Some Issues Arise, as the Mileage Adds Up...

[treytexag_imp]

You should always keep it in gear when stopped at a light in case you have to get quickly out of the way.

Disagree. If in a hypothetical, someone is bearing down on you...you're not much better off charging blindly into an intersection against the light. And in fact you'd open YOURSELF to liability...instead of that tractor-trailer coming up on you, YOU YOURSELF are now the cause of the accident - by running the stoplight. Which is gonna affect insurance payout, who pays what - and will keep you from suing for damages from any other party.

And anyway, the injuries from a stopping vehicle striking your rear are probably going to be far less than being hit broadside by a vehicle which was NOT stopping and maybe didn't even have time to react.

Keeping the clutch in and a gear engaged, in a car, is hard on the clutch throwout bearing. I don't know the mechanical composition of a motorcycle wet clutch pack; but it's quite possible there's a similar source of wear that could eventually take the clutch out prematurely.

Gentlemen,

Couldn't disagree more with this. I'm coming up on nearly 50 accident free years riding on the street and twice I've had to escape when I was going to be rear ended. Being ready to get out of the way doesn't mean "charging blindly into an intersection", that's a false choice. If there are one or more cars stopped at an intersection a rider should always stop behind a car and to the side such that he can quickly accelerate between or beside that car and let the auto take the hit. Plus that car in front of you is a lot more visible than a bike. If no cars are at the intersection I still don't relax and take my bike out of gear until there is a car stopped behind me.

Late in her life my dear mother rear ended a motorcycle that was stopped at a newly installed freeway on ramp red light. He was sitting there not paying attention to his rear view mirror and there was plenty of room for him to get out of the way. Still, that accident was my mothers fault and the damage to the bike and rider were horrible (he survived) and the stress of the lawsuit killed my elderly mom 6 months later.

Riding on the street is deadly serious business and it's not good enough to "not be at fault". A rider needs to prevent accidents caused by car drivers and sitting at an intersection without a car stopped behind you with your bike in neutral directly contradicts what is taught in street survival motorcycle courses.

Finally, in 50 years I've never had a car or bike damaged by leaving it in gear with the clutch in until there is someone stopped behind me. But that practice has saved my hide twice. And if I'm about to be rear ended in the future I won't be "charging blindly into an intersection", I will have my eyes open and I'll get out of the way as best I can. The last thing I'll care about is liability. Most of us would rather be at fault and alive than ticket free and dead. In this case, what I have relayed here is not JMO, it's the instruction riders receive in street survival courses. Cheers.

Chip

Gentlemen,

Couldn't disagree more with this. I'm coming up on nearly 50 accident free years riding on the street and twice I've had to escape when I was going to be rear ended. Being ready to get out of the way doesn't mean "charging blindly into an intersection", that's a false choice. If there are one or more cars stopped at an intersection a rider should always stop behind a car and to the side such that he can quickly accelerate between or beside that car and let the auto take the hit. Plus that car in front of you is a lot more visible than a bike. If no cars are at the intersection I still don't relax and take my bike out of gear until there is a car stopped behind me.

Late in her life my dear mother rear ended a motorcycle that was stopped at a newly installed freeway on ramp red light. He was sitting there not paying attention to his rear view mirror and there was plenty of room for him to get out of the way. Still, that accident was my mothers fault and the damage to the bike and rider were horrible (he survived) and the stress of the lawsuit killed my elderly mom 6 months later.

Riding on the street is deadly serious business and it's not good enough to "not be at fault". A rider needs to prevent accidents caused by car drivers and sitting at an intersection without a car stopped behind you with your bike in neutral directly contradicts what is taught in street survival motorcycle courses.

Finally, in 50 years I've never had a car or bike damaged by leaving it in gear with the clutch in until there is someone stopped behind me. But that practice has saved my hide twice. And if I'm about to be rear ended in the future I won't be "charging blindly into an intersection", I will have my eyes open and I'll get out of the way as best I can. The last thing I'll care about is liability. Most of us would rather be at fault and alive than ticket free and dead. In this case, what I have relayed here is not JMO, it's the instruction riders receive in street survival courses. Cheers.

