motorcycles.
If chains were superior drive systems they would have them on cars, but none of them do. Honda DID have a chain drive sports car called the S600 back in 1964, 65 and 66,(only sold in Japan I believe) but they soon switched to shaft drive like everyone else.
I have a chain bike with 45K kilometers with both the chain and the sprocket (rear, I didn't look at the front in a while) is in "as new" condition. (My CB1100 has not enough kilometers yet to comment on).
I would never tell others how to lube their chains, but I have a 1 litre container of W80 gear oil, from which I occasionally re-fill a a small, narrow plastic bottle that I keep under the seat, together with a 5 mm flat brush. At every second or third fuel fill I dunk the brush in oil and brush the oil on the upper side of the exposed lower third of the chain length. I do not move the bike to get to the whole length of the chain, I count on the law of averages to ensure every 1000 km every single link of chain gets some love. For all practical purposes the cost is only my time when I stop for fuel anyways - that 1 liter W80 gear oil container was purchased long time ago and it is still one third full. Also, there is no room for the chain lube spray can on the bike, especially while on a trip.
My chain still felt good at 34,000 mi but on this last trip I could feel it had finally gone at 35,000 (56,000 km?). I had adjusted it before the trip and had to readjust it (a lot...as in a full 1/2 turn of the adjusters) after the trip and there was one tight spot.
Rotor, does the 80 wt gear oil fling off on the wheel?
Your system obviously works for you and I would keep doing what your doing. Hope your chain lasts a good long time. If it gets to 151,000 kms without needing replacement I would say it's as durable as the shaft on my ST (only still a lot more work lol).
Personally I would still choose a shaft over a chain on 2 identical models of street bike if offered a choice.
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(08-09-2017, 09:40 PM)pittycheria_imp Wrote: https://ultimatemotorcycling.com/2017/08...y-classic/
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Excellent article and thanks for posting! 
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(08-10-2017, 07:10 AM)The ferret_imp Wrote: (08-10-2017, 06:21 AM)rotor_imp Wrote: (08-10-2017, 05:59 AM)The ferret_imp Wrote: (08-10-2017, 03:00 AM)rotor_imp Wrote: There is not much to compare, IMHO.
The only similarity is the styling. But the substantial differences are so great that I just don't see how one would not have a clear preference for one or the other, based on:
2-cylinder vs. 4 cylinder engine.
Shaft drive vs. chain.
(I would not consider a motorcycle with less than 4 cylinders. And I find the reliability, effectiveness and cost of chain to be superior to shaft, and I consider oiling the chain to be an entirely enjoyable activity. But that's me; others will have different opinion).
BTW, whats with the R-9-T's exhaust on the wrong (left-hand) side of the motorcycle? Sure, one does not need to deal with chain next to a hot pipe, but still; each time I look at one, I have a feeling I'm looking at a mirror-image...
Yea, I have a different opinion lol. Care if I express it?
Don't enjoy maintaining chains and the reliability, cleanliness, and cost of maintaining the shaft is nearly nothing compared to a chain. I own both. Both Hondas.
My shaft drive Honda has 94K miles on it, has only required 5.2oz of 80 wt gear oil once a year which takes 5 minutes to change. Other than that nada.. no cleaning, no adjustment, no replacement. Maybe smear some moly lube on the drive gear when you have the wheel off to replace the back tire. Probably the most famous shaft drive bike, the Honda Goldwing has a tremendous reliability record for their shaft drive systems over billions of miles over the last 47 years. BMW, and Moto Guzzi have had pretty good success with theirs over the years as well. BMW had some final drive issues when they tried to go to final drives that required no maintenance at all, but overall they have had an outstanding reliability record since 1923, and Guzzi since the 60's.
My chain drive Honda has 35K miles (1/3 the mileage), needs a new chain and sprockets ($400 plus labor) and has gone thru probably 4 cans of chain lube at $15.99 each (that's not supposed to fling off and get the back wheel, swing arm, and center stand grungy but it does anyway) and requires periodic inspection/adjustments. Most people get between 20K and 25K out of a chain and sprockets. At 94K I will be ready for my 4th set of chain and sprockets on it.
A chain is "slightly" more efficient when new and lubed and adjusted properly. If it's dry, if it has tight spots, if it is out of a narrow adjustment band ie: too tight or too loose, then it's efficiency is reduced. It is lighter, cheaper to produce and does allow for gearing changes, which makes them better for manufacturers,racers or riders who do not put on a lot of miles on their bikes.
A shaft has the same efficiency it's whole life, which is normally a considerable amount of time. It is heavier, more costly to manufacture and impossible to re-gear however. Now, generally speaking, only top of the line touring bikes get shaft drive systems meant for riders who will pay the premium and expect to put on a lot of miles on their bikes.
IMO a belt is superior to a chain, but not as good as a shaft, for street driven motorcycles.
If chains were superior drive systems they would have them on cars, but none of them do. Honda DID have a chain drive sports car called the S600 back in 1964, 65 and 66,(only sold in Japan I believe) but they soon switched to shaft drive like everyone else.
Yea, I have a different opinion lol. Care if I express it?
Don't enjoy maintaining chains...
I'll be short: he who does not find pleasure in the act of lubricating the critical component before the ride... (heck, I better stop right here).
(08-10-2017, 05:59 AM)The ferret_imp Wrote: (08-10-2017, 03:00 AM)rotor_imp Wrote: There is not much to compare, IMHO.
