12-05-2017, 09:57 PM
(12-05-2017, 02:29 PM)SportsterDoc_imp Wrote:(12-05-2017, 10:51 AM)pdedse_imp Wrote:(12-05-2017, 06:32 AM)SportsterDoc_imp Wrote:(12-05-2017, 06:30 AM)The ferret_imp Wrote: I don't think its a vacume leak problem which to me would cause high idle issues only. THis " problem" has componants of both high and low idle, therefore I think its some kind of sensor problem, but I am not an engineer.
May not be the issue...but want to check as many possibilities as possible
Small leak = high idle
Big leak = engine dying
BTW, in the Hunting RPM thread, post 72, popgun posted the EOT resistance value
"From the manual: STANDARD: 2.4-2.9 Kohms (20 degrees C/68 degrees F)"
Surprised that it is not a chart with temperature ranges.
May not be the issue...but want to check as many possibilities as possible
Small leak = high idle
Big leak = engine dying
...
But if it were vacuum leak related, wouldn't the high idle happen consistently, as in "all the time"? I've had high and low idle on the same ride. Stop, turn off engine, restart, problem goes away, sometimes it doesn't.
jdvalero pulled the TPS sensor plug and found a physical issue with wiring and says that this has fixed the issue for him. I hope that the problem truly is fixed for him, because that would be one of the few cases where something concrete was spotted as being "faulty", a fix applied, and idle issue goes away.
Per suggestions near that post, I pulled that plug, cleaned connectors and applied a tiny bit of dialectic grease, reconnected. I've done 3 rides since...1st time with bike fully warm, 1 instance of low idle at 750rpm. Tuned off bike, started and idle returned to normal. Last two rides of 1/2 hour to 1 hr, no issues at all. Fixed? Hahahaaaa. Yes, until it isn't.
May depend upon the nature of the leak:
1. intake boot may be affected by thermal expansion
2. cracked/loose hose may be affected by movement
3. cracked fitting (4 way or 5 way) may be affected by heat and/or movement. Small crack = high idle...crack opens and bike barely idles.
Not saying this is the issue, but worth checking:
a. Snug clamp bolts
b. Check hoses are not hardened and pushjed all the way on.
c. inspect fittings
d. apply unlit propane and listen for idle speed change
(12-05-2017, 02:14 PM)max_imp Wrote: Just some pics to show how i tested the rpm eot relationship.
first pic is what is connected and type of connectors ( everything is wired in parallel )
second is with engine lukewarm r eot = 1000 ohm 3.468 v and 1340 rpm.
third is engine warmed up just enough for the rpm to settle at 1050 rpm at 2.17 v at 371 ohm.
So the point where the engine settles at 1050 rpm appears to be 2 volts across the eot sensor,
Good info and great pics!
(12-05-2017, 01:04 PM)max_imp Wrote: Hi again doc, some more info and a video.
Voltage tested at engine cold is 4.04 volts ( 2000 ohms ) 1500 rpm
and hot engine measures 0.909 volts (300 ohms ) 1050 rpm
Interestingly i could not get the engine to idle below 1050 rpm? ( low rpm issue ).
Seems perfect for the a/d converter in the cpu in the ecm ( geeks only ).http://cb1100forum.com/forum/images/smilies/cool.gif
Please be careful not to damage the little terminals inside the eot sensor, this is a bit of an advanced test which requires knowledge of electronics and connectors!
Really good request of the vin numbers, it may relate to a particular batch that had something different done.
The issue is that japan does not have any faulty bikes to test and that makes it hard for them to come up with an answer,
so if we can give them some numbers they may find something that relates to this batch of bikes.
New youtube video on today's test with the relationship between the eot sensor and change of rpm
; [url=https://youtu.be/aDkx_6tIeDs]https://youtu.be/aDkx_6tIeDs
as usual; cheers Max
Great visual depiction of correlation of lowering EOT voltage with lowering of idle speed. In the first test as both were dropping, then the EOT voltage climbed , which should indicate oil colder, instead of warming up.
