CB1100 Idle speed instability problem

[SportsterDoc]

More emails between Max and popgun.
Max is favoring the TPS as being the cause of many of the issues.
We are continuing to research a replacement source.

In the meantime, how many CB1100 riders, who have experienced idle instability, have the following conditions:
1. Bike is parked outdoors, uncovered?
2. Bike is ridden in rain, especially heavy rain?
3. Bike is hosed off, occasionally/frequently?

If yes, to any of the above, has the TPS been unplugged (easy thumb release) and contacts checked for corrosion?

Note: Female/outer connector is facing up, which would likely funnel moisture, even though there may be an o-ring (oval) for the male/inner connector to press against.

[max]

Sportsterdoc asked if i could put up a picture of my tps and his testclip idea.
This technique is widely used in the automotive faultfinding industry, i think his idea is excellent, practical and very much worth trying.
it involves sharpening a thin steel pin ( folded open paperclip ) and inserting it through the rubber seal that fits around every wire that enters a connector, we all have these.
As corrected by sportsterdoc, a safety pin is another good idea, i like the idea of safety.

We can now safely measure the voltage of the "wiper or moving part " of the tp sensor, it is the red/black middle wire.
insert the pin parallel with the wire into the connector until it stops and touches the metal part of the connector.
using something like crocodile clips connect the pin to the red test probe and connect the black probe to a known good ground, i used the sparkplug metal body for this.

no need to start the engine, just key and stop switch on.

MY FIRST ATTEMPT WAS THE THROTTLE BODY ITSELF FOR GROUND BUT THAT GAVE ME A WRONG READING, BE AWARE!

So here is the picture, not showing the black probe to ground nor the red probe to the white clip.



lets see....max

[SportsterDoc]

Thanks, Max

A safety pin from my wife's pincushion works great and saves sharpening a paper clip or =.

The throttle body did not work for a ground, as I think it is plastic.

Sportsterdoc asked if i could put up a picture of my tps and his testclip idea.
This technique is widely used in the automotive faultfinding industry, i think his idea is excellent, practical and very much worth trying.
it involves sharpening a thin steel pin ( folded open paperclip ) and inserting it through the rubber seal that fits around every wire that enters a connector, we all have these.
As corrected by sportsterdoc, a safety pin is another good idea, i like the idea of safety.

We can now safely measure the voltage of the "wiper or moving part " of the tp sensor, it is the red/black middle wire.
insert the pin parallel with the wire into the connector until it stops and touches the metal part of the connector.
using something like crocodile clips connect the pin to the red test probe and connect the black probe to a known good ground, i used the sparkplug metal body for this.

no need to start the engine, just key and stop switch on.

MY FIRST ATTEMPT WAS THE THROTTLE BODY ITSELF FOR GROUND BUT THAT GAVE ME A WRONG READING, BE AWARE!

So here is the picture, not showing the black probe to ground nor the red probe to the white clip.



lets see....max

Too funny!
In North America, we use alligator clips!

[pdedse]

More emails between Max and popgun.
Max is favoring the TPS as being the cause of many of the issues.
We are continuing to research a replacement source.

In the meantime, how many CB1100 riders, who have experienced idle instability, have the following conditions:
1. Bike is parked outdoors, uncovered?
2. Bike is ridden in rain, especially heavy rain?
3. Bike is hosed off, occasionally/frequently?

If yes, to any of the above, has the TPS been unplugged (easy thumb release) and contacts checked for corrosion?

Note: Female/outer connector is facing up, which would likely funnel moisture, even though there may be an o-ring (oval) for the male/inner connector to press against.

For me:
1. Bike is parked outdoors, uncovered? Always garaged at night, on a two week trip, parked outside.
2. Bike is ridden in rain, especially heavy rain? Never heavy rain; light rain a few times
3. Bike is hosed off, occasionally/frequently? Have only washed the bike 2x; minimal water used.

In general, bike doesn't get washed much; I didn't see any sign of corrosion at the TPS connector.

[SportsterDoc]

More emails between Max and popgun.
Max is favoring the TPS as being the cause of many of the issues.
We are continuing to research a replacement source.

In the meantime, how many CB1100 riders, who have experienced idle instability, have the following conditions:
1. Bike is parked outdoors, uncovered?
2. Bike is ridden in rain, especially heavy rain?
3. Bike is hosed off, occasionally/frequently?

If yes, to any of the above, has the TPS been unplugged (easy thumb release) and contacts checked for corrosion?

Note: Female/outer connector is facing up, which would likely funnel moisture, even though there may be an o-ring (oval) for the male/inner connector to press against.

For me:
1. Bike is parked outdoors, uncovered? Always garaged at night, on a two week trip, parked outside.
2. Bike is ridden in rain, especially heavy rain? Never heavy rain; light rain a few times
3. Bike is hosed off, occasionally/frequently? Have only washed the bike 2x; minimal water used.

In general, bike doesn't get washed much; I didn't see any sign of corrosion at the TPS connector.

Not likely a moisture/corrosion issue for you.
Because of the improvement after cleaning the TPS connector, it may simply be that the contacts were not mating well until disconnected and reconnected, whether cleaned or not.