The only similarity is the styling. But the substantial differences are so great that I just don't see how one would not have a clear preference for one or the other, based on:
2-cylinder vs. 4 cylinder engine.
Shaft drive vs. chain.
(I would not consider a motorcycle with less than 4 cylinders. And I find the reliability, effectiveness and cost of chain to be superior to shaft, and I consider oiling the chain to be an entirely enjoyable activity. But that's me; others will have different opinion).
BTW, whats with the R-9-T's exhaust on the wrong (left-hand) side of the motorcycle? Sure, one does not need to deal with chain next to a hot pipe, but still; each time I look at one, I have a feeling I'm looking at a mirror-image...
Yea, I have a different opinion lol. Care if I express it?
Don't enjoy maintaining chains and the reliability, cleanliness, and cost of maintaining the shaft is nearly nothing compared to a chain. I own both. Both Hondas.
My shaft drive Honda has 94K miles on it, has only required 5.2oz of 80 wt gear oil once a year which takes 5 minutes to change. Other than that nada.. no cleaning, no adjustment, no replacement. Maybe smear some moly lube on the drive gear when you have the wheel off to replace the back tire. Probably the most famous shaft drive bike, the Honda Goldwing has a tremendous reliability record for their shaft drive systems over billions of miles over the last 47 years. BMW, and Moto Guzzi have had pretty good success with theirs over the years as well. BMW had some final drive issues when they tried to go to final drives that required no maintenance at all, but overall they have had an outstanding reliability record since 1923, and Guzzi since the 60's.
My chain drive Honda has 35K miles (1/3 the mileage), needs a new chain and sprockets ($400 plus labor) and has gone thru probably 4 cans of chain lube at $15.99 each (that's not supposed to fling off and get the back wheel, swing arm, and center stand grungy but it does anyway) and requires periodic inspection/adjustments. Most people get between 20K and 25K out of a chain and sprockets. At 94K I will be ready for my 4th set of chain and sprockets on it.
A chain is "slightly" more efficient when new and lubed and adjusted properly. If it's dry, if it has tight spots, if it is out of a narrow adjustment band ie: too tight or too loose, then it's efficiency is reduced. It is lighter, cheaper to produce and does allow for gearing changes, which makes them better for manufacturers,racers or riders who do not put on a lot of miles on their bikes.
A shaft has the same efficiency it's whole life, which is normally a considerable amount of time. It is heavier, more costly to manufacture and impossible to re-gear however. Now, generally speaking, only top of the line touring bikes get shaft drive systems meant for riders who will pay the premium and expect to put on a lot of miles on their bikes.
IMO a belt is superior to a chain, but not as good as a shaft, for street driven motorcycles.
If chains were superior drive systems they would have them on cars, but none of them do. Honda DID have a chain drive sports car called the S600 back in 1964, 65 and 66,(only sold in Japan I believe) but they soon switched to shaft drive like everyone else.
I have a chain bike with 45K kilometers with both the chain and the sprocket (rear, I didn't look at the front in a while) is in "as new" condition. (My CB1100 has not enough kilometers yet to comment on).
I would never tell others how to lube their chains, but I have a 1 litre container of W80 gear oil, from which I occasionally re-fill a a small, narrow plastic bottle that I keep under the seat, together with a 5 mm flat brush. At every second or third fuel fill I dunk the brush in oil and brush the oil on the upper side of the exposed lower third of the chain length. I do not move the bike to get to the whole length of the chain, I count on the law of averages to ensure every 1000 km every single link of chain gets some love. For all practical purposes the cost is only my time when I stop for fuel anyways - that 1 liter W80 gear oil container was purchased long time ago and it is still one third full. Also, there is no room for the chain lube spray can on the bike, especially while on a trip.
My chain still felt good at 34,000 mi but on this last trip I could feel it had finally gone at 35,000 (56,000 km?). I had adjusted it before the trip and had to readjust it (a lot...as in a full 1/2 turn of the adjusters) after the trip and there was one tight spot.
Rotor, does the 80 wt gear oil fling off on the wheel?
Your system obviously works for you and I would keep doing what your doing. Hope your chain lasts a good long time. If it gets to 151,000 kms without needing replacement I would say it's as durable as the shaft on my ST (only still a lot more work lol).
Personally I would still choose a shaft over a chain on 2 identical models of street bike if offered a choice.
I would lie if I denied the problem in its entirety, however the real ugly manifestation of it is reserved for those that put the bike on a stand every 2000-3000 kilometers, rotate the rear wheel and pour oil out of a squeeze-can as long as there is some left. Brush is my friend  A good indication of a wrong way to oil the chain is the need to put a rug underneath the chain: if you have lost a drop you are doing something wrong. (Why do you think my 1-litre can of gear oil last me a couple of years  (on a couple of motorcycles
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To the best of my knowledge, there are no shaft drive race, or true high performance motorcycles. There are ample benefits and drawbacks to each.
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True Capo, all points which I believe I acknowledged above. If I were riding a high performance bike in a sporting manner that is something I would take into consideration, but neither of my bikes are considered high performance by todays standards and I hardly drive them in a manner which would make a chain advantageous.
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(08-10-2017, 11:11 AM)Capo_imp Wrote: To the best of my knowledge, there are no shaft drive race, or true high performance motorcycles. There are ample benefits and drawbacks to each.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk I absolutely agree.
My point was not that one is universally better than the other - but instead that there is such a substantial difference between the two, that anybody with sufficient experience with motorcycles will be drawn to one or the other, instead of being drawn to a "retro bike style", no matter what the power delivery system happens to be.
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