Somehow added resistance is getting into the EOT-ECU circuit:
Air pocket at EOT possible???
Confirm that the voltage probe is at ECU connector?
If so, this would eliminate
a. Bad connection at EOT and/or ECU
b. Partially broken wire
and points to a defective EOT
I just got home from a long meeting with some paperwork to do tonight, so I am not completely focused, but my initial thinking is that your video indicates that it is NOT
A. an internal ECU / ECU program issue
B. not a vacuum issue
C. Not an IAC issue
on your bike.
There are many different bikes, both manufacturer and model, with EFI idle issues...there may be many different causes.
(12-05-2017, 11:48 AM)peterbaron_imp Wrote:(12-05-2017, 08:46 AM)Lord Popgun_imp Wrote: Doc,
I’ll look in the manual for the TPS. There is some info in there but I can’t remember detals. If nothing else, I know it lists min/max voltages.
Even though the TPS is not available separately, one knowledgeable member posted that is was the same a one off some car. He based this off the min/max voltages and actually tweeked his some. [Guys, DO NOT try this unless you are very experianced with this kind of thing. As noted before, there is NOTHING in the service manual for adjusting. Just big warnings to not touch it.]
I spent a couple hours trying to find that post and could not. He said it was a pretty common one, IIRC.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
NOTHING wrong with popgun statement at all !!!!!!
Just want to add 2 cents...and I am NOT that mentioned knowledgeable member...
2013-14 HONDA-CB1100 :: TPS voltage & resistance test WITHOUT removing TPS
Test with digital multimeter (for advanced users)..
TPS (variable resistor) has 3 wires/pins: power supply(+), ground(-) and signal::
NEVER disconnect/reconnect TPS connector if IGN is ON, EVER
This is NOT a field fix to your problem - TPS test only
You do all these tests at your own risk/I assume no responsibility
IF you have a TPS problem = most likely you would have a DTC (history, pending or active, possible ELO/MIL ON).....or.....poor connection somewhere ...
WHEN ENGINE FULLY WARMED UP AND IDLING - WIGGLE/PRESS BLACK/3 PIN TPS CONNECTOR (near your L leg) and see if there is some RPM fluctuation.. = SIMPLE TEST FOR EVERYONE.
These advanced tests might be helpful::
TPS wiring::
black/yellow = power supply (+)
black/green = ground (-)
black/red = signal
This Honda diagram, I have, SUCS BIG TIME !!!!! = due to NO pin numbers
TEST 1
*IGN ON, Engine/stop switch OFF, backprobe ground and signal = about 0 Volts = OK when throttle is closed. NOTE:: I do not think it will be dead on 0/ZERO Volts, I think it will be slightly above..like 0.1 - 0.2 V
*TPS sensor VOLTAGE must smoothly/continuously increase/decrease when throttle is opening/closing respectively...so you MUST have smooth Voltage operation from about 0V (closed) to about 4.75 - 5.25 V at WOT = OK
TEST 2
*IGN OFF, Engine/stop switch OFF, DISCONNECT black TPS connector (3pins)
* TURN IGN ON, do NOT start (while TPS connector disconnected)
* Measure the voltage between black/yellow(+) and black/green(-) = MUST be within 4.75 - 5.25 V = OK
** Tell me what is your voltage between black/green(-) and black/red (signal), PLEASE = ? V **
TEST 3
*IGN OFF
* Disconnect black/3pin TPS connector
* Measure TPSensor side (NOT harness) resistance between black/red & black/green = within 0.5 - 1.5 kOhm = OK..
Manual does NOT tell me TPS resistance at WOT or/and between ground(-) and power supply(+)...but from my TPS experience would be above 1.5 kOhms
This entire TPS circuit consists of 4 connectors: TPS (black 3 pins), SUB black/10 pin, JOINT black/12 pin and ECM/ECU gray/33pin...and poor contact might be anywhere...would first start with TPS connector as per tests 1,2,3
Do NOT want to make complicated but this is how it works and how to test it
MAKE sure your throttle cable has some slack !!!