Had you previously unplugged the TPS?

Do you recall ever bumping the TPS / TPS connector / TPS wirinig?

[pdedse]

More emails between Max and popgun.
Max is favoring the TPS as being the cause of many of the issues.
We are continuing to research a replacement source.

In the meantime, how many CB1100 riders, who have experienced idle instability, have the following conditions:
1. Bike is parked outdoors, uncovered?
2. Bike is ridden in rain, especially heavy rain?
3. Bike is hosed off, occasionally/frequently?

If yes, to any of the above, has the TPS been unplugged (easy thumb release) and contacts checked for corrosion?

Note: Female/outer connector is facing up, which would likely funnel moisture, even though there may be an o-ring (oval) for the male/inner connector to press against.

For me:
1. Bike is parked outdoors, uncovered? Always garaged at night, on a two week trip, parked outside.
2. Bike is ridden in rain, especially heavy rain? Never heavy rain; light rain a few times
3. Bike is hosed off, occasionally/frequently? Have only washed the bike 2x; minimal water used.

In general, bike doesn't get washed much; I didn't see any sign of corrosion at the TPS connector.

Not likely a moisture/corrosion issue for you.
Because of the improvement after cleaning the TPS connector, it may simply be that the contacts were not mating well until disconnected and reconnected, whether cleaned or not.

Had you previously unplugged the TPS?

Do you recall ever bumping the TPS / TPS connector / TPS wirinig?

I had not previously unplugged the TPS connector--I didn't even know what it was.
I may have lightly sprayed the area with water after cleaning 2x, but no blasting spray.

jdvalero confirmed for me yesterday that the idle issue has not returned for him since he unplugged his TPS connector and "realigned"? one of the receiving holes of the connector. That was nearly a month ago.

He also mentions that his issue first started after a hard hiway run and wonders if vibration was what brought about a bad contact at the TPS connector.

I hold my breath each ride wondering if the problem will return, but I can tell you that since unplugging and cleaning the TPS connector that I've had the longest run of nearly no issue (slight dip to 900rpm 2x) since the problem started in July.

However, this stretch coincides with much cooler temps. We'll see in time. With Oregon rains and cold days, it's hard to get any rides in, but some dry weather is supposed to come middle of the week.

[Wisedrum]

A Honda software update solved my idle problem til now since a few months. The reason for an update were faults in the programming of the fuel injection. So the explanation of the mechatronic. I will see for how long it will last with my 2013 CB.

I recommend everyone with this problem to achieve the same, which will take some effort before trying out other 'solvations' in the meaning of trial and errors attempts in a more or less 'dark room'.

Wisedrum

[SportsterDoc]

More emails between Max and popgun.
Max is favoring the TPS as being the cause of many of the issues.
We are continuing to research a replacement source.

In the meantime, how many CB1100 riders, who have experienced idle instability, have the following conditions:
1. Bike is parked outdoors, uncovered?
2. Bike is ridden in rain, especially heavy rain?
3. Bike is hosed off, occasionally/frequently?

If yes, to any of the above, has the TPS been unplugged (easy thumb release) and contacts checked for corrosion?

Note: Female/outer connector is facing up, which would likely funnel moisture, even though there may be an o-ring (oval) for the male/inner connector to press against.

For me:
1. Bike is parked outdoors, uncovered? Always garaged at night, on a two week trip, parked outside.
2. Bike is ridden in rain, especially heavy rain? Never heavy rain; light rain a few times
3. Bike is hosed off, occasionally/frequently? Have only washed the bike 2x; minimal water used.

In general, bike doesn't get washed much; I didn't see any sign of corrosion at the TPS connector.

Not likely a moisture/corrosion issue for you.
Because of the improvement after cleaning the TPS connector, it may simply be that the contacts were not mating well until disconnected and reconnected, whether cleaned or not.

Had you previously unplugged the TPS?

Do you recall ever bumping the TPS / TPS connector / TPS wirinig?

I had not previously unplugged the TPS connector--I didn't even know what it was.
I may have lightly sprayed the area with water after cleaning 2x, but no blasting spray.

jdvalero confirmed for me yesterday that the idle issue has not returned for him since he unplugged his TPS connector and "realigned"? one of the receiving holes of the connector. That was nearly a month ago.

He also mentions that his issue first started after a hard hiway run and wonders if vibration was what brought about a bad contact at the TPS connector.

I hold my breath each ride wondering if the problem will return, but I can tell you that since unplugging and cleaning the TPS connector that I've had the longest run of nearly no issue (slight dip to 900rpm 2x) since the problem started in July.

However, this stretch coincides with much cooler temps. We'll see in time. With Oregon rains and cold days, it's hard to get any rides in, but some dry weather is supposed to come middle of the week.

Loosening the TPS fasteners, motor off, ignition on, voltmeter connected (similar to Max's photo) is the proper way to set the base throttle closed voltage. Arbitrarily moving it is not wise, although I would expect that the throttle calibration procedure may compensate for a minor error in not having 0.5 vdc at throttle closed.