Chip
This makes alot of sense to me. Chip, thank you for sharing the story about your Mom - sometimes those sad but true stories clearly "illuminate" an issue.

In the last week alone, I've found myself doing just this - putting the CB in neutral at a light and taking my hands off the handlebar. I will not be doing this any longer. Thing is, I knew this - but I'm older now and haven't been reminded of this important defensive driving technique. So Chip, appreciate the reminder.

[DGShannon_imp]

You should always keep it in gear when stopped at a light in case you have to get quickly out of the way.

Disagree. If in a hypothetical, someone is bearing down on you...you're not much better off charging blindly into an intersection against the light. And in fact you'd open YOURSELF to liability...instead of that tractor-trailer coming up on you, YOU YOURSELF are now the cause of the accident - by running the stoplight. Which is gonna affect insurance payout, who pays what - and will keep you from suing for damages from any other party.

And anyway, the injuries from a stopping vehicle striking your rear are probably going to be far less than being hit broadside by a vehicle which was NOT stopping and maybe didn't even have time to react.

Keeping the clutch in and a gear engaged, in a car, is hard on the clutch throwout bearing. I don't know the mechanical composition of a motorcycle wet clutch pack; but it's quite possible there's a similar source of wear that could eventually take the clutch out prematurely.

Gentlemen,

Couldn't disagree more with this. I'm coming up on nearly 50 accident free years riding on the street and twice I've had to escape when I was going to be rear ended. Being ready to get out of the way doesn't mean "charging blindly into an intersection", that's a false choice. If there are one or more cars stopped at an intersection a rider should always stop behind a car and to the side such that he can quickly accelerate between or beside that car and let the auto take the hit. Plus that car in front of you is a lot more visible than a bike. If no cars are at the intersection I still don't relax and take my bike out of gear until there is a car stopped behind me.

Late in her life my dear mother rear ended a motorcycle that was stopped at a newly installed freeway on ramp red light. He was sitting there not paying attention to his rear view mirror and there was plenty of room for him to get out of the way. Still, that accident was my mothers fault and the damage to the bike and rider were horrible (he survived) and the stress of the lawsuit killed my elderly mom 6 months later.

Riding on the street is deadly serious business and it's not good enough to "not be at fault". A rider needs to prevent accidents caused by car drivers and sitting at an intersection without a car stopped behind you with your bike in neutral directly contradicts what is taught in street survival motorcycle courses.

Finally, in 50 years I've never had a car or bike damaged by leaving it in gear with the clutch in until there is someone stopped behind me. But that practice has saved my hide twice. And if I'm about to be rear ended in the future I won't be "charging blindly into an intersection", I will have my eyes open and I'll get out of the way as best I can. The last thing I'll care about is liability. Most of us would rather be at fault and alive than ticket free and dead. In this case, what I have relayed here is not JMO, it's the instruction riders receive in street survival courses. Cheers.

Chip

Gentlemen,

Couldn't disagree more with this. I'm coming up on nearly 50 accident free years riding on the street and twice I've had to escape when I was going to be rear ended. Being ready to get out of the way doesn't mean "charging blindly into an intersection", that's a false choice. If there are one or more cars stopped at an intersection a rider should always stop behind a car and to the side such that he can quickly accelerate between or beside that car and let the auto take the hit. Plus that car in front of you is a lot more visible than a bike. If no cars are at the intersection I still don't relax and take my bike out of gear until there is a car stopped behind me.

Late in her life my dear mother rear ended a motorcycle that was stopped at a newly installed freeway on ramp red light. He was sitting there not paying attention to his rear view mirror and there was plenty of room for him to get out of the way. Still, that accident was my mothers fault and the damage to the bike and rider were horrible (he survived) and the stress of the lawsuit killed my elderly mom 6 months later.

Riding on the street is deadly serious business and it's not good enough to "not be at fault". A rider needs to prevent accidents caused by car drivers and sitting at an intersection without a car stopped behind you with your bike in neutral directly contradicts what is taught in street survival motorcycle courses.