After disconnecting ANY connector:: check it, clean it, apply connector enhancer for better conductivity, please.
pb
Peter
Excellent info
Thank you much...will finish evaluating in the morning
This allows present and future member to evaluate (albeit carefully), if the need arises.
In the automotive world TPS failures are somewhat common, especially above 100,000 miles and typically cause a limp mode. I would expect few issues on a bike with much lower miles, but still very surprised that a TPS cannot be purchased separately.
May depend upon the nature of the leak:
1. intake boot may be affected by thermal expansion
2. cracked/loose hose may be affected by movement
3. cracked fitting (4 way or 5 way) may be affected by heat and/or movement. Small crack = high idle...crack opens and bike barely idles.
Not saying this is the issue, but worth checking:
a. Snug clamp bolts
b. Check hoses are not hardened and pushjed all the way on.
c. inspect fittings
d. apply unlit propane and listen for idle speed change
(12-05-2017, 02:14 PM)max_imp Wrote: Just some pics to show how i tested the rpm eot relationship.
first pic is what is connected and type of connectors ( everything is wired in parallel )
second is with engine lukewarm r eot = 1000 ohm 3.468 v and 1340 rpm.
third is engine warmed up just enough for the rpm to settle at 1050 rpm at 2.17 v at 371 ohm.
So the point where the engine settles at 1050 rpm appears to be 2 volts across the eot sensor,
Good info and great pics!
(12-05-2017, 01:04 PM)max_imp Wrote: Hi again doc, some more info and a video.
Voltage tested at engine cold is 4.04 volts ( 2000 ohms ) 1500 rpm
and hot engine measures 0.909 volts (300 ohms ) 1050 rpm
Interestingly i could not get the engine to idle below 1050 rpm? ( low rpm issue ).
Seems perfect for the a/d converter in the cpu in the ecm ( geeks only ).http://cb1100forum.com/forum/images/smilies/cool.gif
Please be careful not to damage the little terminals inside the eot sensor, this is a bit of an advanced test which requires knowledge of electronics and connectors!
Really good request of the vin numbers, it may relate to a particular batch that had something different done.
The issue is that japan does not have any faulty bikes to test and that makes it hard for them to come up with an answer,
so if we can give them some numbers they may find something that relates to this batch of bikes.
New youtube video on today's test with the relationship between the eot sensor and change of rpm
; https://youtu.be/aDkx_6tIeDs
as usual; cheers Max
Great visual depiction of correlation of lowering EOT voltage with lowering of idle speed. In the first test as both were dropping, then the EOT voltage climbed , which should indicate oil colder, instead of warming up.
Somehow added resistance is getting into the EOT-ECU circuit:
Air pocket at EOT possible???
Confirm that the voltage probe is at ECU connector?
If so, this would eliminate
a. Bad connection at EOT and/or ECU
b. Partially broken wire
and points to a defective EOT
I just got home from a long meeting with some paperwork to do tonight, so I am not completely focused, but my initial thinking is that your video indicates that it is NOT
A. an internal ECU / ECU program issue
B. not a vacuum issue
C. Not an IAC issue
on your bike.
There are many different bikes, both manufacturer and model, with EFI idle issues...there may be many different causes.
(12-05-2017, 11:48 AM)peterbaron_imp Wrote:(12-05-2017, 08:46 AM)Lord Popgun_imp Wrote: Doc,
I’ll look in the manual for the TPS. There is some info in there but I can’t remember detals. If nothing else, I know it lists min/max voltages.
Even though the TPS is not available separately, one knowledgeable member posted that is was the same a one off some car. He based this off the min/max voltages and actually tweeked his some. [Guys, DO NOT try this unless you are very experianced with this kind of thing. As noted before, there is NOTHING in the service manual for adjusting. Just big warnings to not touch it.]
