ClassicVW_imp
Road warrior
Where is it said that they purposely put in more vibration? I'd like to read that.
valve timing inaccuracy?
- Thread starter VTR1000F_imp
- Start date
AndyHe_imp
Running like a top
Here's the quote that I think shows what they were trying to get to but perhaps there were some side-effects such as vibration at certain RPMs that some people might consider the downside of their design decisions. To OldF7Guy's point, the trade offs between rumble versus smoothness are quite subjective.
From Honda Motor Co.,Ltd.｜Honda Global Corporate Website ...
Sekiya:
On the hardware side, phased valve timing gives the engine its characteristic feel around the 3,000 rpm range. How did you create the engine's personality?
Minami:
Basically, straight-four engines run smooth as long as all four pistons move the same way. My initial thoughts were, to give the engine a deep rumble, we'd have to change the movement a bit.
We ended up shifting the valve timing of cylinders 1 and 2, compared to cylinders 3 and 4, and by continuing to change the gap, found the right combustion out-of-sync feel.
Sekiya:
Valve timing is usually changed or made variable to increase output, but your aim was completely different. Maybe the exact opposite of conventional wisdom.
From Honda Motor Co.,Ltd.｜Honda Global Corporate Website ...
Sekiya:
On the hardware side, phased valve timing gives the engine its characteristic feel around the 3,000 rpm range. How did you create the engine's personality?
Minami:
Basically, straight-four engines run smooth as long as all four pistons move the same way. My initial thoughts were, to give the engine a deep rumble, we'd have to change the movement a bit.
We ended up shifting the valve timing of cylinders 1 and 2, compared to cylinders 3 and 4, and by continuing to change the gap, found the right combustion out-of-sync feel.
Sekiya:
Valve timing is usually changed or made variable to increase output, but your aim was completely different. Maybe the exact opposite of conventional wisdom.
Honda, imo, made a mistake of trying to time in the old school feel. Really a dumb thing to do. You think so!!! You have been a member here a long time, its not like you weren't fore warned. Now you want to sell a bike you have owned for about a month? I don't think your going to be happy with the 2014 either, there identical.AndyHe_imp said:
Hm, looks like this generates some strong reactions and I can understand why. Some people really like the bike as it is, others wonder what it would have been like had Honda not made a few changes to make the bike more "retro".
While I agree that the bike is very different from a CB1000R which is why I like it and it doesn't have to be fully modern (such as the CBR's 124HP and much better suspension), I'm not quite sure I agree with the rational of taking a fine inline four and purposely making it not work as well as it could given it's design. It's one thing to say "how can we take this fine inline four and make it better" but another to say "this fine inline four is just too smooth... let's make it rougher" which is what they admit to in the engineer's viewpoint piece that Honda published.
Now I will complete admit I'm a noob here as I haven't even picked up my bike. But I will also say that from an engineer's viewpoint, I understand OldF7Guy's point that it may have been a mistake to go as far as putting in a camshaft that explicitly is suboptimal just for more vibration.
Andy,
Good luck with your new bike.
The quote (You Think So) is with direct agreement with what F7 said, why take perfect cam lobe and change it to increase engine noise and decrease HP, make no sense. We can also go a bit further regarding 18 inch wheels etc.
F7 is a nice guy, I was just saying what I'm sure others are thinking.
gossman_imp
Been there
Most riders complain that Honda engineers the soul out of their motorcycles. Now that they have designed some personality into one some are unhappy. Can't make everyone happy.....but I certainly am!
AndyHe_imp
Running like a top
I just returned from test riding the bike at the dealership. The bike does vibrate more than I would have expected at 3500-4000 RPM in second gear but I figure I typically won't be leaving at that RPM for long periods of time. I didn't get a chance to try it on the freeway. If I find it annoying after riding it many miles then I'll research replacing the intake camshaft with a balanced one as that shouldn't be impossible. Any decent speed shop should be able to do it with no problem.
Houtman_imp
Road warrior
Do give it enough time before you make changes , I have hardly any vibration on both of my CB 1100's
AndyHe_imp
Running like a top
Definitely will get some miles on it before I decide to do anything that radical.Houtman_imp said:
Insolentsquid_imp
Running like a top
Jeez there's some touchy people out there!
All he asked was "i wonder what the engine would be like if they hadn't designed some character into it" and all of a sudden he's being burned at the stake for blasphemy!
Let's face it, the bike is an oddball - instead of being designed to meet a demand in the market which would lead to a profitable line of sales, it seems to have been designed almost as an indulgence to one man's ideal of a superbike from his youth with the gnarly bits knocked off.
We saw, we test rode, we shared the indulgence.
I still smile when I imagine the conversation where the engine designers were told:
"Yes we KNOW that you can make this engine as smooth as a baby's bottom, but......."
All he asked was "i wonder what the engine would be like if they hadn't designed some character into it" and all of a sudden he's being burned at the stake for blasphemy!