Finally, in 50 years I've never had a car or bike damaged by leaving it in gear with the clutch in until there is someone stopped behind me. But that practice has saved my hide twice. And if I'm about to be rear ended in the future I won't be "charging blindly into an intersection", I will have my eyes open and I'll get out of the way as best I can. The last thing I'll care about is liability. Most of us would rather be at fault and alive than ticket free and dead. In this case, what I have relayed here is not JMO, it's the instruction riders receive in street survival courses. Cheers.

Chip
This makes alot of sense to me. Chip, thank you for sharing the story about your Mom - sometimes those sad but true stories clearly "illuminate" an issue.

In the last week alone, I've found myself doing just this - putting the CB in neutral at a light and taking my hands off the handlebar. I will not be doing this any longer. Thing is, I knew this - but I'm older now and haven't been reminded of this important defensive driving technique. So Chip, appreciate the reminder.

Regardless of what folks practice regarding in gear, or not, the main point in my mind, and as Chip mentioned, is what you do with your rear view mirrors. Watching the cars approaching behind you, and having a predetermined escape plan ready to execute is a best practice. Once I am sure that a couple of cars have stopped behind me, I will often shift into neutral and rest my arms and hands. Still probably not the safest, but you have a certain amount of impact buffer. I still keep a check on my mirrors, as the goober behind you not fully holding their brake, and rolling into you as they play on their phone, is still a distinct possibility.

[emptysea]

After re-reading this thread, it looks to me like the consensus is that:
a) The clunk (or thunk or clank or thwak) could quite possibly normal, but
b) If JPT is concerned that it is not normal, he should bring it to the dealer to have a look-see, and
c) If he comes to a controlled intersection, he is safest by keeping the bike in gear and his eyes on his mirrors, and
d) There is something called a clutch basket and some sort of magic happens inside it that causes the bike to move forward and may also make a sound which is generally harmless. and lastly (though perhpas not a consensus),
e) JPT ought to get a smartphone and/or a video camera so that we can see (and possibly hear) more of his CB1100 adventures.

[JustPassinThru_imp]

That's a good idea, Randy. Unfortunately I don't have a smartphone or video camera.

I could ask around; but most of the people I know and work with out here are busy with their own families. A few ride, but Harleys are the norm here...not a lot of commonality.

I'm a new guy in town...came from another employer in the industry; so it's not like I can start dialing from my school-reunion list.

I may have farkled it up just tonight - in the dark, moving it into the garage, looking for the kickstand, I hit the shifter instead. Engine idling, 1000 rpm...dumped into gear.

Seemed okay putting it away, but time will tell.

You're totally fine!!!

I had taken my bike to the dealer at 5xx miles for hard shifting. Dealer rode it and looked it over thoroughly with no issues to report. The physical size of this clutch is massive. If I remember right, it's a 7 disk and diameter of the basket is huge. Every time you shift gears, you have to instantaneously change the speed of the basket and friction plates. The engine is driving the clutch hub and steel plates. So the big thunk that you (and me and a few others hear) is just the transmission and basket having to get up to speed. Why it is more pronounced in 1st is beyond me. If I am rolling up in 2nd, clutch grabbed, come to a complete stop, and then hit 1st, it just ticks in. No thunk. It's only when I let everything get spun up. Your experience may be different, but I did have a dealer check mine out for banging shifts and they said it was totally fine.

In your "rolling up in 2nd" scenario, you have "clutch grabbed" for a good period of time. The transmissions main shaft is disconnected from the crankshaft, and turning relative to the slowing rear wheel, which eventually comes to a stop. Now, when you shift into first, the clutch basket and main shaft are not spinning, so no "thunk".

Alternatively, folks pull up at the light (or wherever), shift into neutral, and sit with the clutch lever out. This means that the engine is spinning the clutch basket, and thus the transmission main shaft. Light turns, they quickly pull in the clutch and immediately shift into first while the mass of the clutch basket and main shaft are still spinning. The "thunk" is all that mass coming to a halt as it becomes mechanically connected to the not spinning rear wheel. This shock wave gets transmitted through the drive chain, which is why its level of adjustment has a further audible effect.