A Honda software update solved my idle problem til now since a few months. The reason for an update were faults in the programming of the fuel injection. So the explanation of the mechatronic. I will see for how long it will last with my 2013 CB.

I recommend everyone with this problem to achieve the same, which will take some effort before trying out other 'solvations' in the meaning of trial and errors attempts in a more or less 'dark room'.

Wisedrum

What was the upgrade date of the software?
What is the software number?
Does 2014 model already have that update?

A Honda software update solved my idle problem til now since a few months. The reason for an update were faults in the programming of the fuel injection. So the explanation of the mechatronic. I will see for how long it will last with my 2013 CB.

I recommend everyone with this problem to achieve the same, which will take some effort before trying out other 'solvations' in the meaning of trial and errors attempts in a more or less 'dark room'.

Wisedrum

So, are you recommending that no one follow the diagnostic instructions per the Honda Factory Service Manual?

The last few pages of this very long thread have been a quest for empirical data to perhaps allow remote diagnosis...not trial and error.

A. Snugging clamps on the intake hoses, to minimize the chance of a vacuum leak, is a standard motorcycle maintenance procedure. A follow-up check is to apply an unlit propane torch (or WD-40, if you don't mind the mess) while the engine is running, to check, for a change in idle speed.

B. Measuring resistances and voltages, per the FSM is standard diagnostic procedure.

C. Checking for active or stored codes is standard diagnostic procedure.

What suggestions are you labeling as trial and error?

What would you suggest if a software upgrade does not solve the issue?

At this point, it is likely that there are three possible (or combined) issues for high/low idle issues:

1. TPS sensor / TPS connector / TPS wiring / voltage to TPS from ECM.

2. IACV motor / IACV plunger operation / IACV wiring

3. Vacuum leak associated with intake manifold tubing / intake hose clamps loose.

Many, many times carb removal and reinsertion without lubrication (water, diluted liquid soap or spit) has resulted in a vacuum leak on Sporsters (Keihin CV40 into single hose to manifold to both cylinders). Many, many times the vacuum line on pre 2006 models to the vacuum operated petcock and the Y to the VOES (Vacuum Operated Electrical Switch which signals advance/retard to ignition module) on pre 2004 models has been an issue.

Although I have been wrenching for over half a century, I certainly do not know everything...I am still learning...but what has been posted is directly from or based upon the FSM.

I absolutely despise throwing parts at an issue and a very expensive throttle body assembly does that for 2 1/2 of the 3 issue categories.

Although Harley, Triumph and Moto Guzzi have two year warranties, Honda USA is only one year. We don't want idle issues to push a CB1100 rider into an unnecessary throttle body replacement, simply because full diagnostics have not been done.

[Wisedrum]

I cannot give you the wanted details.
I don't have them. Just one, the upgrade was made in the mids of October this year.

I describe the way my Honda got its update.
A telefon call with the Honda management informed me, that an update was available. When I found time later on I drove to the nearest Honda dealer to let it be played on my CB. He knew nothing. So he gathered information and got the update on a cd. We fixed a date, I waited the time my Honda was installed and after 2 hours we were through with it. When I asked for the price of the action the chief of the Honda shop told me I have to pay nothing. Honda did it under warranty although my CB has run out of it because they fixed bugs.

No cash, no serial number but a machine that functions well again.

In our German forum is a member who's trying to find out, if Honda has developed something comparable for the follwing model like the EX. I don't no how successful he has been. After writing something about his problem here and in Germany he did not continue his discreption of how things developed. In a way he was not lucky but hopeful.

So, ask your dealer or even better the Main Honda US Department. They should know something about the update to be on the market or not.

Doing diagnostics can be fine. I did mine as good as I could and tried out different proceedings. Talked to people, read a lot here in this thread. But all curing was not successful. Maybe it helped a bit. Until now the only thing that has been really helpful was the systsem update on my Honda. Maybe CBs are not a alike and need different treatment. I don't think so, they are equal constructed machines. The engineer that informed me let me know, that the update will only cure low idle problems not high ones. Strangely enough. My Honda mutated its idle behaviour after my attempts from high into low ones. So bad so good for the update.....all seems to be obscured and hidden in digital clouds and mysteries, I as a normal human being not being a motorbike engineer am not able to understand all aspects of this issue. Not even single parts of it. The only thing I knew is, that the CB should run well right from start over a long time without any faults in its conception. I experienced misfunctions with other vehicles I bought as new ones and used ones with warranty. I fought with the manufacturers and dealers til they run well, even if it took my time and nerves. It was worth the effort. Same with the CB.

Wisedrum

[beardyweirdy@me.com_imp]

Just to note again, as it's probably now lost in the murky depths of this Mega Thread, I had the updated software installed on my 2014EX. As per Wisedrums experience, it came on a CD from Honda UK to my dealer. They plugged up the bike and updated. Never had the low idle since....
I asked for a number for the software but didn't get anything. No notes In the service book.
Sorry to not offer you anything, but just wanted to say it was available in the U.K. Also and for the 2014EX