I spent a couple hours trying to find that post and could not. He said it was a pretty common one, IIRC.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
NOTHING wrong with popgun statement at all !!!!!!
Just want to add 2 cents...and I am NOT that mentioned knowledgeable member...
2013-14 HONDA-CB1100 :: TPS voltage & resistance test WITHOUT removing TPS
Test with digital multimeter (for advanced users)..
TPS (variable resistor) has 3 wires/pins: power supply(+), ground(-) and signal::
NEVER disconnect/reconnect TPS connector if IGN is ON, EVER
This is NOT a field fix to your problem - TPS test only
You do all these tests at your own risk/I assume no responsibility
IF you have a TPS problem = most likely you would have a DTC (history, pending or active, possible ELO/MIL ON).....or.....poor connection somewhere ...
WHEN ENGINE FULLY WARMED UP AND IDLING - WIGGLE/PRESS BLACK/3 PIN TPS CONNECTOR (near your L leg) and see if there is some RPM fluctuation.. = SIMPLE TEST FOR EVERYONE.
These advanced tests might be helpful::
TPS wiring::
black/yellow = power supply (+)
black/green = ground (-)
black/red = signal
This Honda diagram, I have, SUCS BIG TIME !!!!! = due to NO pin numbers
TEST 1
*IGN ON, Engine/stop switch OFF, backprobe ground and signal = about 0 Volts = OK when throttle is closed. NOTE:: I do not think it will be dead on 0/ZERO Volts, I think it will be slightly above..like 0.1 - 0.2 V
*TPS sensor VOLTAGE must smoothly/continuously increase/decrease when throttle is opening/closing respectively...so you MUST have smooth Voltage operation from about 0V (closed) to about 4.75 - 5.25 V at WOT = OK
TEST 2
*IGN OFF, Engine/stop switch OFF, DISCONNECT black TPS connector (3pins)
* TURN IGN ON, do NOT start (while TPS connector disconnected)
* Measure the voltage between black/yellow(+) and black/green(-) = MUST be within 4.75 - 5.25 V = OK
** Tell me what is your voltage between black/green(-) and black/red (signal), PLEASE = ? V **
TEST 3
*IGN OFF
* Disconnect black/3pin TPS connector
* Measure TPSensor side (NOT harness) resistance between black/red & black/green = within 0.5 - 1.5 kOhm = OK..
Manual does NOT tell me TPS resistance at WOT or/and between ground(-) and power supply(+)...but from my TPS experience would be above 1.5 kOhms
This entire TPS circuit consists of 4 connectors: TPS (black 3 pins), SUB black/10 pin, JOINT black/12 pin and ECM/ECU gray/33pin...and poor contact might be anywhere...would first start with TPS connector as per tests 1,2,3
Do NOT want to make complicated but this is how it works and how to test it
MAKE sure your throttle cable has some slack !!!
After disconnecting ANY connector:: check it, clean it, apply connector enhancer for better conductivity, please.
pb
Peter
Excellent info
Thank you much...will finish evaluating in the morning
This allows present and future member to evaluate (albeit carefully), if the need arises.
In the automotive world TPS failures are somewhat common, especially above 100,000 miles and typically cause a limp mode. I would expect few issues on a bike with much lower miles, but still very surprised that a TPS cannot be purchased separately.
Doc,
U R absolutely right, TPS is very simple device and should be able to purchase separately as well as ISCSV and stepper motor....Honda is taking huge advantage of customers.
More than certain Honda does not make above mentioned parts...most likely Keihin, ND, Kefico, Mitsubishi... or some others manufactures...
If we dig, we can find supplier..
But as we said = diagnose faulty part before replacement
...and if you need further assistance, drop me a line...forum or PM..perhaps I can help
http://www.globalsources.com/gsol/I/Thro...?view=grid
Cheers
pb