Let's face it, the bike is an oddball - instead of being designed to meet a demand in the market which would lead to a profitable line of sales, it seems to have been designed almost as an indulgence to one man's ideal of a superbike from his youth with the gnarly bits knocked off.
We saw, we test rode, we shared the indulgence.
I still smile when I imagine the conversation where the engine designers were told:
"Yes we KNOW that you can make this engine as smooth as a baby's bottom, but......."
Ridem32_imp
Road warrior
Insolentsquid be careful what you say. You will get put in time out!! Lol. We all have different thoughts about the motor. To me the bike should run and ride and brake like a 13 or 14 model bike and look like a 70,s model we grew up on. So I had my ecm reflashed and added the farkles I want for my bike. It's mine! To me the motor should run as smooth as my new 13 model CB1000r. No need to feel viberation on a new bike when honda can produce the smoothest motors known to man.
The wait will tell the story. If a 15 model don't come out there want be many CB1100 bikes in the USA. And fewer deluxe models. Come on 30 years from now! My (2) grandsons will love ole poor grandpaw
The wait will tell the story. If a 15 model don't come out there want be many CB1100 bikes in the USA. And fewer deluxe models. Come on 30 years from now! My (2) grandsons will love ole poor grandpaw
Pterodactyl_imp
Road warrior
You know, I have serious doubts about these "conversations" with the design team. It's straight out of Honda PR. I think the concept of the CB1100 was knocked out on a Friday evening after a few stress levelling bottles of Saki, translated to a drawing on the back of a paper napkin during a recovery session on Saturday morning and was in production on Monday. I love it.Insolentsquid_imp said:
. Cheers
Elipten_imp
Road warrior
Probably more truth in that than anything else.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
emptysea
Road warrior
It seems pretty smooth to me regardless of Honda's intent (which, by the way, was not to make the CB "buzz"). I don't notice any buzzing at any RPM. In almost every review of this bike, they comment specifically on how smooth it is.
I guess if changing the timing added horsepower, I can see the point of it. However, the bike is plenty fast as is. There are lots of bikes that are faster, but few that feel as good to ride. The feel is what they engineered in, if they actually did. Questioning the valve timing seems to me to be the same as questioning why they chose it to make it air-cooled and the answers are the same...because they were attempting to capture a feeling. I think they did a fine job.
And here's a tech tip if you are getting a buzzing at 4000 rpm: step 1. twist throttle step 2. Keep twisting until the buzzing stops or you are going so fast that you stop noticing it. :biker:
I guess if changing the timing added horsepower, I can see the point of it. However, the bike is plenty fast as is. There are lots of bikes that are faster, but few that feel as good to ride. The feel is what they engineered in, if they actually did. Questioning the valve timing seems to me to be the same as questioning why they chose it to make it air-cooled and the answers are the same...because they were attempting to capture a feeling. I think they did a fine job.
And here's a tech tip if you are getting a buzzing at 4000 rpm: step 1. twist throttle step 2. Keep twisting until the buzzing stops or you are going so fast that you stop noticing it. :biker:
rdtshaw_imp
First service completed
I have to say, I didn't want the feel of a CBR, VFR, or a Nighthawk when I chose this bike. I love the "feel" of the motor in the CB. Just a little growl to it that says my heritage is that of a Honda CB. Now we have smooth fuel injected power delivery, a high tech gear box, and an updated gauge cluster (fuel gauge and gear indicator... love the fuel gauge.) No more out of sync carbs, cold morning warm ups, stuck/broken choke cables, and the touchy low end power band of the old carbed CB's. Remember 1st-2nd gear in parking lots at ~10 mph? POWERnopowerPOWERnopower, no in-between 
. It's not quite perfect yet, but much better.
I just love the bike. It feels and rides how it looks. The package is just wonderfully cohesive. I guess I hadn't really noticed the vibration or buzz, just feels like I'm riding a CB.
. It's not quite perfect yet, but much better.I just love the bike. It feels and rides how it looks. The package is just wonderfully cohesive. I guess I hadn't really noticed the vibration or buzz, just feels like I'm riding a CB.
Insolentsquid_imp
Running like a top
You know, I have serious doubts about these "conversations" with the design team. It's straight out of Honda PR. I think the concept of the CB1100 was knocked out on a Friday evening after a few stress levelling bottles of Saki, translated to a drawing on the back of a paper napkin during a recovery session on Saturday morning and was in production on Monday. I love it.Pterodactyl_imp said:You know, I have serious doubts about these "conversations" with the design team. It's straight out of Honda PR. I think the concept of the CB1100 was knocked out on a Friday evening after a few stress levelling bottles of Saki, translated to a drawing on the back of a paper napkin during a recovery session on Saturday morning and was in production on Monday. I love it.Insolentsquid_imp said:
Cheers
. Cheers
Ptero, you are a cynic.