Theoretically, if you were to pull in the clutch, and wait a moment, the clutch basket and main shaft would have time to spin down. And, to some degree it does, but typically not to zero as the oil between the clutch plates will typically still cause enough friction to turn the clutch basket some, thus you get a little thunk. The warmth and weight of your oil has an effect on how much thunk.

In your "rolling up in 2nd" scenario, you have "clutch grabbed" for a good period of time. The transmissions main shaft is disconnected from the crankshaft, and turning relative to the slowing rear wheel, which eventually comes to a stop. Now, when you shift into first, the clutch basket and main shaft are not spinning, so no "thunk".

Alternatively, folks pull up at the light (or wherever), shift into neutral, and sit with the clutch lever out. This means that the engine is spinning the clutch basket, and thus the transmission main shaft. Light turns, they quickly pull in the clutch and immediately shift into first while the mass of the clutch basket and main shaft are still spinning. The "thunk" is all that mass coming to a halt as it becomes mechanically connected to the not spinning rear wheel. This shock wave gets transmitted through the drive chain, which is why its level of adjustment has a further audible effect.

Theoretically, if you were to pull in the clutch, and wait a moment, the clutch basket and main shaft would have time to spin down. And, to some degree it does, but typically not to zero as the oil between the clutch plates will typically still cause enough friction to turn the clutch basket some, thus you get a little thunk. The warmth and weight of your oil has an effect on how much thunk.
This, and other explanations, are all good and logical. But not right in this situation.

First, my background. In a previous life (say, thirty years ago) I was a truck driver. I know my way around an unsynchronized Eaton-Fuller ten-speed.

So I know that it's important to engage the clutch and let the internals spin DOWN before going for a gear.

That's not what's happening. In experimentation, I've held the clutch in for more than a minute before going for a gear. On an engine fully up to operating temperature.

No difference. None.

Flatfooting it forward helps...if I can get some momentum going. Getting close to the speed that the engine idle would take it...my guess is, getting the driven internals up to the same speed as the input internals would be.

As to the other: We all have our driving styles. That includes what we do at lights. A number of folks think I'm wrong in what I do. I think they're wrong.

That's okay. We all have our styles. I'm sure we get different haircuts, too.

[DGShannon_imp]

That's a good idea, Randy. Unfortunately I don't have a smartphone or video camera.

I could ask around; but most of the people I know and work with out here are busy with their own families. A few ride, but Harleys are the norm here...not a lot of commonality.

I'm a new guy in town...came from another employer in the industry; so it's not like I can start dialing from my school-reunion list.

I may have farkled it up just tonight - in the dark, moving it into the garage, looking for the kickstand, I hit the shifter instead. Engine idling, 1000 rpm...dumped into gear.

Seemed okay putting it away, but time will tell.

You're totally fine!!!

I had taken my bike to the dealer at 5xx miles for hard shifting. Dealer rode it and looked it over thoroughly with no issues to report. The physical size of this clutch is massive. If I remember right, it's a 7 disk and diameter of the basket is huge. Every time you shift gears, you have to instantaneously change the speed of the basket and friction plates. The engine is driving the clutch hub and steel plates. So the big thunk that you (and me and a few others hear) is just the transmission and basket having to get up to speed. Why it is more pronounced in 1st is beyond me. If I am rolling up in 2nd, clutch grabbed, come to a complete stop, and then hit 1st, it just ticks in. No thunk. It's only when I let everything get spun up. Your experience may be different, but I did have a dealer check mine out for banging shifts and they said it was totally fine.

In your "rolling up in 2nd" scenario, you have "clutch grabbed" for a good period of time. The transmissions main shaft is disconnected from the crankshaft, and turning relative to the slowing rear wheel, which eventually comes to a stop. Now, when you shift into first, the clutch basket and main shaft are not spinning, so no "thunk".

Alternatively, folks pull up at the light (or wherever), shift into neutral, and sit with the clutch lever out. This means that the engine is spinning the clutch basket, and thus the transmission main shaft. Light turns, they quickly pull in the clutch and immediately shift into first while the mass of the clutch basket and main shaft are still spinning. The "thunk" is all that mass coming to a halt as it becomes mechanically connected to the not spinning rear wheel. This shock wave gets transmitted through the drive chain, which is why its level of adjustment has a further audible effect.

Theoretically, if you were to pull in the clutch, and wait a moment, the clutch basket and main shaft would have time to spin down. And, to some degree it does, but typically not to zero as the oil between the clutch plates will typically still cause enough friction to turn the clutch basket some, thus you get a little thunk. The warmth and weight of your oil has an effect on how much thunk.

In your "rolling up in 2nd" scenario, you have "clutch grabbed" for a good period of time. The transmissions main shaft is disconnected from the crankshaft, and turning relative to the slowing rear wheel, which eventually comes to a stop. Now, when you shift into first, the clutch basket and main shaft are not spinning, so no "thunk".

Alternatively, folks pull up at the light (or wherever), shift into neutral, and sit with the clutch lever out. This means that the engine is spinning the clutch basket, and thus the transmission main shaft. Light turns, they quickly pull in the clutch and immediately shift into first while the mass of the clutch basket and main shaft are still spinning. The "thunk" is all that mass coming to a halt as it becomes mechanically connected to the not spinning rear wheel. This shock wave gets transmitted through the drive chain, which is why its level of adjustment has a further audible effect.

Theoretically, if you were to pull in the clutch, and wait a moment, the clutch basket and main shaft would have time to spin down. And, to some degree it does, but typically not to zero as the oil between the clutch plates will typically still cause enough friction to turn the clutch basket some, thus you get a little thunk. The warmth and weight of your oil has an effect on how much thunk.
This, and other explanations, are all good and logical. But not right in this situation.

First, my background. In a previous life (say, thirty years ago) I was a truck driver. I know my way around an unsynchronized Eaton-Fuller ten-speed.

So I know that it's important to engage the clutch and let the internals spin DOWN before going for a gear.

That's not what's happening. In experimentation, I've held the clutch in for more than a minute before going for a gear. On an engine fully up to operating temperature.

No difference. None.

Flatfooting it forward helps...if I can get some momentum going. Getting close to the speed that the engine idle would take it...my guess is, getting the driven internals up to the same speed as the input internals would be.

As to the other: We all have our driving styles. That includes what we do at lights. A number of folks think I'm wrong in what I do. I think they're wrong.

That's okay. We all have our styles. I'm sure we get different haircuts, too.

You just described why my explanation is correct. As I said, depending on various factors, pulling in the clutch does NOT necessarily mean that the clutch basket and main shaft "spin DOWN" to zero rpm.

Look at your solution again... "Flatfooting it forward helps...if I can get some momentum going." All you are doing it bringing the rear wheel and transmission up to a speed that is more in sync with the main shaft and clutch basket that failed to "spin down" to zero RPM.

Even on a fully warm engine, with the clutch held in for an extended period, the friction caused by the fluid between the multiple clutch plates and discs can cause rotation. The clutch in a truck, or car, is an entirely different design than the clutch basket design in a motorcycle.

[nhawk7504_imp]

"the clunk is normal for all motorcycles, but can be minimized. chain adjustment, motor oil, clutch adjustment, and idle adjustment can all make this worse if they are off. the best way to avoid the clunk (and a safer way to ride) is to shift into 1st as you are rolling up to a stop - no clunk, and you're ready to pull away if you need to.

but that being said, the clunk is kind of interesting. when you are sitting motionless, idling in neutral with the clutch lever out, components of the drivetrain are spinning (becase the clutch is engaged, so the idling engine is turning the clutch, halfshaft, etc). if you pull in the clutch lever, these components will continue to spin from momentum, and so when you engage first gear you are connecting this spinning part of the drivetrain to the chain/rear wheel, which isn't spinning. hence, the clunk. if you rev the engine first while sitting in neutral with the clutch lever out, the clunk will be worse because you will have spun the drivetrain components faster.

if you have been sitting in neutral with the clutch lever out and need to shift to first, you can minimize the clunk by pausing between pulling in the clutch lever and engaging first... this gives the drivetrain components a chance to slow down or stop spinning. i usually shift into first when i'm pulling up to a stop, so it doesn't come up often, but i if i shift out of gear i usually pull in the clutch and then wait about 10 seconds before shifting into 1st. " - Honda 919 rider at Wristtwisters.com