I have written to Santa Claus; and for you my doubting friend, there will only be a lump of coal in your stocking this Christmas.
OldF7Guy_imp
Been there
You will never hear me complain about horsepower. I just think HOnda could have done a better job on being smother. Old 750s are literally as smooth as silk pretty much at any speed all the way to the 9K rev limiter. They just are. I have been there and done that.
The 1100s not so much but I love the low end torque. I need another gear and that means a 14.
The 1100s not so much but I love the low end torque. I need another gear and that means a 14.
Oh, well, Pterodactyl. That's good news. You're getting SOMETHING from Santa this year.Insolentsquid_imp said:You know, I have serious doubts about these "conversations" with the design team. It's straight out of Honda PR. I think the concept of the CB1100 was knocked out on a Friday evening after a few stress levelling bottles of Saki, translated to a drawing on the back of a paper napkin during a recovery session on Saturday morning and was in production on Monday. I love it.Pterodactyl_imp said:You know, I have serious doubts about these "conversations" with the design team. It's straight out of Honda PR. I think the concept of the CB1100 was knocked out on a Friday evening after a few stress levelling bottles of Saki, translated to a drawing on the back of a paper napkin during a recovery session on Saturday morning and was in production on Monday. I love it.Insolentsquid_imp said:
Cheers
Cheers
Ptero, you are a cynic.
I have written to Santa Claus; and for you my doubting friend, there will only be a lump of coal in your stocking this Christmas.
VTR1000F_imp
Running like a top
Thread starter
EmptySea_imp said:
You know, I have serious doubts about these "conversations" with the design team. It's straight out of Honda PR. I think the concept of the CB1100 was knocked out on a Friday evening after a few stress levelling bottles of Saki, translated to a drawing on the back of a paper napkin during a recovery session on Saturday morning and was in production on Monday. I love it.Insolentsquid_imp said:You know, I have serious doubts about these "conversations" with the design team. It's straight out of Honda PR. I think the concept of the CB1100 was knocked out on a Friday evening after a few stress levelling bottles of Saki, translated to a drawing on the back of a paper napkin during a recovery session on Saturday morning and was in production on Monday. I love it.Pterodactyl_imp said:You know, I have serious doubts about these "conversations" with the design team. It's straight out of Honda PR. I think the concept of the CB1100 was knocked out on a Friday evening after a few stress levelling bottles of Saki, translated to a drawing on the back of a paper napkin during a recovery session on Saturday morning and was in production on Monday. I love it.Insolentsquid_imp said:
Cheers
Cheers
Ptero, you are a cynic.
I have written to Santa Claus; and for you my doubting friend, there will only be a lump of coal in your stocking this Christmas.
. Cheers
Ptero, you are a cynic.
I have written to Santa Claus; and for you my doubting friend, there will only be a lump of coal in your stocking this Christmas. dammit
The Spaceman_imp
Road warrior
Two recent new motorcycles have been alleged to represent "what it would look like if the product had evolved over the decades." One is the Indian Scout, the other is the Duc Scrambler.
I think the CBR1000RR is what the CB750 looks like after decades of evolution, and the CB1100 represents what the CB750 looks like after the entire Honda engineering and design staff had been in a 40-year coma.
"And that's just the way we like it."
I think the CBR1000RR is what the CB750 looks like after decades of evolution, and the CB1100 represents what the CB750 looks like after the entire Honda engineering and design staff had been in a 40-year coma.
"And that's just the way we like it."
I can understand pondering what "might have been". I can understand wishing for something even better. That's human nature for you. Smooth to one person is boring to another. What some people find to be character others find to be irritating. The CB1100 is what it is, and purposely so according to Honda. The only mistake here is if someone bought the bike despite it's character, shortcomings, etc. and ended up finding that they didn't enjoy the bike. That happens with all bikes, not just the CB1100.
Now here is some food for thought: at some point down the road all motorcycles will probably be electric and redefine what smooth can really be.
Now here is some food for thought: at some point down the road all motorcycles will probably be electric and redefine what smooth can really be.
Pterodactyl_imp
Road warrior
Very true Guth. They are already here and I believe development will continue at an exponential rate. The hold ups are obvious, power pack technology and the means of quick charge or replacement. Maybe a common standard as well. Remember Beta versus VHS and other similar fiascos.Guth_imp said:
The advantages are equally as obvious. Lower maintenance costs, super smooth and the big clinchers, smoking hot acceleration and big power. Of course a fly in the ointment might be the PC brigade. One Aussie Assistant Police Commissioner has already gone public with his opposition to the new super Kwaka. "Too dangerous", "That power is not required" ........ ad nauseam.
In any case not of any practical interest to me. As I get older the latent Luddite in me gets stronger. I don't want super smooth. I want noise and a vibration that a central nervous system, severely degraded by age and substance abuse, can still detect. The CB will truly be my "Last Blast", both by name and nature. I love it.
Cheers
Cheers
